Pretty stunned by how crowded Italy has become

I think you've nailed it in that last sentence: depends when the cruise chips are in port. I found Venice unbelievably crowded on my first visit in September 2007 but not as bad last May as I remembered. Could well have been the same factor: fewer cruise ships docked. I visited the CT last May too (third visit) - didn't' seem as bad as the second time in September 2011.

All of Europe seems to be getting more touristy, though. I just visited Portugal last month - first visit, but it felt very touristy to me, especially Lisbon. Public transportation was mobbed - trams were often so full it was impossible to get on. I understand they've seen a big uptick in tourism. Could be a side effect of a weak euro (til recently) and cheaper jet fuel prices (til recently) that seem to have brought down the cost to fly - plus the booming US economy that always encourages people to spend more on travel.

There are very nice places not on the tourist "A-List." The Isle of Wight. Bournemouth. Santa Margherita, It. Ventimiglia, It. Avignon, Fr. Maybe consider places not affected by cruise ships.

Yes, those cruise ships dock right next to the Vatican and Louvre, degorging those people, making France and Italy unbearably jammed. Give me a break. The world has changed. Billions of people had billions of babies who grew up, live in first world or countries that attained middle class, and are now lucky to do what we do. Yes, work arounds are needed because you’re right that sites are being loved to death. But it’s not from a couple cruise ships docked an hour away.

Go in early May late April or late September early October next time; or stop going to the same cliched places.

Aren't we all the "crowds" too in the eyes of others? 8-)

I don't have statistics to back me up, but I have read, in credible sources, and believe, that most of the tourists in Europe are other Europeans. Same with cruise ships. The assumption that the problem is Americans and Asians is only because they are more audible and visible.

I'm pretty amazed at the crowds whenever I go to Rome. I tend to zip in and out for a business lunch or to see a cousin. For what it's worth, New York is, too, around the tourist sites. (I never quite understood why people would gather around the stupid bull sculpture near Wall Street.)

Same with Italy—every first timer I know does the trilogy of Rome, Florence, Venice. Sure, they're interesting and there's lots to see. But those who do only that are missing out on why this country is fascinating—it's the people and the everyday landscape. It's a good idea to find a place outside of the trinity--Perugia, Bologna, Urbino, Lucca, Spoleto, to take a few examples. Maybe a beach town in Puglia or Sicily. My mother's family came from near Trapani and San Vito lo Capo is a beautiful place.

Once you're in a place, follow the Italian daily routine (without working, of course!). Get up early, go into a bar. Hear the people in the neighborhood greet one another and gossip. Then do your thing. Stop for a nice lunch somewhere or buy food at the market if you're staying in an apartment or house.

Take advantage of the after-lunch break. Relax, recharge. Then head out around 4 pm, look at some stuff. Head for a place that you know has a good aperitivo--have a drink and a snack. If the food offerings are really good, you can skip dinner. then you have the evening to walk around, go dancing, to a movie, etc. That rhythm really is a work of art—it's not always a bunch of monuments and museums.

I was struck by the same thing on this trip. The numbers are staggering for sure.

However I don’t recall the OP mentioning cruise ships at all...simply crowds. Many times more people arrive by Plane and train and tour bus on any given day than by cruise ship. In fact cruise ship arrivals only account for a small percentage of overall tourist numbers across the board.

To me the issue is pretty clear and it’s been growing for at least ten years. It is the success of globalization. We now live in a world where many millions more people can afford to travel. Not only that but two of the biggest countries, Russia and China have (for many years now) let their citizens travel freely and make it easy to get a passport (in relative terms). This was not the case even in the 1980’s.

Now I see Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese (from Taiwan as well as PRC) Russians, Ukrainians, SE Asians, Philippinos and many from countries in Africa. And the poster above was correct many many of the tourists one encounters are touring their own country. ( ie. Italians in Italy)

I think one answer will inevitably be to stagger group tours to important sights and limit their size. In other words say a 20 person limit with no more than xx number of tours per day staggered by hour.
And by group tour here I mean the local ones people sign up for to see the Colissuem or the cruise ship shore excursions or the RS tour.

Simply blaming the Cruise industry is missing the point and aiming at only a small part of the real problem.

"Cliched places"? That's not how I would characterize Rome, Florence and Venice.

Just wait. China in 2015 accounted for only about 7% of tourist arrivals in Italy and India didn't even make the top 15 countries.* As the income in those countries rise, they will want to experience what Conde Nast and the New York Times say middle class people should experience. The cruise companies are already ordering ships in anticipation of the Chinese cruise market.

Further crowding is also baked into human nature. We humans go where the other humans go, and we go where the information in our language is available. Just look at the titles of the questions on this forum for a sample.

*For comparison, the US was 2nd to Germany with less than 10%. The source was Wikipedia quoting the Italian National Tourist agency: ENIT.

As the saying goes, you aren't "stuck in" traffic, you are traffic.

We were in Rome in January of this year, and it was wonderful. The places I most wanted to see, the Capitoline Museum and Ostia Antica, we had almost entirely to ourselves. There were some more substantial crowds at some of the more popular sights, but nothing terribly obnoxious, for the most part.

We got very lucky with the weather, too: Sunny, daytime highs in the high 50s Fahrenheit, a bit chillier in the early mornings and late evenings, but nothing a sweater and jacket couldn't guard against. I much prefer that kind of weather to Mediterranean summer weather (not least because it means more layers of clothing to hide my wallet under).

Emma is right-while travelers from Asia are increasing, cheap flights and inexpensive lodging have made it easier for Westerners to take yearly or even several trips in one year to Europe-just read the postings.30 years ago Europe was less crowded but at least for middle class Americans going to Europe was still a once in a lifetime or big splurge. I don't recall anyone in my high school traveling to Europe except on exchange or for a graduation gift yet in my niece's high school teens travel every year overseas.

I usually travel in March and while there are school groups, tour groups are few and far between and residents seem a bit more relaxed. While the weather is not the best, I believe the trade off is worth it.

Yes, work arounds are needed because you’re right that sites are being loved to death. But it’s not from a couple cruise ships docked an hour away.

We took a wonderful evening stroll of Rome two Decembers ago, led by a great Walks of Italy guide. Rome was pretty busy, but it was the last Saturday before Christmas and she remarked it was mostly locals out shopping. This did lead to a discussion of tourists. She has been a tour guide in Rome for over 20 years. She said Rome in summer has become unbearable and she places the blame directly on the influx of passengers from cruise ships. It's not "a couple of cruise ships", I've seen aerial photos of Civitavecchia where I counted 12 cruise ships in port at one time. Let's say they average 2500 passengers each, that would be 30,000 passengers, most of whom will be traveling for a day trip to Rome.

She said it's not only quality, but quantity. The day trippers are under time pressure and she says they can get pretty aggressive. I haven't been on a big cruise ship, but based on my experiences with passengers on a river cruise and how they act at port, they are not the kind of people I want to spend time with. People who find taking a cruise on a big cruise ship have a different traveling philosophy than mine.

Ports are realizing that cruise ships have a negative economic impact. The passengers use resources but they don't add hardly anything to the economy of the port. Day trippers don't spend money on accommodations and their food purchases are minimal compared to tourists who stay for a few days.

Luckily there are alternatives. We travel during the shoulder and off seasons. We alternate between the usual suspects (Rome, Florence, London, Paris) and smaller, out of the way places.

Read these for a better understanding of tourism in general and cruise ships in particular:

From the BBC

From Green Global Travel

From the Guardian

From the Sun.

From the Huffington Post

I like to travel, but I'm aware that there is a growing problem related to travel. It is no better in some areas of the US, especially at the more popular national parks. I've been going to Florida since I was a little boy. 30 years ago we discovered a nice little area off 30a called Seaside. That entire area has been ruined by uncontrolled growth. We no longer go there. It is too painful.

We spent the morning at the Vatican today and I looked at my husband - after we finally squeezed and pushed and prodded our way out of the Sistine Chapel - and said “$?!#% that.”

It was disgusting. Some of these outrageously crowded places might need to consider mandatory reservations, and then limit the number of reservations. That was downright scary.

What has bothered me the most, however, is that people are only seeing things through the lens of their camera phone. Selfie sticks? “Instagram stars” striking a pose in St. Peter’s Basilica or on the steps of the Duomo? People snapping a picture of every painting at the Uffizi? I look around and my husband and I are the only people without our phones in our hands (and we are in our 30s.) It’s been a good reminder for us how important it is to unplug.

As I've stated ad nauseum on this forum--if you don't like crowds...go where they ain't or when they ain't. I've kvetched about our last two trips to Florence, Salerno, the A.C. and Rome, in late February/early March, saying it's too cold, rainy, whatever. And it wasn't even that bad--40's to 60, mostly dry but occasional rain & wind.

Would I trade those times for a summertime trip? Not on a bet. We absolutely exulted at having the run of Rome, especially on the weekdays. The A.C. was pretty much deserted, allowing us to revel in its beauty instead of bi-yatching about the crowds and heat. And Florence, while packed on the weekends, was quite peaceful otherwise.

Next trip we're probably going to chance (tourist-wise) flying a little closer to the sun in traveling late April, to get a little warmth for crissakes! But as far as crowds we'll probably be OK in either traveling down the Adriatic coast Venice to Lecce or along the western coast in Campania, Basilicata, Calabria & then Sicily. Not a ton of tourists find those runs attractive. I do.

There are thousands of small villages awaiting you, with plenty of astounding treasures. You could not pay me to go to CT again, but I'll be exploring all the places where the hordes are not--they will never get to them all!

For not crowded, there's a nice Italian organization for seeking under appreciated small towns if you'll be driving. http://borghipiubelliditalia.it/borghi/ The most beautiful villages of Italy is a membership group that the villages must qualify for and they are located all over Italy. The site describes each town with photos in EN and IT and has maps so you can easily add them to your itinerary. Some are wonderful, some are seriously underpopulated, a few are not so special, a few are popular (Vernazza). Most we've visited have no hotel or restaurant, however you can be (almost) sure there will not be a lot of tourists.

It’s very crowded because of all those migrants from far away countries coming by boat like in this photo

I like to go during "shoulder " season and I especially like to go to small villages that don't have much tourist traffic. I will plan for one or two "larger" cities per trip and the rest of the time I opt for small places. I spent several days in Poretta Terme and Gaggio Montano on one trip. About hour out of Bologna. Nice, little quiet towns...one with thermal baths, good restaurants, shady chairs outside the hotel to "people watch" and the last time I visited, I noticed the posters for the 10th Mountain Division that were having a reunion in the area.

It’s very crowded because of all those migrants from far away countries coming by boat like in this photo

LOL Roberto!

DougMac, you do realize one of the reasons Seaside started getting crowded was due to The Truman Show, right?

Another good reason to hate that idiot Jim Carey, along with his bimbo
wife.

Wow. Did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed? And just once I'd like to see the "bimbo" equivalent applied to males, it's a little overused for the ladies. By the way, Jim Carrey doesn't have a wife. And IMHO, he was pretty darn good in Truman Show. And Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. And many others. Of course this has nothing to do with Italy...but how the heck did this thread get to Jim Carrey bashing, I don't know...

Of course Italy is more crowded. When I was born 52 years ago there were about 4 billion people on this planet. Now, about 7 billion. Its only going to get worse! Everywhere, I might add!

My apologies to Agnes and the rest of you. I was already planning to delete my post. I won’t go into what set me off, but Jim and his former wife made some unsubstantiated claims that repeated debunked information that had the potential to cause harm. I’m sorry I went off, it is a sore subject.

As always, an interesting conversation!
One author's take on the subject?

"From the time of Cicero and Horace onwards, no one has ever visited Rome in summer unless he could go at no other time. In ancient days the wealthy Romans left the city for their villas by the sea or in the country... The Pope leads the way when he goes to his summer palace in the Alban Hills, and the well-to-do Romans follow, until by August Rome is a city in charge of seconds-in-command. For every Roman who leaves the city, however, at least a thousand visitors pile in; and they continue to do so throughout the hottest period of the year."

"The hurried tourist is not, as one might imagine, a modern phenomenon. Dr. John Moore, who was in Rome in 1792, mentions a go-ahead visitor who hired a guide, fast horses and a good carriage, and dashed around Rome methodically ticking off all the 'sights' as he passed them, and was able to say at the end of two days that he had seen everything... One sees the same thing today, when droves of tourists are driven through endless galleries by inexorable guides, and the moment comes when even the hardiest do not pretend to be intelligent or interested any more, but plod on with downcast eyes beneath the painted ceilings."

H.V. Morton, "In Search of Rome, " 1957

While il Papa (at least the current one) doesn't scurry off to cool his heels at Castel Gandolfo anymore, maybe there's nothing all that new about hit-and-run summer hordes? Aside from selfie sticks and cell phones, that is!! :O)

Travel has become more affordable for many people. Add to that, interest in travel has increased. A lot more Americans have passports now than 20-30 years ago. Istanbul is opening a new airport at the end of the year because the current one is too small (it's huge). London's Heathrow is overburdened and it looks like they are finally on the road to a new (controversial) runway, not to mention the other London airports that are picking up some of the traffic.

In recent years I've gone to Spain and Italy in February and March, when tourism is pretty low and so are prices, except for special events. But even Rome last year was surprisingly crowded - long lines at the Forum and the Vatican Museums, sold out walking tours. 3 years ago, I spent 2 weeks in Sicily April-May and there were no crowds anywhere. Then I went to Bologna, Assisi and Orvieto - no crowds, not even many day-trippers from Rome - but I was stunned by how crowded Florence was in mid-May. Last year, no crowds in Athens or the Peloponnese in late April-early May.

I feel sorry for the posters here who have to travel in summer because of work/school obligations.

Christopher Hibbert's fantastic book "Rome: The Biography of a City" includes a quote from a letter sent home by a 14th century visitor complaining Rome was far too crowded and was full of criminals trying to steal his money. Of course, that particular traveller made the mistake of going peak season during a pilgrimage and may not have worn a money-belt under his doublet.