Polizin Municipale - Violation

Tricia- Via Senese is a road in Florence, not a destination. Could you have taken Via Senese to the airport? Do you happen to have a record of when you checked in for your flight or when you returned the rental car?

I'd call a Hertz office here in the US to see if they can check in on this on your behalf.

Thanks, Ashley and Steve for all of your great ideas. I'm working on some of your suggested actions. If I find anything that would be beneficial to others, I'll put out another notice.

I received the same type of notice from Polizia Municipale just this week indicating that we had traveled on Via Senesa when the road is reserved to other vehicles and indicated by traffic signs. We did travel on Via Senese to get from Auto Europe to the super strada, using mapquest instructions. They have the correct date and approximate time we were on the road. It seems odd that this did not come through the car rental company as a speeding ticket did and I have no way to determine if this is a legitimate ticket or a scam.

Sounds like you might have traveled through a ZTL. See below for some previous discussion: http://www.ricksteves.com/graffiti/helpline/index.cfm?fuseaction=readtopic&topicID=28422&page=2

"It seems odd that this did not come through the car rental company as a speeding ticket did" The rental agency (Auto Europe, Hertz, etc.) reports you to the police as the one who drove the car that day (the day the car was photographed violating some law.) They give the police your name and address, based on the rental records. The ticket then comes from the police, not the rental company.

They are not scams - they are ZTL violations. Driving in restricted access zones without a permit. They are highly common. And yes, you are legally liable for them. As to what happens to those that refuse to pay for their violations, no one has ever really reported definitively. But maybe they are all rotting in some musty prison cell (ok that last part was a joke...)

I just received two violations: one for Via Senese and one for an area near Santa Maria Nouvella - near the Hertz return. This is my 5th Italy trip, but my first by car. My hotel was GREAT (Montebello Splendid) about sending the police a notice that I was just getting to the hotel and returning my car to Hertz. I guess they deal with ZTL issues all the time. But the police wrote back to the hotel and me to say these two tickets (@107 Euro's each) were for driving in restricted lanes for buses and emergency vehibles. They assured me that these lanes were well marked, but two of us were in the car - and we read Italian- did not see these signs. So, I paid the fines because I'll be going back to Italy I'm a wine writer and will be returning to Florence and Tuscany, but I will only have a car in the countryside. The train systems is great and it's not worth even RETURNING a car in any city there. Renter beware!

A similar thing happened to me in La Spezia as we were returning our rental car. They said we were speeding (possible). I figured we'd be going back to Italy in the future and, Italy being Italy, I paid the ticket. I contacted them by e-mail to ask if we could pay by credit card. No dice. I said I had no way to send euros to Italy and would they accept a check in dollars drawn on an American bank if I would include a copy of the current exchange rate from XE.com. This apparently satisfied them, although, Italy being Italy, they sent no receipt or confirmation. Basically, they've got you over a barrel. We also received a notice along with a separate bill from the car rental company. Since we booked our car through auto Europe I called them and they arranged to have that bill voided. Auto Europe is great. They always have the best rates and they are extremely helpful if there's a problem. Next time we will be very cautious about the speed limits but I don't know what you can do about nonexistent or obscure traffic signs.

I've read somewhere that pick pockets target tourists because tourists are never there to prosecute the pick pockets. Now it appears that police target tourists because tourists are never there to contest the citation. We're planning our 21 day trip to Milan, CT, Tuscany, Florence, Lucca, Parma, Milan in June. We'll have a car for 3 days, picking up in Lucca and dropping in Milan. I'm glad I'm taking the train to Lucca instead of picking up the car in Florence. Does this only happen in the tourist traps? Florence, for instance, probably Venice? If we get a ticket, what happens if we tell the police to piss off and we never drive in Italy again? Arrest warrant? If Italians get REALLY good at screwing tourists, tourists will stop going to Italy. Is that what they want?

"The train systems is great and it's not worth even RETURNING a car in any city there. Renter beware!" 'Nuff said! And yes, if you're caught driving a car around Venice, you'll most definitely get a ticket ;-)

"Now it appears that police target tourists because tourists are never there to contest the citation." Ted, these tickets are based on traffic camera photographs. There is no policeman who stops the car. And they do not "discriiminate" against tourists or target them. Anyone who drives into a ZTL or who commits a lane violation or speeds past a traffic camera will get photographed and a ticket will be sent. You only hear about the tourist stories cuz most of us here are tourists when in Italy. The Italians don't post their rants about traffic tickets on Rick Steves' website. FWIW, we picked up a car in Lucca, drove to Siena and back to Pisa, and never had a problem (or got a ticket).

Lola -- well said. Personally, I'm glad the Italians have ZTL's. If they didn't, places like downtown Florence would be total chaos.

A few things to add: These are Italian laws and are in place to limit horrific traffic in city centers, which is already bad enough. They are photo enforced and therefore non-discriminatory and far more Italians get these tickets than unaware American tourists. And while it can be tough reading the signs and navagating and not running over pedestrians or hitting the mopeds zooming by, you are still legally responsible for violating Italian traffic laws. Often the rental company will charge your credit card a seperate fee for providing your contact information to the police. So the charges add up fast. And most here report getting the tickets many months later.

"If we get a ticket, what happens if we tell the police to piss off and we never drive in Italy again? Arrest warrant?" Ted, the answer to this question based on my own experience and every other report I've read on the subject is....nothing. Even, in fact, for those who DO drive again in Italy.

Nicely put, Lola. And Eileen, me old BBQ buddy, And yes, if you're caught driving a car around Venice, you'll most definitely get a ticket, I hope that was tongue firmly in cheek due to the moisture content of the surroundings of Venice, but if you meant into and around I would firmly disagree. We drive to Venice nearly every year (and around much of the rest of central and northern Italy) and I have never had an Italian violation, ZTL, speeding, restricted lane or other. It really is important to research ZTLs first and be alert when driving. Being able to decipher signage is key, too.

Ted, As Lola so aptly mentioned, the ZTL Cameras are NOT there as a "cash cow" to victimize tourists. They are non-discriminatory and all drivers who violate the rules get "nicked" equally. That includes not only Italians (less likely as they know the rules and are familiar with the signs), but also others from within the E.U. Don't forget your I.D.P, as failure to produce that if requested can result in fines on the spot! If you tell the Police to "piss off" in that case, your rental car will be impounded (guess who'll be paying for that) and your vacation will become "unpleasant" in a hurry. Happy travels!

This big issue is that no body really knows long term consequences if you ignore a ticket. This long reach of the Italian law is relative new in the last couple of years and probably because the internet provides that long reach. And, of course, the internet could provide some very good record keeping in the future. If someone tells you to ignore because noting will happen is just their opinion -- could be correct and could be wrong. If they are wrong, it is only you who suffer. You have to make a personal call as no one here has a definite answer for you. I don't think you can argue the validity of the ticket unless Hertz misidentifies the operator of the vehicle at that time. Probably a long short -- damn computers. Good luck.

Yes, the ZTL's, like these in Rome, the in-town cameras, and the speed cameras on the autostrade are all non-discriminating... they just mechanically tag each violator. As mentioned, the locals know where the cameras and the ZTL's are, and thus are less likely to garner a fine. A little more discriminating are the Random Traffic Stops where you are selected and pulled over by a police officer. Regardless of how you receive a violation... it's a violation. There is no attempt by the Italian officials to target the tourist. These are not the speed traps of small-town-America legend. Legally, you are obligated to pay this fine just as you would pay for a moving violation in your hometown. It would be improper for any of us to advise otherwise, and not paying would be a personal choice. Fighting the tickets is often a losing battle (I have ONE win in the past 10 years) as the system is localized, and thus usually unique!

I would agree that computer technology IS improving in Italy and thus - in some near future time - they'll become more adept at tracking down this income source. Currently, the follow-up probably depends more on the locaiton of your violation. That will probably change as more communities become computerized. The Italian government has become quite frustrated with fines that have gone unpaid... and there have been a few newspaper articles about how to recover the revenue from unpaid tickets. Some are suggesting that the rental agencies will pay - and then charge your credit card. (not sure how legal that is?). Other's have mentioned treating the fine as an unpaid debt and reporting it to your national Credit Bureaus (that could get ugly). It will be interesting to see how Italy resolved the problem of unpaid fines - and collecting the"interest" charges some of these fines contain.

I received a ticket in Pisa several years ago. I didnt like it but paid it. I feel that if an Italian driver received a ticket in America I would expect him to pay it so I did the same.

"If we get a ticket, what happens if we tell the police to piss off..." That's what the Italians are doing LOL! Yes, Nigel - IN Venice, or ON Venice...! Unless you're delivering BBQ...;-) Although I have seen those UPS Smart cars on the islands...