Nov 29 article about traffic tickets & permits

To dispel that idea, car rental companies need to improve their disclosure and equip every vehicle with the necessary permits, so guests aren't broadsided with $800 bills after their European vacation.

I think Mr. Elliott knows not whereof he speaks. Advocating that all rental cars come with ZTL permits for every municipality in Italy is not only impractical, it would defeat the purpose of ZTL's, keeping unnecessary auto traffic out of the historic centers of Italian cities.

I don't think Rick Steves can be accused of keeping this a secret. It is a constant topic on this forum and noted on the website, https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/transportation/driving-europe-tips
and I would assume in the relevant guide books.

I read Christopher Elliott's articles quite often and he is usually quite good but in this case he missed the target.

Public transportation in Europe is so good there is really no good reason to rent a car.

If you don't drive, you won't have these problems.

after 15+ years on this site, it's occurred to me that people rent cars for one of three reasons:

1. To get anywhere in this country, you need a car. They think Europe is just like America. (They also believe everyone in Europe speaks lots of languages, including, universally, English. They never venture outside big cities and only stay in the Hilton - or similar.)

2. They don't understand the European transit systems and can't be bothered to learn.

3. They entertain a Walter Mitty race car driver fantasy and want to drive on Europes "no speed limit" highways.

Sorry, if you want to get to the small towns in Tuscany you need a car. Even RS recommends this. On our last 30 day trip to Italy we used a car for 12 days and public transportation for the rest of the days. No, I did not get any tickets for driving in a ZTL. I researched them ahead of time for the towns/cities for which we would have a car and knew where to park outside the ZTL.

What a stupid article.

Many cities in California (including my own) have traffic cameras at street lights. You receive the ticket on the mail if you run a red light It happened recently to my brother in law).

As an Italian citizen I demand that the Italian diplomats intercede on my behalf with the Fremont government officials and allow me to break the law on account of unfamiliarity with the odd American signage.

From the article:

It might be helpful for our diplomats to start a high-level conversation with the authorities who eagerly install these cameras and reap the profits from clueless American motorists visiting their country.

I am quite certain our diplomatic corp has more on the agenda than negotiating uninformed Amercians out of traffic fines. This is an issue of personal responsibility. The people who travel to Europe without ever picking up a guidebook continues to astound me.

Seriously, does anyone think that the cameras are there to make money off the tourists? That just doesn't make sense. I've heard a few stories of speed traps in rural America to increase local revenues and, at least in Chicago, traffic cops who have citation quotas, but even they aren't targeting a very small percentage of the driving population of an area.

It's irresponsible to drive a car anywhere without knowing the local rules of the road. I think it's great that governments recognize foreign driver's licenses and permit us to drive in their countries without passing any tests.

Any city has its own rules. Just for your info, these are the rules for Florence: each resident family gets a permit (access+parking). Permits are valid only for the residence sector - if you are living in via S. Gallo you don't have access to Oltrarno. Addresses outside the city walls circle do not get permits. Additional resident permits are issued only if you have a private parking place and so are good only for access and not for parking.
Everybody can get a temporary, 1-hour permit with advance registration and costing a few euros. Loading and unloading should be done before 9am, but often this is not enforceable and guards turn a blind eye. Business with addresses in ZTL can get permits (but only a few per business unit), as well as professionals needing access (say, physicians or plumbers or electricians). Garages within ZTL can authorize accesses, and hotels can authorize loading/unloading for limited times. Handicapped people may get permits (if you have an handicapped permit issued outside Florence you should phone in advance and register), as well as people with medical conditions or pregnant women.
As strict as these rules may appear, the center is still too crowded with cars.

A side note: no matter if you have a permission, some lanes are reserved to buses and driving such lanes gets you a fine at any time and in any case. When you see a no access sign in Florence and you cannot understand the conditions, you simple drive away and ask questions later.

It might be helpful for our diplomats to start a high-level conversation with the authorities who eagerly install these cameras and reap the profits from clueless American motorists visiting their country.

Dear God, I don't like to use the phrase "Ugly American", but a sentence like that...

Every time I see someone drive 50 mph on a residential street in this part of the US, I yearn for traffic cameras and ZTLs!

Another problem for our American diplomats: I read on the Canadian Automobile Association website that Georgia State police have been ticketing Quebec drivers because their driver's licenses are not in English and they didn't have an IDP.
Sacre Bleu, y'all.

The residential parking permit is becoming common in U.S. cities, and works pretty much the same way as ztl's except you actually are allowed limited time. For example, in the three Bay Area cities I know best, S.F., Oakland, and Berkeley, residents of some neighborhoods have applied to have residential parking. They buy annual permits. Others are limited to two hours, nights and weekends excepted. The fines can be stiff. The purpose is to make living a bit easier for people in densely populated urban neighborhoods. In Europe there is also the concern over damage to ancient buildings from exhaust fumes. The notion that our diplomats would intervene to protect American traffic law breakers is flat out silly. BTW, the figure of $800, quoted above, must arise from multiple infractions.

Me thinks the article was actually written by the comedian, Chris Elliot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kcobKdm6LI

Tom_MN:

I can assure most European countries do. I have lots of friends in Italy who got ticketed outside of Italy, sometimes for exceeding speed just a few km above the limit. I've also looked at several Italian and European forums, and local authorities (and their cameras) in all European countries are merciless with everybody, so not just Americans.

Generally rental cars are leased in the same country where the infraction occurs, therefore it's easier to identify the driver who committed the infraction. There are however lots of Europeans who travel across the borders with their own cars.

As a result many infractions committed by Out-of-State tourists (for example Germans driving their own car in Italy) go unpaid simply because the drivers are difficult to identify with the "out of State" Departments of Motor Vehicle or simply because, even when identified, the unpaid fine is difficult to legally enforce in a jurisdiction across the border. An Italian judge can't send the Carabinieri to seize a vehicle from a Berliner or a Parisian in their respective States.

If you go on an Italian autostrada, you will notice that those who disregard the 130km/h (81 mph) speed limit generally have non-Italian license plates. It is a known fact that most Romanian immigrant residents don't bother to register their cars with an Italian plate so that they can disregard the laws, since they will never pay the fines.

Several articles in Italian newspapers indicate that only 20 to 30% of foreign drivers end up paying the fines, and often they do so out of their good conscience, because there are really no robust laws to enforce payment once the driver is across the border back home.

As a result many infractions committed by Out-of-State tourists (for
example Germans driving their own car in Italy) go unpaid simply
because the drivers are difficult to identify with the "out of State"
Departments of Motor Vehicle or simply because, even when identified,
the unpaid fine is difficult to legally enforce in a jurisdiction
across the border. An Italian judge can't send the Carabinieri to
seize a vehicle from a Berliner or a Parisian in their respective
States.

Italy, Germany and France are all member states of the EU, so Directive 2011/82/EU is in effect. If will be enforced by Germany or France as if it was a national fine.

I will be driving in Italy in less than a week. I don't want to jinx myself with my response here, but there's a plethora of information regarding Italian rules of the road available on the internet.

I've done research on the subject. I can recognize a ZTL sign and know to not go beyond it. I have studied driving on the Autostrada, including the different speed limits for different lanes. I know what a speed limit sign looks like and I plan to do my best to observe them, even at my own peril. I even know to put on the supplied vests when I step out of the car to take a countryside photo or if I have to check something on the vehicle.

I have driven successfully in Scotland, which required learning new signage and rules of the road (single track turnouts). I know Italy will be decidedly different, but being a safe, law abiding, defensive driver in the States with a touch of foreign driving experience, I feel fairly confident I can obey the traffic laws.

We are staying in rural Tuscany and feel a car is needed for access and flexibility. We have also studied public transportation and will avail ourselves of buses to reach major metropolitan areas.

Wish us luck!

It would impossible to get a rental vehicle all the necessary permits, like Elliott states, as permits are issued at local level, and a separate permit for every place would be needed.

By the way, I live in Florence, just a little out of the wall circle; my old father lives just a little within of the circle. So I do not have a ZTL permit and when I want to visit him I have to walk, use a bus, take a taxi or wait to drive till the next Sunday when the access is free. I do not understand on which ground a tourist on a rental car should deserve a better treatment than a local like me.

Italy, Germany and France are all member states of the EU, so Directive 2011/82/EU is in effect. If will be enforced by Germany or France as if it was a national fine.

Was this a joke or a real comment?

The Directive 2011/82/EU was annulled by the European Court of Justice in 2014.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_CJE-14-69_en.htm

In any case such Directive, even when it was valid, applies only to some types of offences (ZTL incursions are not included) and the directive was good in paper only because the procedures are very complex and the directive has no teeth and isn't enforceable in practice, so that most jurisdictions simply give up collecting. Even when they engage international collection agencies, the agencies can't really have those fines enforced in a foreign court of law, and can't do much more than harass the debtor and hope they finally give up and pay.
http://www.french-property.com/news/travel_france/cross_border_driving_offences/

Lee's comment "Public transportation in Europe is so good there is really no good reason to rent a car." I disagree. If you want to see Tuscany on your own timeline a car is the way to do it. There are many small towns in the region that are not served by public transportation. One would miss that experience without having a car.

The same author that wrote the "Stealth Traffic Tickets" article, also wrote one about "Is It Safe To Travel To Europe", and the conclusions seemed to be much the same as those of our esteemed travel guru who hosts this forum. Here's the article for those that are interested.....

http://elliott.org/blog/is-it-safe-to-travel-to-europe/

I thought the article did a good job of putting the risks in perspective.

paranoia at its prime

My advice to any American commentator or journalist who thinks European traffic rules are unfair and/or deceptive would be to first look at how civil forfeiture laws are used in the US by some authorities. Now there is something to be outraged about.

Paranoia strikes deep.
Into your mind it will creep.

For What It's Worth

I often read similar articles by Mr. Elliott and find many of them over the top and sensationalized. However, he does a great job in advocating for travelers when they have been wronged by airlines, car rental companies, hotels and so on.

Actually Jim there are very few places in Italy that are not served by any public transportation at all. Nearly all towns, except for the most secluded villages, will be served by at least buses.

But I agree that often that bus service is infrequent, therefore a car is the best choice for smaller towns and countryside.

Regarding the issue of camera enforced traffic violations, those fines are really easy to avoid: respect the speed limits and don't enter the ZTLs. Both are clearly signaled. I understand that the speed limit signs in Europe are just a number in a round sign (it doesn't say SPEED LIMIT). I also understand that the International NO VEHICLES ALLOWED sign is not used in America, however it is the responsibility of the visitor to learn those traffic signs, which, by the way, being based on often self explanatory symbols, require no language skills. All you have to do is color print this pamphlet from the US Army:
http://www.ansbach.army.mil/documents/EuropeanRoadSignsPamphlet.pdf

I've driven now in the UK, France and Italy and (luckily) never received a ticket. But that was before ZTLs were so widespread, so I fear them. Motorways are really not a big deal, drive slightly below the flow of traffic when you're not sure of the limit or haven't seen a sign recently.

I remember heading north on the autostrada in my little rental Ford towards Florence and all these large black German sedans flying by in the fast lane heading to visit their safe deposit boxes in Zurich. Just stay out of their way.

Man oh man - I have a former coworker who moved to Alberta (Fort Mac) and she is constantly getting tickets in the mail from speed cams. I know - you'd think she'd learn!

I was trying to figure out when we were driving in S France and constantly being tailgated about all the warnings about speeding - I guess locals are either aware of where the cams are or don't care, or maybe they are a little more lenient with how many km's over the limit you can do. Here in Nova Scotia, on the highways you can pretty much go 10km over the limit without fear of a ticket. And pretty much because even if you do go 10 over, there are a lot of others doing 15-20km over. Folks here are complaining about some of our highways needing to be twinned (they do - the carnage is horrible) but don't want to have to pay tolls to fund them...I figure - put up some speed cams, put all the fines towards highway building - man, we'd have new highways in a year! lol

As a European, I just don't know what to say about an article like this. It's just one big excuse to not follow the rules of a country you are visiting, blaming everything on hotels, travel agents etc. not informing tourists about the rules. Hello, if you rent a car in another country, it's you own responsibility to make sure you follow the rules! And if not, face the consequenses, don't run home asking the US diplomat corps to bail you out.
I can't help but laugh at the "advice" that is given in the end of the article:

"Do the math. Pay particular attention to the difference between kilometers and miles (a mile is about 1.6 kilometers), and slow down unless you want a speeding ticket!"

As if a European rental car would have a spedometer in miles per hour! Besides nothing says traffic safety more than a driver starring into a calculator.
Just follow the speed limit if you want to avoid a ticket!

For one thing I think it's good that rental agencies charge the culprits directly, otherwise these people could break the rules without consequences. AFAIK traffic cops here in Denmark will charge a foreign citizen on the spot if caught in a traffic violation, even taking tham to the nearest bank.

The American Embassy's unpaid congestion charge bill in London is over £10M. TfL is looking to take it to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, but they probably have more pressing cases.

Cameras are used a lot in California for street light violations. Most major intersections in my city are enforced by high def cameras.

I agree that one year to notify is a long time. But the alternative for the authorities was to require the local rental agency to pay the fine, which then will put the charge on your credit card as per the rental contract (with a fee). At least now you can choose not to pay if you don't plan to visit those countries again for 5 years (and if you don't mind to be harassed by the credit collectors, who however won't likely be able to have the debt recognized in an American court).

are we sure these debts wouldn't be recognized in an American Court? And even if they aren't, an American debt collection company can squeeze you hard and long enough along the way to make you pay just to have them disappear.

Check out the whole concept of "zombie debt" if you think these companies are concerned about playing by the rules.

Phred:

From what I have read, the international collection companies used by the Italian local authorities aren't even trying to have those debts recognized in foreign courts. Not only they aren't doing it in North America, but not even in the EU. Presumably because the amount to be collected from these fines is never large enough to justify the cost of involving the courts.

But you are right that collection companies often engage in harassing tactics that are outright illegal in order to make you pay. There was a special report on NPR ("Fresh Air"with Terri Gross) just a few months ago that shed some light on that industry. Some of those companies are run by thugs and mobsters who often engage in extortionary practices that put Cosa Nostra to shame.
http://www.npr.org/2014/10/09/354846672/bad-paper-explores-the-underworld-of-debt-collection

Roberto,

The thugs described in that article sound like they’re operating much the same as scammers that are operating a phone scam in this area right now. The ruse they’re using at the moment involves calling someone and telling them that either their electric bill is overdue and power will be cut off or they'll be arrested unless they pay, or they owe money to the tax man and will be arrested unless they pay. In both cases, the scammers can be very aggressive and threatening, and old people especially are often taken in by this.

The other one that’s also common these days is the “grandson” scam. An older person gets called, supposedly by a Lawyer, and told their grandson has been arrested in some far away place. They’re instructed to send money for “Bail”, and typically receive further calls because of additional fees that must be paid. It's surprising how many people fall for this!

Those who know the facts and stop to think about this for a minute, are not usually affected by any of these, especially as there are a lot of discrepancies in the stories being used by the scammers. For example, CRA (the tax man) does not arrest people for non-payment of taxes, but rather just seizes their bank accounts (they have a lot of power).

After a return from France last year it was 3 months later I got a bill in the mail for speeding 4 kph over the limit. I paid it. I am now awaiting my Italy fines. It will probably be a year from now. The in-car GPS took me up some bus-only lanes.