Northern Italy in 15 days

Time required in a town depends on your interests. First, are there museums you want to go to? Second, how many churches will you visit for more than a few minutes? Many important churches have audio guides you can rent. In my experience, using an audio guide substantially increases the amount of time I spend at a sight. Third, how much time do you think you'll want for just wandering around the historic district, absorbing the atmosphere? This can be one hour for a quick overview or it can by much, much longer if you're like me and try to walk every street in the centro storico.

Which of the places you listed are absolute musts? I'm guessing those would be Venice and Florence.

How many nights will you have in Europe? The number of really usable days is one less than the number of nights, because that first day will be jetlagged. So do you have 13 truly usable days, 14 or 15?

Pisa is a quick partial-day side-trip from Florence. San Marino is geographically inconvenient, and I'd suggest skipping it on this trip.

Genoa, Milan and Turin are rather large cities that will take some time to navigate irrespective of how many sights you plan to see. You can probably get more sightseeing done in one day in smaller cities like Verona and Padua. Milan and (especially) Turin are sort of out of the way even if you manage to include the Cinque Terre. Of course, Milan might turn out to be a good city to fly home from.

Since you enjoy smaller cities, I want to mention a place that is geographically convenient, given other points of interest to you: Vicenza has a small-town feel within its historic district and is located between Padua and Verona.

And many travelers who visit Florence spend a day or two making side-trips to some of the surrounding small towns. That would add to the time needed in Florence, of course.

Finally, just in case Milan makes it into your final itinerary: Bergamo is a rather short train ride from Milan and is a charming hill town, especially recommended if you don't have time for any of the Tuscan hill towns while you're in Florence.

Edited to add:

I should have mentioned that many travelers squeeze Pisa and Lucca into one day-trip out of Florence. Lucca (town with walkable wall, not as tourist-clogged as Pisa) needs substantially more time than Pisa, and one clever poster here suggested going to Lucca first and hitting Pisa in mid-afternoon, as the bus tours are beginning to depart. That sounds better that tackling Pisa at mid-morning along with the throngs.

Thanks Acraven,

Not counting the departure day we will have 15 usable days to travel. But we have to get back to Nice for the return flight. I already had Bergamo on my list, but just looked up Lucca and Vincenza. Lucca seems like a place we should not miss.
If we leave Genoa in the morning, have a nice drive through Cinque Terrre, we can end up in Lucca for the afternoon/evening. And the following morning drive to Florence with a stop in Pisa to see the tower. I think Venice and Florence deserve 2 days to visit museums, wander the streets and relax with a coffee. I have been though Milan, so that will probably be just a day with a side trip to Como, if time allows.

San Marino will be weather dependent. I was there as a kid and remember being above the clouds :-) But you're right, it is out of the way.

Would you spend more than a day in Turin or Genoa?

It hadn't registered with me that you were driving (I overlooked that in your original post). Check your potential driving times on ViaMichelin to be sure you are not over-reaching. Don't forget that you will spend time navigating and finding parking. And you must be very careful about keeping your valuables secure if you stop for a meal or sightseeing on the days you're changing hotels.

It is impossible to "drive through" the Cinque Terre. You'll need to park the car somewhere and take the train or (slower, and weather-dependent) a boat.

I hate-hate-hate one-night stops. Checking in and out of hotels is a terrible time-waster. I especially hate one-night stops in large cities because (as I mentioned earlier) you generally spend more time getting yourself settled than in a small town. Parking can be costly, and if you get lost and become distracted, you may wander into a ZTL (no-entry zone for non-residents) and receive one or more very costly traffic tickets after returning home.

Therefore, I would simply not go to Genoa or Turin if I were not spending at least two nights in the city (and preferably three or four nights). I make that work, even for cities that don't have more than about a day's worth of sights I'm intent on seeing, by planning side-trips. For example, I'd consider basing myself in Padua and visiting Ferrara, Verona and Vicenza from there.

I've never been to Turin and cannot comment on it beyond saying that I've recently come to understand that there is much of interest there, and it will be on my itinerary the next time I'm in northern Italy. I passed through Genoa 25-30 years ago and enjoyed walking around the historic area. Unfortunately, I don't remember any details.

Dear Acraven,

Your point about one-nighters is well taken. But I did not know about not driving through Cinque Terre and ZTL, so that is super helpful to know. Thank you.

And thank you for the ViaMichelin site suggestion. I've been using GoogleMaps for that and this will be a good comparison.

Having said that, one last question. Driving is a choice of convenience, flexibility, and, of course, cost. So considering our Nice-to-Nice circular tour, would you drive or use trains/buses instead?

Full disclosure: I've never driven in Europe. I did once navigate for someone else, but that was just for about 6 days, and it was in Germany/Switzerland. So I'm not the person to answer that question.

But I will make some general comments:

You really need to know your itinerary (not necessarily down to the gnat's eyelash) in order to make that decision.

There are rail segments that are much faster than driving, and there's no chance of traffic fines if you're sitting on a train. Plus everyone can pay attention to the scenery. And you can take food with you and eat it on the train, which saves time on busy days. And: no parking charges.

There are itineraries for which a car is a real advantage--a circuit of small Tuscan hill towns or of the perched villages in Provence, for example. So far, your trip doesn't seem to fall in that category.

If "we" is just two people, the train may well be less expensive.

The economics will be affected by how quickly you can pin down your itinerary enough to select the precise train you want to take on each segment that offers Frecce or other fast service; many of your legs may require using regional trains, and timing doesn't matter there. I always buy train/bus tickets as I go, but it does cost more to buy at the last minute if you want to take fast trains wherever possible, which most tourists do.

You can take a look at walk-up fares (for tomorrow's date) and buy-in-advance fares (for your dates or as late as you can find tickets listed) on the TrenItalia website. For example, the Thello run from Nice to Milan costs 45 euros one-way if you travel tomorrow but only 15 euros (a screaming bargain) if you travel on May 19. Obviously, 30 euros extra per person (one-way) will not break the bank, but that's a lot of gelato.

Thank you. "We" is in fact two people :-) Looking at the lowest prices for trains and not considering city buses and day trips (Cinque Terre, Como, San Marino, etc), the cost seems approximately the same. Roughly €300 for two for trains. Economy car may run just slightly less. Need, of course, to consider cost of gas and parking vs. convenience of coming and going as we please. I know parking in Venice is at least €12 plus local transit. The car travel time does seem slightly longer in some places, but not enough to worry about it. I know that train rides there offer amazing scenery. So lots to consider.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help.

You may also hit some toll roads. Via Michelin makes an attempt to project fuel costs and toll charges along with mileage.

I'm doubtful about that parking quote for Venice, but what do I know?

My friends paid €24/day for parking, two years ago.

Also, you are listing eleven cities (some of them large) in your original list, in 14 days.

Here is where I read about the €12 Venice parking:

http://www.reidsitaly.com/destinations/veneto/venice/planning/to_by_car.htm

They list 3 parking lots at different prices and a 7 minute bus ride (€1.30) from the cheapest/farthest.

I know it is an aggressive itinerary, but some of the "drive through" places (Lake Como, Cinque Terre, San Marino) may fall off.

The parking link isn't working for me; I was curious and wanted to check it out.

The issue with your drive-throughs is that they are not on the direct driving path between your other stops. And a car is useful for moseying aroung small towns, but even with some trimming of destinations it doesn't appear that you will have any extra time for dallying. Your destinations are all served by trains, so it's hard to see where a car would be an advantage.

There's LOTS to see in Florence and Venice if you like art and churches. I'd budget at least two nights for each, but both would support three. I agree with acraven that you should pick a town in the Veneto region to stay for at least three nights, and visit Ferrara, Padua and Verona from there. Unless there are lots of specific things you want to see in Milan, you could spend one night there. I have not visited the other places on your bucket list, so can't comment. The decision about whether to drive or take public transit in Italy is very much a YMMV. I have a friend who loves driving in Italy. He drove a delivery van in a large city for a few years, and he loves being freed from the shackles of the more polite driving culture in our part of the states. If this is you, or your traveling companion, by all means rent a car. If it is not, consider that train service to most of the places you're visiting is very frequent, convenient, low stress and usually on time. Cars may allow flexibility, but you have to find a place to park them, plot your routes into and out of the cities, avoid the ZTLs and co-exist with fast, aggressive drivers who - though not mean - are not particularly tolerant of tourists who drive slow. And if you need a car to get to an out-of-the-way place, you can always rent one for a day or two.

Sorry acraven, the link I posted earlier is missing an L at the end:
http://www.reidsitaly.com/destinations/veneto/venice/planning/to_by_car.html

I agree about the trains. The employ of the car is useful to me in that I don't have to carry my luggage everywhere in towns where I don't plan to spend the night. And as Mary Sue suspected, I am one of those people and enjoy driving in different countries. And I do enjoy the flexibility. Naturally there are countries where driving might just be suicidal. I doubt Italy is one of those :-)

But I also want to be pragmatic, thus all the questioning. Without calculating cost of local buses vs. parking and tolls, renting a car is just about the same as traveling by train for 2. This is considering renting an economy manual and 1500 km worth of gas. So still thinking about this.

And Mary Sue, thank you for the suggestion on the number of nights in those towns.

Day 1. Train- Nice to Sanremo
Pick up car. Drive to Genoa 2 hours. Visit Genoa. Drive to Monterosso 1:25.

Day 2. Cinque Terre

Day 3. Cinque Terre

Day 4. Drive to Lucca. 1:25 hr.

Day 5. Lucca.

Day 6. Drive Lucca-Milan. 2:48

Day 6. Drive Milan-Varenna 1:18

Day 7. Varenna.

Day 8. Varenna.

Day9. Varenna-Florence. 2:18.
Drop car.

Day 10 Florence.

Day 11. Florence.

Day12. Train Florence-Venice.
2:05 min.

Day 13. Venice.

Day 14. Venice

Day15. Fly Easyjet Venice-Nice.
1:20

By doing this you gain 2 days that would otherwise be spent driving the car back to Nice.

Thanks Gerri,

This gives me some food for thought. The more I read the more I realize that it is not really possible to see it all in one trip and I have left little time to chill. A couple of days at a place like Varenna might do us some good :-)

But it is challenging, after seeing beautiful pictures, to give up on some of these places. I may have to choose one between
Ferrara/Padua/Bergamo and Genoa/Turin/Lucca.

Aah, the 12-euro parking deal is in Mestre. Not what most of us think of as "Venice", but since you'd just be leaving the car there while visiting the city for a few days, the fact that you have to take a train or bus from Mestre to Venice proper wouldn't be a significant impediment. That seems like a smart solution. And you'll avoid driving on the causeway, where one of our other posters got a ticket for exceeding the speed limit only slightly.

These days those tickets have a sure way of finding you. I received one in the mail from Canberra 6 months after my trip. So no speeding :-)

Ok, if you want to spend the night in Genoa, then spend 2 in the Cinque Terre.

To see Pisa it's a short 30 min drive from Lucca.

Visit Ferrara from Florence on the way to Venice
You will need 2 tickets. 1 Florence-Ferrara. 1 Ferrara-Venice.

See Padua as a day trip from Venice. Another short 40min train ride.

Thanks Gerri and everyone. This gives me some good ideas.