This topic, like politics, seems to never "die" out. My experience was as follows: I rented a car also driven by a travel partner. Twice during a two day stay in Prato, my colleague drove into a "limited traffic" district going to and from our hotel in the city center of Prato. We were aware of traffic areas that were limited, but in our case (and confirmed by photos taken by the municipality's camera) warning signs were obscured behind wrappings concealing construction on a building we had passed. Per usual, 8 months later I was, as the renter of record first, charged for the two separate violations by Europcar (80 Euros) then were presented with a certified letter at our home address for fees beginning at 140 Euros apeice if paid promptly from the collection agency hired by Florence and Prato to demand payment from citizens abroad.
I prepaid the fees, but decided to appeal, in Italian (thank you Google Translate), to the Justice of the Peace in Prato. Emails were sent, the collection agency was informed, and I was emailed a date for the appeal (in Italian). This required an appeal mailed to Prato by "certified mail" which was a $25 USPS charge. (Mind you, Prato notifies you of information by certified "email" at a fraction of the cost).
I had anticipated that the Justice of the Peace would use my documents to support the appeal. I also sent documentation that I was staying in a nearby hotel hoping, as I had been told, that this would permit ingress and egress from the area using the limited traffic zones if needed. Months passed the "appeals" date. Finally, after emailing the Justice's office (to no avail), I wrote a letter to the city's mayor. This may have had an effect and my appeal was then heard. I received a resolution to my appeal in Italian a few days after mailing the mayor.
The appeal had been dismissed because I had prepaid. If you don't pay and appeal and lose the appeal you will be charged extra, according to the collection agency's version, up to 150% of your initial fines. If you plan to appeal, don't prepay the fine hoping you can reduce your fees if your appeal is successful. Given the amount of effort involved in the process and the responses I received from the Justice of the Peace's office, I question whether appeals would have been successful.
The website www.bella-toscana/traffic_violations_html has an interesting discussion of the number and costs to violaters and the income generated by some large cities (i.e. Florence). I can only guess the number of tourists from the USA who are a part of that number/cost.
I have no information on whether collection companies are able to collect these fees in the US, but the site above does give some information about that as well. I believe, and have tried to confirm, that bella-toscana is a tourist information site based in Italy and serves to post up to 250 additional sites for tourists to access.
My advice is to thoroughly familiarize readers with the potential costs of a traffic misadventure; but if you are fined, be careful in how you proceed given my experience. In my situation, there were grounds for an appeal. Please understand (bloggers) that at this time "the horse was out of the barn." This is not "ticket bashing," nor is it an experience of a callous, uninformed, poorly read tourist.
I have always attempted to obey the laws and have driven in Italy and other European countries frequently.
I don't know to what degree Italians vs. tourists are fined, so all comments regarding opinions re: how municipalities officials work together or what motives the fining authorities have is not in my pay grade; unless you have documentation of these matters, these topics are not in any of our pay grades either (in my opinion, of course).
Posted by
Basel, Switzerland
8889 posts
"tagging tourists to the tune of "millions" of dollars." - sorry, but that is not true. The ZTL's are to keep cars out, not to gather money.
Posted by
Italy
3812 posts
If you pay within the first five days you are confessing, declaring you won't appeal and getting a reduced "sentence"; from the 5th to the 59th day you can either pay or appeal. You can't do both.
The first sign is 80 meters before the camera, then there is another sign under the camera.
Writing "I was told that" in an appeal is pointless.
For all the above reasons It's quite obvious why your appeal was first ignored and then refused.
You won't be charged extra if you don't pay and appeal, you'll be charged extra if your appeal is not heard within the 60th day and it's refused.
Mayors have no way to influence judges, there is no need to bother Messieur Montesquieu but it would be like expecting an USMC seargent to tell an Army captain what to do.
Posted by
7667 posts
I would not drive in Italy. I have read too may ridiculous stories about the traffic fines. From a post where a fine is levied for going 2KPH over the speed limit to this one, I will stick with rail travel or tours.
Posted by
Sioux Falls, SD, USA
3046 posts
Generally, I am less and less interested in driving anywhere in Europe, Italy, Germany, England, whatever. First, you don't know the informal "rules of the road". In the US, you almost never get ticketed for under 10 MPH over the posted limit. In Italy? Second, there are these "no-go" zones. Third, I always get speeding tickets. So, I take buses. I can watch the scenery, look at my pictures, whatever. Relaxing and much simpler.
Posted by
Italy
3812 posts
In Italy?
5 kph or 5% of the posted limit, what's best for the offender.
Incidentally, the city of Florence is so desperately trying to tag tourists that they installed traffic lights and bi-lingual signs to mark the beginning of their ZTL. Those things seem cyber-punk xmas trees planted in the middle of the road.
In Prato they haven't installed bi-lingual signs, but a led wall isn't exactly the best way to make money with unsuspecting tourists:
http://www.tvprato.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/varchi-elettronici-piazza-santantonino.jpg
Posted by
San Francisco Bay Area (USA)
15168 posts
I’m not clear about your complaint.
You acknowledged you drove twice into a ZTL.
Did you have permission to do so? That is, was your car put in the white list by an entity with the authority to do so (for example a public parking garage inside the ZTL)?
If the answer is no, you were not authorized to drive into the ZTL, therefore I don’t understand the ground for your appeal. The fact the cameras were not visible is not an excuse. It would be like me, in California, contesting a speed ticket because the Highway Patrol was hiding behind a bush when I was caught speeding.
Regarding the fact the Italian cities use ZTL and speed cameras to fill their coffers and improve their budget woes is a well known fact (although American cities aren’t much better).
What is NOT true is that the system targets foreign tourists.
Italians get ticketed more often than foreign visitors because they may be familiar with cameras near home, but not necessarily with those in other areas. Some speed cameras are mobile too (aboard patrol cars) therefore nobody knows their location.
Believe me. You won’t get any sympathy from local Italian residents. Italian drivers are just as pissed as you are, actually more, because it happens more often to them than it happens to you, plus, in addition to the fine, Italians also get several points deducted from their license in case of speed ticket (3 to 10 points depending on speed) and after they lose 20 points they have 30 days to retake all tests to get a brand new license (otherwise they take the license away indefinitely until they retake all the tests).
Posted by
Niagara, Ontario
1550 posts
I don't like this sort of thing as much as the next man. But if you were aware of the limited traffic areas, why drive in them (even if the cameras were obscured) ?
Posted by
Firenze, Italy
1529 posts
You can appeal a fine either to the province prefect or to justice of peace. Appeals to prefects are usually hopeless, but a well argumented appeal to a justice has a fair probability of winning. Of course, you have little hope of winning if you are wrong.
Posted by
Vernon, Canada
32206 posts
This seems to be a fairly regular topic here on the forum. I suppose it would be logical to say that if a traveller wishes to drive in Italy (or elsewhere in Europe), be prepared to accept the consequences of traffic violations, even if these violations were unintentional. If not willing to take the consequences, use trains or other public transit.
Posted by
227 posts
I agree with Ken. Do your homework and be prepared for what the laws are. I rented a car twice in Florence last year and drove through Tuscany and down to Umbria. I don't think the police or cities are targeting foreigners. They are attempting to preserve a good way of life that is being challenged by an influx of many, many, tourists,
Posted by
Tresana, Highlands Ranch, CO, USA
23267 posts
Two years ago we spent ten days driving in and around Florence. Held our breath for year -- no tickets. It can be done if you are careful.
Posted by
Rural Georgia
2111 posts
Two years ago we spent ten days driving in and around Florence. Held our breath for year -- no tickets. It can be done if you are careful.
Same here, except we avoided driving in Florence. We always avoid driving in larger cities in Europe.
For us, there's European experiences that are hard to have without a rental car. We will continue to rent when appropriate when we visit again.
Thousands of Americans rent cars in Italy each year and come home ticket free. Knowledge, common sense and strictly observing all local traffic laws will help keep you out of trouble.
Posted by
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
8293 posts
We did get a parking ticket in Sicily, for parking overnight, but our B&B host paid half of it, which was so kind. We paid the ticket at the post office in Ortigia.
Posted by
San Francisco Bay Area
5697 posts
Like Frank, we watched our mail for a year after driving a car in Tuscany and Umbria -- took a few wrong turns in Siena and weren't sure we had turned before or after the edge of the ZTL. Evidently we were safe.
The speeding ticket on our first driving day in France ? We just paid it.
Posted by
1 posts
As others mentioned leave the rental car/cars out of Florence if possible... I knew it would be a super busy place but i didnt know how extreme Florence traffic Police are. I drove carfefully with a Milan native.. friend.... to my Hotel in Florence with help from the Hotel spokesperson as per the GPS signal is horrible in Florence and had trouble finding the Hotel even with a map.. Once there the rental car was driven off by the hotel's employee to a lot somewhere?It is possible traffic violations occurred when the driver left to park the rental car. When i finished my amazing stay in Florence my rental car was returned possibly with again...traffic violations by the driver.Later when i returned back in the U.S. i recieved three weeks later a notice saying there were two traffic violations in Florence corresponding to my time with the rental car. Of coarse i was charged over 100.00 dollars US by the rental car company to email my info to the Florence authorities, who then sent me the fines for the exact same amount as the rental car company. I wrote a letter back stating the rental car company charged the fines to my credit card. They said no you owe. I generally pay for my fines but the way these fines came about and the greedy nature and no clue of where, when, who, proof who committed the violations is very unclear. So when evidence is lacking i do not pay fines. Years later a collection agency says i owe $800.00 for two traffic fines. I have no trust as is this scam. Florence needs to do better with their do process of traffic violations and these cameras..its not a valid system.
Posted by
Italy
3812 posts
The rental company did not charge the fine to your credit card. They charged the fee to send cops your name and address. A fee you agreed on when you signed the rental agreement.
A car under your responsibility entered a forbidden zone and you were fined, it's called being adults with the power to sign contracts. Complaining about non existing scams is quite childish. Nobody forced you to trust the hotel staff.
They have pics of the car entering the ZTL when it was under your responsibility, pics you could have checked on the city official web-page. Pay now or pay much more later, they can also prove you received and ignored the actual fines via registered letter without filing an appeal within the legal terms, either. How could you avoid being forced to pay? What should the excuse be? That they can prove it was your car but not that you were behind the wheel? Seriously?
Posted by
Tresana, Highlands Ranch, CO, USA
23267 posts
....So when evidence is lacking i do not pay fines. Years later a collection agency says i owe $800.00 for two traffic fines..... This is frequently discussed and the result is either pay it or you don't. It really doesn't make much difference to most of us. A first time poster whining about traffic tickets doesn't generate a lot of sympathetic. If that collection company reports those unpaid fines to your credit history, you might find the problem to be a little big than you think. But do what you like.
Posted by
Houston
3519 posts
.its not a valid system.
Well, actually it is a valid system. It is different than what we are used to at home, but it is the law in Italy.
I don't bother driving while in Europe. I would rather sit back in a bus or train seat and watch the scenery while someone else worries about traffic violations. Much more relaxing, enjoyable, and I don't have to focus so intently on the traffic rules. To me the point of vacation is to relax. Lately even here in the US I am finding ways to get around without renting a car (or driving my own) often enough although it is not easy.