Menus in Italy

Very interesting Laurel. I am sorry it happened to you but also glad for a report from a ~local~. Do you do reviews on Trip Advisor? If you do you should definitely leave a review detailing this on there. Laughing, if you don't usually do reviews on TA, then maybe you should start!!

I just posted to TA, Pam. I am not the first to see pricing issues there, it seems.

Laurel,

Thanks for the heads up on the pricing. I haven't heard of this before, but it's not surprising that some restaurants would be trying to "fleece" English-speaking tourists. Unfortunately, in your case their scam was exposed. I'll have to remember this when I'm in Italy, as I'm sure there are other restaurants pulling the same stunt.

good grief

Well, clearly the restaurant had to employ a very talented, totally bi-lingual translator to produce the English version of the menu, maybe on a daily basis if the menu might change every day. Probably explains the extra cost, no? What's the going rate, Roberto? Sort of like checked baggage or an aisle seat -- you don't need it, you don't pay for it.

Maybe for the extra cost, they should bring you ice for your drink, coffee during the meal, and a doggy bag. (this was a joke)

ouch, stan

So, how to tip....

To my taste, a restaurant that only hands me an English menu is setting off on the wrong foot. I was similarly soured by a place in Paris where I had to ask for the French menu and then found the choices quite different (and not seasonal).

I am one of those that will ask for an Italian menu (or local language) when handed an English menu, but mainly because I cannot always decipher what the dish is in oddly translated English, knowing dishes by their Italian name. I cannot say I ever noticed price differences, selection maybe, often the menu is just somewhat different, but having one of each allows at least some questions to be answered without having to search a menu decoder or translation guide.

If I have a pet peeve about some restaurants though, it is the check that very clearly states in English "Service Charge (Tip) Not Included", even sometimes helpfully highlighted or circled, but no equivalent phrase in the local language.

I think, generally speaking, there are always "local prices" and "tourist prices". Whenever you don't know the language, a lot of assumptions are made about what you want to buy and how much you can pay for it. Many RS posts in the most toursited spots on Italy - Rome, Venice, etc - indicate that the Italians have figured out how to charge tourists more and to expect tips from them that they wouldn't get from locals (who generally don't tip at all). I wonder what my experience will be like in Sicily - I can understand Italian menus and plan to steer clear of places frequented by tourists (if that's even possible).

Stan – too funny!
Ken – Since we are not in a touristed area but only around the corner from home, it is all the more amazing they would pull this!
Nigel – quoting Charlie Brown is appropriate
Larry – “totally bi-lingual” would not cover the translation adequately
Laura – Amen!
Paul -- If I speak Italian to the staff, I usually get an Italian menu. And I just hate the poor translations anyway.
Agnes – As I said, this wasn’t even in a touristy location! Few travelers come to this neighborhood, but there are many diplomats who should be incensed by this. Not to worry wherever you travel in Italy: So far this is a one-off in several years of living and traveling here.

This was true in 1975 when I was last in Italy. Nothing has changed except the currency.

I haven't noticed the menus differences, but Rome is the one place where we were consistently bill padded. When my then 80 year old mother and I traveled in Rome it got to be a running joke -- on the majority of dinners we had padded bills. The most egregious was a dinner where she had a pasta and I had a pizza with a shared salad and half bottle of wine at a cafe in front of the Pantheon (and yeah we knew it was a tourist trap but it was worth it to us for the stunning setting) The service was unusually bad (e.g. I had to go get the grated cheese for my mother's pasta myself) and then the bill arrived: billed for two pastas, two pizzas, two salads and a bottle of wine. They apparently thought we were dumb as a box of bricks or too timid to complain. Not even.

And what is the name of this restaurant? Surely other people should know so they can avoid it.

Jane - We have never had that happen, at least to that degree! We've had a couple of undelivered-but-charged-for contorni, but that's about it.It pays to check the check!

Michael - I reviewed them in Trip Advisor. I am reluctant to "out" them here as it really isn't a forum for that. I'd prefer R.S. readers use the advice to be sure and ask for an Italian-only menu along with an English one and check for difference in offerings as well as price.

When the bill comes and it indicates that the service charge is not included, in English, do you tip, or is it just a tourist rip-off? What do you do when all they give you is the total amount and not a breakdown?

Laurel....it may be beneficial to include the name of the restaurant in the restaurant review section if you do not think it is appropriate here.

Thanks for the heads up! We're flying to Italy to,or row and will follow your advice for sure. 😊

Don asks:

What do you do when all they give you is the total amount and not a breakdown?

At least in Rome, the restaurant is required to give you a bill that itemizes everything. If they try a stunt like writing your total on the paper tablecloth, they're likely trying to run a scam either by not including the meal in their books (and thus avoiding taxes), or the waiter has inflated the bill to get more out of you. This happened to us at La Montecarlo Pizzeria in Rome, on Vicolo Savelli, 13. I wrote a TA review and I don't hesitate to post the name of that restaurant here.

Wow, that's fascinating. So brazen!! sorry this happened to you, and I hope it happens less often than we fear.

In response to Don regarding the Tip: It is pretty well regarded that a tip in Italy is not needed, especially to the extent that we tip in the US. It is not really a scam, but in touristed areas, everyone knows their customer base, and by raising the tipping issue, they likely elicit a response from North American customers that results in a hefty gain. I can't really blame them, if people are perfectly willing to inflate their own bill 10, 20 or more %, fine. I would stick with the general advice, round up the total, leaving up to a couple euro. If you really feel that you had fantastic service and the waiter provided guidance on menu and wine selection, then a bit more, but then I would personally hand it to them with a big thank you, not leave it on the table.

Thanks Michael and Paul
The bill problem occurred several times in Palermo, Veranassa and in Santa Margherita Ligure . Really can not remember the names of the restaurants, my almost 70 yr old brain does not function as well as I would like.

I think it's fair they charge more for American tourists, Laurel.

First of all, they had to translate the menu in English. Then they had to deviate from the standard recipes to make the food taste like Italian food served at the Olive Garden or the Spaghetti Factory, to adapt to the taste of what the typical American travelers expect from Italian food. That takes extra work and extra gas since you need to cook the pasta longer until it becomes mush. Actually, to make them feel at home, they should also add 15-18% gratuity and bring them the check as soon as possible after they order the food, to pressure them to leave the table as soon as possible for the next guests. I presume that in the English menu they also had wine sold by the glass for the same price the Italian menu lists for a bottle.

Next time insist that you are not the typical American travelers and expect they bring you an Italian menu. Tell them you want your pasta al dente too. Electricity and gas is expensive in Italy.

It may be surprising to many, but sometimes there is preferred pricing in Europe. Having lived in Madrid, Rome, Copenhagen, and now Vienna.... when we were given a separate menu (English-speaking), there were, on occasion, separate prices and/or menu items. It does happen and yes, it was most prevalent (of the cities we've lived) in Rome. Like Laurel, dining in Rome we often asked for the Italian menu rather than the translated English-speaking menu. After a while, the Italians menus were easier to read and understand.

At the same time, - and I am sure Roberto would acknowledge this - there are separate menu items available to a local that are not even on the menu. Many times I would be dining with Italian friends and they would not even open the menu. They just told the waiter what they wanted.

But shouldn't being a regular customer have some benefits? In Rome, each morning on my way to work I would stop at the bar across the street from my apartment, order my espresso, pay my 80 cents (price listed on the wall) and be on my way. After about 2 months of this, the owner who I got to know in my very bad Italian and his limited English, said to me, "Sessanta." (60 cents). And from that day forward, "my" price was 60 cents. (My wife, who only went over perhaps once a week was still 80 - drove her nuts!).

We ate at least once a week at a restaurant on our street in Rome. The English/Italian menus were combined so the same prices were presented to all diners. Every now and then I'd ask for cacio e pepe which was not on their menu. I was never disappointed. After we became "regulars" we also got a lower price - usually about 10% off, or free desserts, free antipasti, etc. Granted we almost always gave it back in the form of a good tip, but there was acknowledgment of our status as regulars.

So it may not be as obvious as a separate menu, but "locals" or more specifically, regular customers, do get some breaks - and why not? They have to tolerate the influx of tourists as exemplified by Roberto's comments... Trust me, even though I am not Danish, Italian, or Austrian, I still got frustrated by the poor behavior of non-locals in "my" restaurants. Imagine going into the restaurant closest to your home and it being descended upon by people who do not know or - worse - do not respect your culture and values.

We saw it every day ...and still do here in Vienna. (Granted here, there are far fewer Americans acting the part of the boorish guest.... but it does happen). Perhaps 25+ years in the service industry has also made me more -sensitive to the challenges of the local restauranteur.

Certainly there are restaurants in Italy that DO gouge the non-local crowd. And the internet is filled with stories of these places. Perhaps the most famous incident in Rome was at The Passetto, near Piazza Navona. As a result of negative feedback, an international incident, and the ensuing inspection that reflected "health code violations," they were closed for a period of time - for remodeling... So best to report and avoid those establishments that do price gouge an unsuspecting tourist. Certainly that's a benefit of open forums such as this.

You are right, Ron, there are special considerations for frequent customers and we get them all the time: no charge to sit outside, a "friends and family" discount (as we call it) at a couple of places we frequent, a few free items from the fruttivendolo. There is often recognition and reward for being a regular, as you mention in your experience as well.

This is totally different from publishing two menus with different prices for the same items. After dining out 3-4 times per week in Europe for over 3 years -- most of which we have done in Rome -- I have never seen anything like this, probably because we always get the Italian menus. I will now ask for French menus in Paris, too, I guess. :-)

Ron: "Granted we almost always gave it back in the form of a good tip, but there was acknowledgment of our status as regulars."

???? I thought tipping was only an American custom and not done in Italy ???? Now I am confused :(

Laurel, we've recently had the "different-priced" menu incident here in Vienna. (Our German menu-reading ability is still not up-to-speed and thus we requested an English menu). So it's not just a Roman thing. On another night we went to a small Italian restaurant in the 6th district of Vienna for the first time and had to ask for an Italian menu - as we could not decipher the German or English versions... Lost in Translation :) . Fortunately our waiter spoke Italian and that's how we ordered. He was surprised to find Americans speaking Italian in Vienna. (That would be my wife - not me!).

Don, there are a lot of different perspectives on tipping - I am sure there innumerable tipping posts - and opinions - on this board! My first-hand experience: When we ate out with our Italian friends, no one at the table ever thought of tipping. We would just take the total amount of the bill and split it evenly among all diners (Splitting checks - never; You learn early not to be shy about ordering what you really want!). One of first times out with them I added some "additional money" to the pot... for a tip. One of my friends said, "What are you doing giving away money? I'll take that!" That was the last time I tipped when I was with that group.

But whereas tipping may not be an Italian custom (more likely rounding up might be the norm on a lot of things). I think perhaps the American tourist has "taught" the Italian service industry the concept of tipping. Often it was expected - because we were Americans - that we would tip! And yes, it was even SUGGESTED to us to tip. A waiter would never have said that my local friends! And in our favorite spots, we were NOT pressured to tip.

I suppose there are things you do differently when you eat out often at the same restaurant over and over. For example, the tap water in Rome is great and having tap water at a restaurant is an option... but when we ate at our favorite local spots we always ordered bottled water. It helped them with their margins and knowing how tight those margins were, it was or way of helping support our local spots. So you tip differently, you order differently... and it's often reciprocal.

As Laurel notes, your perspective is different when you're part of the fabric and landscape of a local spot... Not quite there in Vienna yet... but heading back to Rome to see old friends next week!

I agree with my old friend Ron when he says: "So best to report and avoid those establishments that do price gouge an unsuspecting tourist. Certainly that's a benefit of open forums such as this."

I'm still curious to know what the name of this restaurant is that started this thread. I don't understand the hesitation to name it here. Laurel, don't you want people to know? Are you going to force them to go read every restaurant review on TripAdvisor?