Learning the Language?

I usually try to refresh the language before each visit. I use Duolingo daily starting 6 months prior to leaving. I do it for several reasons, but mostly because I'm trying to be polite, it's a good challenge for my mind AND it's fun. However, I still love learning. I'm an older senior & take college courses through Osher Lifelong Learning at the university near me. I loved your story and I've had this happen to me, mostly in France as my pronunciation of their lovely language can sometimes be horrific.

The issue isn't ONE language. Europe is pretty small, really, and many, like me, visit several different countries when we are in Europe. This spring we will travel to Prague, Bratislava, Austria, and Budapest. That's four languages. Impossible for the average person.

In case you didn't know, Czech (Prague) and Slovak (Bratislava) are West Slavic languages and are largely mutually intelligible. A Czech and a Slovak can usually communicate with each other without any problems, each in their own language.

And… well, yes. You can easily speak four different languages… I myself speak six different languages fairly fluently. But to be fair, I should mention that we Belgians already start learning foreign languages in school when we're twelve.

I don’t think anybody is truly criticizing tourists for not being fluent in a language, however, many tourists, especially on this forum, travel almost every year to certain countries, like Italy, and even after 30 years of traveling don’t even know the basics of common courtesy, such as in Italy, upon entering a shop one greets the shopkeeper with “buongiorno” and that’s it. Nobody’s asking one to have a full blown conversation in Italian. And yet, I’m always shocked, when I see/hear Anglo tourists, say ciao instead of buongiorno. One says ciao to friends and family, not a shopkeeper. One can learn basic words and sentences. Smiling and being a pleasant tourist doesn’t always cut it, plus, don’t you wish to learn more about the places you’re visiting? I know I do which is why, for example, when visiting countries I try to relearn the basics like where is the bathroom? Or, I’d like a small nonalcoholic beer or I just use the brand name. A little goes a long way with host countries.

@Windyram- you have a point there. Most Europeans, unlike Americans, for example, are taught foreign languages in schools starting at a relatively young age, and these aren’t the kinds of language classes that were traditionally given in American schools up until the 90’s, whereupon students mostly forgot what they were taught because they didn’t think it would apply at any time in their futures. My Italian wife, for example, in elementary school, was taught English, starting at 11, and then French, in upper primary school, (9th grade in USA) and in her last two years there was Latin and Greek. She was very much into classical German literature so in university she took classes for that. So she isn’t able to currently hold a conversation in Latin, but, she DOES remember the construct and letters of all of those languages and can hold a conversation in Italian, obviously, English, Hebrew (she took language classes in that 30 years ago- as I speak it fluently as well), German, Greek, which she’s less polished at, French, Spanish, and to a lesser extent, Latin. I myself only speak 3 languages, English, Hebrew and Italian, and know a smattering of Greek words and phrases. I spoke Yiddish in my youth but since I didn’t utilize it since the age of 5, I’ve mostly forgotten it. However, I do understand it. Mostly.

The one phrase I wish more tourists would use is, "Do you speak English". There is nothing less sensitive than running up to someone in a panic and blurting out a question in English. Please at least learn this simple phrase (along with "please" and "thank you", of course).

Some people criticize other travelers who don't try to learn the native language of the country they are visiting.

I don't think anyone here has really criticized others who don't learn the language, but I think a lot of people do advocate that you at least learn a few phrases. Obviously, you're not going to learn multiple languages for a multi-country trip, but it does help to show some willingness to learn, keeping in mind the language of the countries you are traveling to.

For example, I spent three weeks this summer in Iceland, Stockholm, and Norway, and did not learn any of their languages because just about everyone there speaks English; and very well, too. But I did try and learn a few phrases when I was in Romania, and when I go to Germany, I always speak the language (but I speak German, so perhaps that's not really an issue). 😊

I think just even knowing enough to say "good afternoon" when you enter a shop, "how much is that?" when asking about an item, and "thank you" and "please" are fine and certainly a bit more friendly than not learning anything. But I don't think anyone will fault you for not learning a few phrases.

Having said that, I disagree with L'americano's remark that not knowing the etiquette of when to use a phrase will make you a bad tourist. And in fact, I'm wondering how L'americano would know how many tourists travel to places like Italy for 30 years and don't know common courtesy. I think that's making a huge generalization, and I very much doubt that it is accurate. Certainly the members here who I know that frequently travel to Italy are pretty well-versed in the basics of the language (and probably more).

Regardless, the etiquette of knowing what to say and when can take a while to learn; and in fact, can be more difficult to learn than the actual language in many cases. When I've met tourists in the United States, I have never thought ill of them for using a phrase in the wrong place or at the wrong time. It might amuse me a little bit, but I would keep that to myself.

”,,,many tourists, especially on this forum, travel almost every year to certain countries, like Italy, and even after 30 years of traveling don’t even know the basics of common courtesy, such as in Italy, upon entering a shop one greets the shopkeeper with “buongiorno”…..and say ciao instead of buongiorno.”

I’m not aware of anyone testing whether I’ve been doing this (smile), but yes, I travel a lot to Italy, and I’ve known for years to never say the informal word “ciao” in that country & I do greet shop owners upon entering “in any country” with their formal hello greeting in their language. I studied Italian nightly for a year several years ago in preparation of traveling further into the smaller cities and less touristy regions, and it’s helped immensely.

Many YouTube videos now for “any country’s language tourist words” quick study will give both the formal & informal greetings, etc. - a nice way to hear the correct pronunciations, plus have at least the normal 10+ words as a start to be using. A humble attitude, being respectful of the people living there and showing gratitude go a long way in any conversation.

Dgawell,, I consider it a success when traveling if the person I’m interacting will respond in their language instead of jumping to English to reply to me, but sometimes I’m very grateful, especially in France, when they’ve heard enough of my attempts to speak it correctly. ; )

I think it’s only basic politeness to at least learn “Please, thank you, hello and goodbye” for a place you intend to visit.
And if you have to write it on a little cheat card, at least you tried!

I realise we're outliers as between us we speak several languages with native fluency and have at least functional comprehension of a multitude of others. This arose circumstantially however, not as a result of any esoteric desire to become polyglot, and I do not fault my fellow travelers for not pursuing that goal.

What I do stress however is the caveat that Europeans who speak and understand English well enough to have a nuanced conversation about complex subjects tend to belong to select demographics, and thus an English-only-speaking tourist ought take that into consideration lest they infer from those conversations (or the conversations had by other English-only-speakers including travel influencers) as to how "the majority of Europeans" feel about [insert controversial subject]...as I have indeed read or heard many times.

I think the common belief that "everyone speaks English over there" to do a disservice to travelers. Being able to speak a few words of the local language is a sign of respect that enhances your travel experience. Trying to learn a language fluently is unnecessary, and beyond the time investment of most people I know.

Many other societies value respect more than the instant smiling friendliness we take for granted. As GPB said, you can't expect someone who speaks some English to speak it all, especially with current idioms, slang and cultural references. And nobody is required to speak English to you if they dont want to (based on your attitude). No different than someone coming up to me here at home and start speaking in rapid Spanish without at least using the common conversational courtesies. I find the old-fashioned phrase books still to be useful, forgotten as soon as the trip is over.

Language learning is on the way out as a learned skill, thanks to translation apps. In the last few years it was dropped as a graduation requirement from Univ. Northern Colo. and most of the students decided not to take foreign languages. German and French - gone.

It’s too bad because travelling to countries where we speak some of the language is one aspect of travel that my wife and I enjoy. Our trip in 2018 was especially fun because between the two of us we spoke all of the languages in the countries we visited - Portugal. Spain, France, Italy, Germany

Just learn the basics courtesy words (buongiorno, buona sera, buona notte, arrivederci, grazie, prego, parla inglese?, etc.). It's a courtesy thing not a requirement.

However if you go out of the main tourist places, especially in rural areas, you'll need to speak a bit more Italian than that, because you'll have a hard time communicating in English in those localities.

I imagine some of this is based on comfort level. I've done one trip in my life where we spoke absolutely none of the language (Czech) in one of the countries visited. On that same trip we also went to Vienna, and I had 8 years of German between high school and college, and had done 2 month long trips to Germany, and was much much more comfortable navigating us around Vienna in spite of it being years since I'd spoken German regularly. It was 15+ years before we made it to Europe again, and you bet your buttons I spent a few months doing Pimsleur courses on my work commute prior that trip. Did I use it much beyond hello/thank you? No, but it was helpful for reading menus, once when we needed to order at a bakery where no one spoke English, and once when our tour guide was ready to tell the restroom attendant we only had 3 people needing to use it, and I was able to quickly jump in and explain that no all of us needed it (I really had to pee LOL), and then I said like 2 other sentences in the language to the tour guide the whole rest of the trip, but it was fun to do so. Was it necessary? Probably not, but I love learning languages, and I realize many people do not. I'm currently doing Pimsleur Italian in preparation for an Italy trip in April. Do I need to know how to say "My fiancee and I will be in Venice for 3 weeks" when my husband of 25 years and I will be in a totally different part of Italy? No! Am I having fun? Yes! Will I use it when I get there? One assumes maybe a little, but I'll feel more comfortable and it's good for a person's brain. I've wanted to learn Italian for decades. Am thinking of adding another app in (avoiding Duolingo, because I don't want the AI, but we'll see). I'm also reading a wild number of books that are about or take place in Italy. Most people won't do that either, but I'm having a ball.

dgawell,

I am in your court, I think. The average RS tourist was born and raised in the US. With a few exceptions they had zero exposure to any other language. If you learn it and you don’t use it, odds are you lose it. So, now the RS tourist retired at the age of 60+ and someone expects them to learn 4 languages? Seriously?

Some of us are linguistically crippled. I grew up in one of the exceptions. As a first language more than a third of my neighbors spoke Spanish. Spanish was mandatory from 3rd grade until 7th grade. On the ranch most of the workers spoke less English than I speak Ukrainian. How much Spanish can I speak? I can order breakfast brilliantly. Not much more. But I have discovered that if I speak English very slow and very loudly that more understand me. Naaa, that doesn’t work either.

I live in Hungary. I took Hungarian lessons. I can be polite, I can count and I can read and almost pronounce signs that I read, but have no idea what I am saying. I might have gotten better by now, but every time I try to speak the person listening tells me to stop, in English. Through osmosis I have noticed that I recognize the meaning of a few of words that I hear. Not bad for having come here for over 20 years.

Yes, Slovak and Czech are similar and those that are fluent in one or the other can work their way through a conversation with the other. That does not describe a tourist who took a 20 hour duo-lingo-gringo course.

Oddly I have been unintentionally acquiring some Ukrainian from acquaintances. So I expect a lot to do with interest. I have no interest in Turkish. Oh, and a few months ago in Spain and one of my relatives was being harrassed by an individual. Because of my relative's job caution with such things is always important. I recognized the accent and blurted out two words in Persian and the individual took off like a scared bunny. I once had a number of Persian employees and they taught me the good stuff.

And dgawell, the others arent critical if you dont learn the language, its really something else thats going on. But not any better.

Language learning is on the way out as a learned skill, thanks to translation apps. In the last few years it was dropped as a graduation requirement from Univ. Northern Colo. and most of the students decided not to take foreign languages. German and French - gone.

This is plainly stupid from an university; you do not learn languages only to place orders at restaurants, but because it gives you access to entire literary worlds and texts that may be not translated in your language. I am not particularly fluent in German, but being a music scholar I know too well that there are texts in German that won't ever be translated in Italian or English, languages where I am more fluent, so I had to force myself to read books in German as an exercise even if it is a bit tiring to me. This cannot be forced on a tourist, but renouncing languages is inexcusable to an university.

As for tourists, I have often observed during my Austrian holidays that even my basic knowledge of German gives much more deepness to my trips. A lot of Austrians speak English and often quite proficiently, but some things are published in German only - for example, there are some discounts at Salzburg parking silos that I found advertised only in the local language but were available to everybody, provided they understood the signs. And some things in rural Austria work only if you ask for them in German. This is not a theory, it is just an observation from reality, and I am talking about a place were English is widely spoken.

I would not expect everybody to learn local languages, some are simply too difficult. I have been in Hungary and Poland, their local languages are not easier to me than Chinese or Japanese (actually I managed a few words of Chinese and Japanese because I was there for longer times). As an Italian, I am not expecting everybody to learn Italian just to visit, and if a foreigner greets me with an inappropriate "ciao" I do not take offense, exactly as I do not take offense when I am greeted with ciao by a small child (but not from a teen). But let me state that if you do not speak Italian, you are exposed only to a part of the culture. For example, what makes Naples an irresistible place is the vivacity, intelligence and understanding of the people, and by the way it works better in Neapolitan dialect than in standard Italian. When you come back from Naples you always have stories to tell and whole books have been written just listening people on the street. This is an aspect completely locked to the ordinary tourist, that will leave Naples having only a partial understanding of the city. Probably not even worth to go there if you do not understand.

If there is an area where a minimum effort would give immediate better results, it would be the spelling. Even in this forum, I see people misspelling place names, to the point of not being understandable. This is inexcusable; googling to check a spelling takes only a few seconds, if you do not spell correctly internet searches will give less results, and if you can't commit to at least spell correctly the name of the place you are headed to, it makes my wonder why you want to go.

I think the common belief that "everyone speaks English over there" to do a disservice to travelers.

I don't know that there's a common belief that everyone speaks English over there, Stan. I don't know if you were talking about my comment or not, but I did say that when I went to the Scandinavian countries, I did not learn much of the language, if anything. I think I picked up a few words here and there, but generally they go out of their way to speak English, and they do it very, very well. As someone above mentioned, many Europeans start learning English in their early grades, which I think is really admirable.

But that's not true of every country. There are a lot of places in Germany where they do not speak English well or even at all. I happen to love those places because I get to practice my German while I'm there. I'm on the underside of fluency, but I do okay. As someone above mentioned, many Europeans start learning English in their early grades, which I think is really admirable.

And in Romania, we met quite a few people in some of the outlying areas that did not speak any English. Romanian is a difficult language to learn. I learned "thank you" and I think a couple of other words, but that was about it.

To be honest, I don't even attempt it in France because I don't think they really appreciate American tourists learning their language. I will say merci and bonjour and some other words of greeting, but when I first went to France back in 1999, I spent about six months trying to learn some of the language. When I got over there and I tried to speak it, however, I was pretty much ignored, or they just cut me off and spoke in English. So I gave up after that. And that is not a criticism. I think the French language is absolutely beautiful, and I'm sure my attempts to speak it just butchered it. I would have ignored me too, lol!

Mardee, very few in the EU can communicate in English.

One source puts it a pittance of 47% but barely 7 out of 10 between the ages of 18 and 24.

Which has nothing to do with expressing some courtesy and appreciation to the locals by saying hello or goodbye. For instance here in Budapest, one of the most common forms of greeting is “hello” and one of the most common forms of goodbye is … well … oddly enough “hello”.

Mardee, no I wasn't speaking directly to your comment - I think we are in agreement. But rather to what I have heard many travelers are expecting because they were so advised. Even people I have traveled with (and I encouraged to learn some basics) believe that American English is a universal language. Television doesn't help by making all those foreigners fluent in English.

Mr. E, I would find that interesting. Although, of course, I tend to stay more in the tourist sectors, and those are going to have more locals who do speak good English, so I guess I have to take that into consideration. I looked it up and found the same percentage you did. Around 45% to 47%. However, I found a study that said that younger residents are far more likely to be fluent. Studies show up to 70% to 87% of young EU adults and adolescents (ages 15–24) have conversational or high-level English skills.

By the way, you might like this article, which is interesting in many ways. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2020/02/06/despite-brexit-english-remains-the-eus-most-spoken-language-by-far/

Stan, that makes a lot of sense. That is a shame that most people believe that English is a universal language. And yes, I'm sure that television doesn't help. That's one of the reasons why I do like going to places like Romania and parts of Germany where their English isn't that great.

It's one of the reasons I decided to learn German. Another reason was that it's my ancestry and I feel a connection to it, but also because I found out that there are parts of the country that do not have all English-speaking residents. So I suppose it's a selfish reason, in a way, because I wanted to learn a language that I could actually practice and wouldn't have people constantly telling me or speaking back to me in English when I tried to speak in German. there.

In fact, it's interesting, when I went to Germany in 2022, I was told not to try speaking German in Berlin because all Berliners want to speak English. If you speak German to them, they will just speak back in English. However, I found that it was not that way at all. Everyone I spoke to was very polite and would speak back to me in German. I'm sure my German, especially at that point early on, was appalling, but I still enjoyed the back and forth in a different language and was so glad that they didn't switch to English.

Honestly, I think that language issues are different wherever you go, and a lot depends on the person you're talking to and the country. But I'm glad that there are still people that are learning languages because I think it's so important to be able to communicate with other people in some form or another.

Mardee, I also took lessons in German for three years as an adult. I retain some of that, and brush-up before a trip. By no means can I carry a conversation or read a newspaper, but it sure helps when people see that you made an effort. It shows respect that you dont expect them to do all the work in understanding you on your terms. And yes, it can be fun trying to communicate with people in other countries whose jobs are not interacting with tourists, rather than avoiding them.

But I recognize not everyone wants the same.

Mardee, I was sarcastically agreeing with you. Someone said English isn’t the universal language, well of course it is. Especially in Europe. It is to the detriment of anyone who does not speak it. Why? Well, there are over 30 national languages in Europe and over 200 in total. If a smart Hungarian knows three languages and a smart Spaniard knows three languages and they run into each other in Finland, what are they odds that they can communicate with each other and the shop keeper if not in English? Should they just stay home or be expected learn 30 languages? Anything that brings the world together should not be apologized for.

The Hungarians understand that. Taking a second language in school isn’t mandatory; LEARNING a second language in school IS mandatory. The majority learn English because they understand it’s the Universal language and that’s why when you were here, “everyone” spoke English. Frankly, it’s how I survive here.

But to be fair. In Hungary if you are in the city and the person under 35 years of age who is in front of you doesn’t speak English, then the nine under 35 people standing next to him will. If you are in the country and the old fart front of you DOES speak English, then the 95 old farts standing next to him will not speak English. In Ukraine if the person in front of you speaks English … hang on to them. Pay them to stay with you. Cause the 200 next to him will not.

I also noticed that 30 years ago if I found someone who spoke English, they sounded like they were from England. Now most speak the proper American English.

The whole do you need it or not or is it a benefit or not or doe they speak it or not discussion has little to do with showing a little interest and being a bit complementary to your hosts by trying to at least be polite in the language. But I never heard of anyone being looked down on because they couldn’t. It’s a social “extra” and a very nice one.

More useless facts.

• Youth & Young Adults (Ages 15–24): According to the Eurobarometer Survey on Languages, 79% of young people aged 15–24 speak at least one foreign language. Eurostat data for ages 18–24 shows that 87.3% know one or more foreign languages.
• English Proficiency: Among young Europeans, English is the most widely spoken foreign language, known by about 70% of youth.
• General European Average: Across all working-age adults in the EU, roughly 74.7% know at least one foreign language (with younger generations scoring significantly higher than older cohorts), and an average of 1.8 to 2+ languages are spoken per person overall.

Maybe dgawell is responding to a post of mine criticizing Americans in Italy who don't even try to speak Italian?. I stand by my feeling that everyone should be able to say hello, thanks, excuse me, etc in the native tongue, no matter how many countries you visit. I don't mean you have to be even close to fluent, just recognize you are in a different country. With tools like Google Translate, it's very easy to do. In the old days, you had to thumb through a paper dictionary. In many places, you will hear English in response, but at least you made an effort.

In my youth I worked at the Grand Canyon. If an Italian tourist started ordering in Italian when I approached to take a food order, it would have been considered very odd.

Here's my translation gone wrong story.. I was in the USSR with a group in the early 80s. No one at our hotel spoke English. We kept getting served huge portions of meat at dinner. Meat and champagne. Go figure. I don't remember a menu; you got what was served. We intended to request less meat and more veg. It was a long conversation with the server using the slovar (dictionary.) After that, we were only served friend cheese. Ha!

Of course you can have fun with it. When i walk into my favorite restaurant, i give the staff a loud dobryy vechir y'all.

How very apropos. We're now in Lerici (Liguria), after having earlier based in SML. Per favor, an immodest boast follows.
We've been to Italy numerous times, and by now my basic Italian is good enough that not a day goes by without some local assuming that I am bilingual. LOL! They react to my grasp of accent, which is pretty strong.
My Montreal-born wife is truly bilingual French-English.

Below is a translation of something that I said earlier today, with everyone beside us at the fishmongers gazing at me with what I'm sure was great admiration:

"Greetings old fishes man person who our landlord is ferociously reccomending onto this morning of. The such weather is about! How are the things Life happen this onto the of you? Am you do yours gots fish of St.Pietro? We are icy-cold weathers from Toronto it and has 3 Italian players now playing about Toronto FC club is football not Canadian football because. No St. Pietro champion boss of all fishes you is got? Then the goodbye, we must be hanging. On it bus thing. Ciao..."

gregglamarsh, you just made my day. I laughed so hard at that! And yes, I'm sure they were gazing at you with great admiration! 😂😂😂