Italy, Greece and Poland?

The biggest mistake I made when beginning my travels to Europe was trying to do too much. How about compromising and spend your extra time in Italy rather than either Santorini or Krakow. I've been to all the places you mentioned in Italy as well as Athens and Santorini. I can't speak to Poland but including Athens and Santorini is worth it if you have the time and money although there's a lot more to Greece than those two places. The problem is that inter-trip travel can be time consuming and the more moving parts to your trip the greater chance there is for glitches. Make your first trip to Europe as simple as possible regarding logistics.

Given enough time you can go everywhere on your wish list.

Until there is an answer to 'how much time do you have', meaningful responses will be a challenge.

How much time is 'enough' at a place depends on what you want to do there.

As an example, Santorini, is a day stop for many cruise ships; some people will spend a week or more.

That’s a lot of hopping and I’ve never been to Poland so can’t help with specifics. However, for that long a distance you would want to consider flying. There may not be direct flights - you’d go through Amsterdam or Paris or somewhere.

For the Italy/Greece portion, I’d fly into Venice, spend 3 nights, then train to Rome for 4+, then 2 in Naples or Sorrento for Pompeii. Fly from Naples to Santorini (May not be direct flight, change in Athens). 3+ nights in Santorini, then home. Santorini could be less or more, but I see no point in flying all the way there for less than 3 nights. Then a night in Athens night make sense here, see the Acropolis before heading home. That’s 14ish nights, pretty fast paced but I think ok.

As for Krakow...you could start your trip there - fly into it, spend a few nights, then fly on to Venice. It’s way too much flying for my taste. As you mentioned, look into trains. More time consuming but an option. The seat 61 website is great for this.

https://www.seat61.com/international-trains/trains-from-Krakow.htm#Krakow_to_Venice

You are right - that's a lot to do! Give us some more information and I know that you'll get plenty of good help from this forum. My immediate impression is: stay in one country. I say that because, since this is your first trip to Europe, the amount of cultural stimulus is going to be great and a little exhausting. On a more practical note - travel, even within the same country, takes almost a full day out of your vacation. Travelling to a different country? That would take at least a full day.

Maybe for your first time in Italy (hey, this is the Italy page so I'm prejudiced) you might start with: what do we want to see? what do we want to do? Those are not necessarily the same things. You mention Rome, the Vatican, Pompeii and Venice. How about this (I'm just trying to start the discussion): Fly into Venice and home from Rome. Venice is unlike any other place on the planet. You don't "see" the art and history, you actually "walk" in it. It's expensive but do your homework (and ask questions here) and you can work within a reasonable budget. Again, I'm prejudiced. I like spending at least 5 nights there. Maybe you could do 3? The Freccia (high speed) train from Venice can have you in Rome in about 4 hours. Or you could leave Venice early and spend at least several hours in Florence (I won't argue with people who say you should stay a few days there). You can get to Rome late in the evening - it'll still be busy and exciting and welcoming. The Vatican, for most tourists, is a two part experience: inside St. Peter's and the Vatican Museum. Both will take time and both are well worth it. Pompeii can be done as a day-trip from Rome. Again, the Freccia train line is your best friend. I like a minimum of 10 nights in Rome. Again, make your list and we can help you better with scheduling.

Hotel in Venice. Make researching it part of the fun. You want to be in a convenient area, which means that you can get to all the sites on your list either by foot or vaporetto (a water version of bus). In Rome you could save money by renting an apartment. VRBO.COM or AirBnB.com are reliable and safe. There are plenty of wonderful fresh produce markets and convenient grocery stores around the city which can make cooking dinner more interesting than if you were still home. For lunch, I'd get some take-away food from a local shop. You might prefer staying in the Piazza Navona area (look on the map). From there you can walk to just about anyplace you'll want to visit . . . and enjoy the nightlife there and across the street at the Campo dei Fiori.

Enough from me. Let's get this discussion going and help this couple have the trip they want and deserve!

Under normal circumstances a traveler might check out flights on budget airlines (research options on skyscanner.com) and perhaps find an inexpensive flight linking two distant destinations. The issue is that the cheap tickets are usually non-changeable and non-refundable, and right now anything could happen--including bankruptcy of the airline that has your money. Still, if the flights were cheap enough--and if you travel very light so you don't have to pay to check luggage--it might be worth rolling the dice.

I believe it's too early to see schedules for fall 2021, but you can watch for them to show up later this year. Look for non-stop flights. Making connections on budget airlines really runs up the cost because you pay for the flights separately, and if the first flight is late, an airline like RyanAir or EasyJet is not going to rebook your second flight for free.

Many people going to Krakow want to see Auschwitz. That side-trip is easy to manage but takes up a large chunk of a day. I think there's enough to see in Krakow that the city itself needs two days, so I'd suggest spending 4 nights there unless you happen to fly in early in the day.

You need not fly to and from the same airport in Europe. When you price out your transatlantic flights, look for "Multi-city" tickets. Maybe fly to Rome and home from Athens, for example.

Unless you have a lot of time, though, I agree with the earlier responses suggesting that you focus on Italy. That way you'll waste little time sitting on trains/buses/planes. And Italy has a lot of variety.

Please tell us how many nights you expect to spend in Europe (not counting the night on the airplane heading east). It would also be useful to know what attracts you two to Santorini and Krakow. Perhaps there are easier-to-reach places that would target those same interests.

I've been to Europe 15 times and am still trying to get to Krakow. I would not try to combine Krakow with the other cities on your list. In 2008, we went to Rome, Florence, Santorini, Athens and Nauplio during a two week trip. We combined Istanbul and Ephesus with the Munich area of Germany in 2012. Everyone else on this forum would tell you not to do Pompeii as a day trip from Rome, but we've done it twice-once with Enjoy Rome, once on a bus tour that also drove the Amalfi Coast. It's a long day, but you're young, and it's once less change of hotel. Since it's your first trip to Europe, you might not want to attempt it on your own. Be advised that Rome, Florence, and Santorini are not cheap destinations. I love the sights in Rome but would not spend 10 days there-4 complete days would be enough for me.

Here's another vote for not spreading yourselves too thin. I'm reminded of a friend from England who wanted to "pop over to Yellowstone" while visiting New York City. Acclimating to one country (hey, this is the Italy forum) is enough of a challenge, and adding two others doesn't make sense, IMO. You'd be spending a lot of money and exerting a lot of (potentially stressful) energy just to check off the boxes. You're young, you'll have other opportunities to visit Europe. Plan a separate trip to Poland and another to Greece.

Confining your itinerary to the Italian places you want to visit, you'll have plenty to see and do in, say, two weeks. For Rome, as they say, even a lifetime isn't enough!

I disagree with the advice to stay in Naples in order to see Pompeii. Stay in Pompeii itself! The Pompeii "scavi" zone is an entire ancient city where you can immerse yourself for a full day; don't neglect to go up to the Villa dei Misteri even though it's rather out of the way. Then, while you're in the area of these rich archaeological treasures, take the train to Herculaneum for a different experience of a Vesuvius-buried settlement. You could also go to Oplontis and Paestum. Between Rome and Pompeii you have to change trains in Naples, so it's easy to go visit the Museo Archeologico Nazionale, if you want to see it, and then catch the next train.

The joy of being in Europe is being in the place, not getting from one far-flung place to another. That's my 2 cents' worth, anyway. Best of luck!

I have been to all the places that you listed. You didn't indicate how much time you will have in Europe?

To do Rome, Pompeii, Venice (you should also see Capri, Sorrento, Amalfi Coast and Florence), you need about 2.5 weeks/

I would not try to do Krakow in Poland or Santorini in Greece without spending more time in those countries.

You can see several cities in Poland in about 8-10 days.

For Santorini, a Greek Island, I recommend taking a cruise that visits several Greek Islands. Also, spend several days on the Mainland, Athens and surrounding area.

If you decided to visit Krakow, you need three days days, another if you go to Auschwitz.
Santorini is amazing, you can see it in one full day, but if you don't take a cruise, spend at least one night.

Thank you to all for your replies. I can see that we have a lot more to consider for our travel!

Here is more information about our trip. Our goal is to have three weeks in Europe, but it depends on my husband being able to get the entire three weeks off. If not, then two weeks. We are planning for three weeks for the sake of this discussion.

Someone asked about what attracts us about Santorini and Krakow respectively. Krakow has a lot of history primarily related to World War II. I am very interested in this part of history and have read so many survivors stories and related books. I am very interested in seeing the following places in or around Krakow: Auchwitz, Oskar Schindler’s Factory Museum, Wieliczka Salt Mine for its natural occurrence and the church and sculptures that are said to be unique and beautiful. Wawel Castle for its history and beauty (photos I have seen), Kazmier Synagogue, Stiare Miasto (the old town) to enjoy the local culture and food. Of Santorini, my husband is very drawn to it because of the idealic white houses mounted over the sea. I would be interested in hiking the rim and the views. Also the possibility of swimming and savoring authentic greek food!

Overall, I had planned the following itinerary. The departing city form the US is either Chicago or Los Angeles. Both offer direct flights to Rome. From Chicago, there is also a direct flight to Krakow, though it can be expensive. We can also consider traveling to London form where we can board a direct flight to Santorini or Krakow or Rome. Pending this, we have yet to decide in what order we should follow our planned itinerary. Your input and all recommendations are welcome!

Krakow:

Day 1: Stiare Miasto, Bazilyka Mariacka, Cloth Hall, Town hall tower for the hourly trumpet call, Do an old town walking tour, visit the underground Historical Museum, St. Florian’s Gate, view the statues on Grodzka street, visit the Kazimier Synagogue and Plac Nowy market.

Day 2: Visit Wawel Castle and Cathedral, the Jewish Ghetto and Oskar Schindler’s Factory Museum

Day 3: Auschwiz

Day 4: Wieliczka Salt mine and anything else we may not have seen the days before in the old town.

Rome:

Day 1: Trevi fountain, Pantheon, Roman Forum, Palatine Hill, Coliseum, Arch of Constantine, Basilica Clemente, possibly Piazza Venezia and/or Piazza Navona.

Day 2: Vatican City, St. Peters cathedral, and the underground excavations

Day 3: Pompeii

Day 4: Anything we may not have seen and the possibility to add more activities.

Venice:

Day 1: St. Mark’s Square and Basilica, Doges palace, Tour the grand canal by foot and of course by gondola.

Day 2: (may be half a day or full day) Whatever we could not do the day before or simply get lost in the city’s streets.

Santorini:

Day 1: Visit the Santorini villages, go to the red beach.

Day 2: Hike from Fira to Oia.

If there is a layover in Athens, we would like to see the Acropolis, the Parthenon and the Temple of Zeus.

Italy is the must see for us. We both are flexible in what else we add keeping the travel time between cities as low as possible and considering expenses. As you can see, we are primarily interested in history, culture, nature and food. We do not care for fancy hotels or fancy shopping, though i would love to shop local and take home some unique souvenirs!

Thank you all again for your advice and recommendations. I look forward to reading your posts!

Rebeca O.

I'm usually dead on the first day after a trans Atlantic flight, I've done LA to Krakow via Chicago and it's a killer. I honestly would not be able to do 1/4th of your Krakow day 1 activities without collapsing lol! Perhaps your question should be "Italy, OR Greece, OR Poland?" But in all seriousness, I would do something along these lines:

Fly in to
Krakow (4 nights)
train to
Vienna (3 nights)
train to
Venice (3 nights)
train to
Bologna (2 nights)
train to
Firenze (3 nights)
rent car road trip through
Tuscany (6 nights)
drop off car
Roma (4 nights)
Fly out

That's already 3.5 weeks! You can always drop Tuscany and then give yourselves some more flexibility and make it under 3 weeks. For me Santorini was a meh, I much prefer Rhodes.

A cheap way to travel from Italy to Cracovia is by bus, but is a long travel. From Bologna to Cracovia the cost is around 100€ and takes 25 hours (if no problems on the route). You can check in Flixbus website for other solutions.
Does it worth spend less money than with a flight but pass more than a whole day on a coach?

About WWII remember that even Italy has a long deal with it and is possible visit a lot of important places. So even in Italy you can go deep in this argument.

About Santorini is a beautiful place, but again: does it worth the travel? If you go in southern Italy like in Puglia you find similar villages and towns, wonderful sea and very great food. Check for example Alberobello, Ostuni, Trani... But even Sicily and the Sicilian islands. Is not exactly what you want, but you save a lot of time (and money) for the travel that can be spent to see other things.

So my suggestion is to plan three different trips. Maybe the Italian one could be three 3-weeks, the Greece and the Poland ones two weeks trips. If you have 3 weeks book to Italy and do the other two next year.

Your are first timers and it is good you are asking for advice. As others have said, you are trying to do too much! What you are proposing are three different trips. You are young - you will go back! Even with three weeks, Italy is enough. You need to know that your first two days will be lost to jet lag. You also need to know that you will lose at least half of a day, if not a full day, each time you change locations. You will never do all of the things you propose in one day.

Also, you should not craft your trip around what you see on Instagram. I was just in Santorini a few weeks ago. Even the Greeks hate it. It is beautiful for about 30 minutes and then you want to leave. It is hot, overcrowded and the only thing to do is shop. Little on Santorini is authentic and there are no good beaches. I was told by all three of our Greek hosts that the Red Beach was a tourist trap. If you do Greece, do it right and make it a two week trip with a visit to Athens and a few islands, like Naxos, Paros or Crete. Anyway, beaches in March, April or October? No way.

I also don't understand why you'd go all the way to Poland in this trip and do such a fly-by. Poland is also worth 2 weeks.

For a first trip to Europe, please just focus on Italy. You also don't need to be on a direct flight from the US to Rome. You can fly into any European city and then change planes. You'll open yourself up to better fares and routes that way.

Here's what I would do with two weeks:

Day 1 - Land in Rome; rest and get dinner. Sleep in Rome.
Day 2 - Explore Rome
Day 3 - Explore Rome
Day 4 - Explore Rome
Day 5 - Explore Rome (yes, you will need all of these days to see everything in Rome and enjoy it)
Day 6 - Travel to Sorrento
Day 7 - Sorrento, Day trip to Pompeii
Day 8 - Sorrento, Day trip to Capri
Day 9 - Sorrento
Day 10 - Take the train to Venice
Day 11 - Explore Venice
Day 12 - Explore Venice
Day 13 - Venice, day trip to Verona
Day 14 - Depart

With another week, you could add Poland. You'd want to fly from Italy to Poland.

Hi Rebeca and welcome to the forum!

I'm voting with Emily here: your itinerary as published has you spreading yourselves much too thin. One of the issues that stood out for me right away was that you didn't allow for transfer time from place to place! For instance, you're not going to be able to travel from Poland to Rome on Day 1 and accomplish that day's itinerary. In addition, as you've allowed so little time for sightseeing the cities on your list, actual dates will be critical as not every attraction is open on every day of the week.

As you stated that Italy is your must-do, I'd concentrate on that country if you only have two weeks. Each city/region has its own history, cuisine and culture (Rome is not Florence, is not Venice, is not Milan, is not Naples, etc.) so there is a LOT to absorb! We love Rome; have nearly two weeks of time under the belt, and my to-do list is still very long. Anyway, travel in The Boot is easy and economical-to-downright-cheap by train, especially if you book your "fast train" journeys in advance to land some terrific price breaks. We can help you get a handle on that. :O)

If you have a 3rd week, you could add Poland but you might consider saving it for a future trip which combines that one with, say, some of Germany 'cause it's geographically closer? I'd think about adding an additional location or two in Italy, such as Florence and a hill town, instead if you can swing the extra time. Santorini? I haven't been but what I've heard from enough Folks In The Know is exactly what some others have opined above: not worth the effort unless the trip includes other islands and/or more of Greece.

October would be a really nice month to travel Italy. :O)
Just IMHO, we're all different so there are often multiple right answers to the same question but I wouldn't personally stay in the town of modern Pompeii to do the scavi, nor do it from Rome. Sorrento or Naples are better choices. You might want to allow enough time to see the scavi at Herculaneum and the excellent archeological museum in Naples, where many of the treasures from the excavations reside. For scenery, Sorrento is the more attractive of the two but also more expensive.

. . . From Chicago, there is also a direct flight to Krakow, . . .

Are you sure about this? Direct flight to Warsaw, I think is more likely. You mentioned that it was expensive, which makes it sound like you're not looking at a multi-city flight itinerary, is that right?

See my post in General Europe, slow down, drop Santorini and Krakow.

My husband and I are very active travelers who like to make the most of our time on a trip as opposed to those whose travel style is to stay in one place and "soak up the culture". We have been to all of the countries on your wish list, but it was on three different trips. With that said, I think you are trying to cram too many places into one visit, and Poland is the outlier. It is a beautiful country with warm and hospitable people and I would not short change it with such limited time. We visited everything on your list for Krakow, and also spent an amazing and memorable day touring southern Poland with Andrew Durman which was truly an experience in local culture! You may want to consider saving Poland for another visit, and combining it with perhaps the Czech Republic.

You could easily spend an entire three weeks in Italy and never run out of things to see and do. If it was my first trip overseas, I would concentrate on just Italy. Travel by train is easy and economical. We found Pompeii to be an easy day trip from Rome. After touring Rome, we traveled north into the Tuscany region and into Florence. Train again from Firenze to Venice. I would suggest doing more of a deep dive into Italy and all that it has to offer. I typically visit the local library to take a look at travel books before determining which one I may want to purchase. Although Rick's books are great and extremely useful for tips on how to navigate things, I think he totally ignores many worthwhile places in a country; hence the reason for looking at other resources.

Personally, I would also save Greece for another trip as there is so much to see and experience. Do not let others talk you out of visiting Santorini. Yes, it is crowded when the cruise ships dock, so spend a few nights there rather than visiting for one day via a cruise ship. Santorini is one place that we splurged for a hotel, as we wanted to be on the caldera and have time to relax and enjoy the sunsets without the crowds. Lithies Traditional Homes in Firostefani would be my recommendation. We found Naxos to be more "authentic" Greek and it's an easy ferry journey from Santorini. IMO a "layover in Athens" is not enough time to see the things you mentioned. Athens itself was our least favorite part of Greece, although the Acropolis and other sites are definitely worth seeing. Just don't make the main focus of a visit to that country. When you do visit Greece, consider spending time on the peninsula in the Nafplio region. Enjoy your planning!

Wow! I'm afraid I'd have to join the others -- this is an overambitious itinerary at best. Although you are young and energetic, I think you are underestimating the stress, time and fatigue associated with travelling. Learning about a culture and enjoying it requires that you actually spend time there. Poland and Italy and Greece are light years apart in terms of language, customs, culture and traditions. With the amount of time you'll have, you'd also have to consider logistics--packing and unpacking, the actual amount of time needed to get from one site to another in any given city, up to a couple of hours for each meal (and shopping for it if you're going on picnics). Laundry? Half a day. Traveling city to city? Hours. (Getting to the "close to Italy" cities/destinations, even the Greek islands, realistically, will take a day or near it.) Getting your bearings in a new city? Half day, at least. Even the seemingly simple task of finding your lodging and checking in can take time if you aren't familiar with the city and are relying on public transportation. With a jam-packed itinerary, you're more likely to remember the stress and hassles than you are the good stuff.

From what you've described, I'd also recommend Italy. It's where the bulk of your must-do cities are located, and even though you're in the same country, culture and traditions, food, and atmosphere vary quite a bit. It's easy to spend 2-3 weeks there alone, and easily a week in Rome. (Take a look at RS' Rome Highlights in a week, for example.) For a tighter budget, you can base yourselves in a couple of Airbnb's that will also have a kitchen. Markets in Italy are as much for entertainment value as they are for food shopping. Keep in mind that food is culture. There are always neighborhood trattorias, snack bars and wine bars. Eat there, too. It will definitely enrich your experience.

I'd suggest you go back to the drawing board and take a good look at guidebooks (not just RS!), websites, various travel forums (in addition to this, try Trip Advisor and Lonely Planet at least). I think you'll be able to see what might be a better match time and money-wise. In Rome, for me anyway, without a full day in the Vatican, you'll miss a lot. Pompeii is a full day trip (although Ostia Antica is also nice, fewer crowds, it's essentially the same thing, and an easy train ride from Rome). For my son, three days in Venice was plenty, but I left wanting more. I find planning easier if I literally set up a daily plan and an itinerary calendar. Start with the basics. What time do you get up? What time do the sites you want to see open? Is everything you want to see open on the day you will be there? Then, AM -- sites A and B, lunch PM --sites C and D. Dinner, maybe something afterwards (walking around cities at night is a completely different and wonderful experience). Maybe you'd want to add a third city (Florence?) or region (Puglia perhaps?) If you find yourself zipping through a particular city's sites, try branching out into the countryside near wherever you are. Or just take a day and stroll, sip a coffee and window shop. Next year, or whenever, take another 2-3 weeks to see Greece, then another 2 or 3 to see more of Poland. I don't think you'll regret it.

Some previous RS articles regarding travel/sightseeing in some parts of Italy that might be useful?

https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/articles

As some of us are recommending more time in Rome, take a look at a day walking (or biking) a long-ish stretch of the Appia Antica? That's a fun one for history lovers plus the further reaches are in the near-Rome countryside. There are lots of interesting things to see along the way. That's been our favorite day in Rome so far!

https://www.parcoappiaantica.it

My wife and I (both middle-aged) generally like to spend much time in one place, and minimize moves, and prepare many of our own meals during our travels. However, in Summer 2017 we made an exception by staying 9 nights in southern Poland -- including 6 wonderful days in Krakow, 8 nights in Croatia, and 6 nights in the Rhine Valley. It was wonderful!

The move from Krakow to Dubrovnik was a challenge, requiring us to fly through Munich. Nonetheless, it was worth it for us.

FYI on Krakow, I posted a trip report on the forum: https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/poland-wroclaw-boleslawiec-krakow-aug-2017-part-1-of-2

In Summer 2019 we traveled through Italy, starting in Sicily and ending in Rome. We decided to do again to do multiple stops, staying at nine places over 20 nights. Again, no regrets -- it was wonderful.

Sorry, but I just don't like your travel heavy plan. You are reducing your time in Italy to the point that you are seriously pushing it. Look at what you planned to do on day one in Rome! Also, even if you could squeeze in everything, the trip to Pompeii will burn up a full day or more and you will not have much time in Rome at all.

I have been to Rome twice, spent six days the first time and 4 days the second time. There are several things that I still missed in that wonderful city.

I know you want to see Krakow and Santorini on the same trip as Italy, but you are wasting so much time on travel. Don't you plan to come back to Europe? At least skip Santorini this time and plan a real Greek vacation where you take in some of the other Greek Islands, as well as Athens and other mainland places. Istanbul is great, we did five days there and it takes that to see that great city, loaded with history.

i'd have to agree with Kbk's post , dont plan too many things at once. Out of the three you can visit Greece, Santorini is worth the visit i must say and the places you mentioned in Italy are great!