How to prioritize 21 nights in Italy? (Or, Is Siena Worth It?)

Traveling solo? Been to Europe before? Interests?

I remember this from my daughter. I thought she was crazy for taking off for six weeks, waiting for the Bar results, with very little money, ( but a job secured. ). Her response was that this would be her last vacation - for several years. She was right, of course, and just made partner.

Few quick thoughts-
You're flying into Switzerland but not going to the Alps?
Go to Lucerne directly from Zurich airport- it's so easy, 1+ hr train.

Lucerne
Berner Oberland ( Murren or Wengen)
You could then go to Chur, ride the
Bernini Express to Tirano, Italy,
To Varenna, Lake Como, at least two nights.
Venice is a must- see, in my opinion, as we just returned, for the third time.
Less time in Rome, as far as I'm concerned.
And yes, skip Milan.
I personally enjoy northern Italy, and surrounds, much more than the southern Italy chaos.

However, you will get a variety of opinions here.

Have a great time planning- between Bar Prep rounds!
Best of luck!

I agree with all of the above. Also, I really love Siena, so I hope you get to see it.

If you don't want to start your trip with two one-night stays, take the train directly from the Zurich Airport to Lucerne and spend two nights there. There are luggage lockers at the Lucerne train station, or you may be able to store your luggage at your hotel if it's too early to check in. Zurich isn't a bad place to stay but Lucerne is lovely, has a choice of mountains nearby, and is a pleasant place to adjust to the time change.

You've made good choices for your stops! There is plenty to see and do in each location, as well as nearby day trips if you want to venture out a little further. I can't speak to the Lake District; if you do take a night from there I'd add it to Venice so that you have time to visit Padua.

I have visited Italy three times and still haven't been to Milan (next trip!). Italy is so rich in history, culture, food, nature...and you need a little time to absorb this as you travel. In my mind you have a great framework for a trip that will provide a variety of locales and the time to enjoy them.

Sorry, not sure how to reply directly.

@Pat:
Thank you for these very very helpful thoughts! I have been to Europe before, but they were school trips; and this is my first time in southern Europe (past trips were in the U.K. and France). I am traveling with my wife. My interests are very much historical and cultural. My wife is more interested in cuisine and scenery. We are both Catholics and plan on visiting a lot of churches/religious sites.

My interest in Switzerland is actually quite niche; besides being convenient, I want to visit Lucerne because it is the home of Hans Urs von Balthasar, a very significant figure to me. If you think Zurich can be safely dispensed with then I will happily take up your suggestion of two nights in Lucerne instead! Besides that I have done shamefully little research on Switzerland, I will look into the places you name!

Thank you for the validation on Venice! I will consider trimming Rome, but as you might guess from my current time-budgeting, it's the big one for me.

You say at least two nights for Lake Como; do you think three is justified in the context of this itinerary? Or is it better spent elsewhere?

Congrats to your daughter on making partner, that's very impressive! You must be so proud. :)

@Inbsig:
Thank you for the thought on Siena! It looks incredible. Do you think It would be worth budgeting two nights for, or could it be "done" in one night? I'd be traveling in from Florence and traveling out to Rome, so I don't think the travel on either side would take too big a bite, but I'm not sure.

@Den:
Another vote for skipping Zurich and going straight to Lucerne! I had only really given us a night in Zurich (1) to rest and (2) out of a sense of obligation to such a large Swiss city. But if I can justify skipping it for more Lucerne I gladly would.

I will also definitely look into Padua. Do you think it's more worth it than Verona or Ravenna if adding a night in that area?

Caveat: I have never researched October weather in Switzerland or on Lake Como.

I don't see any major issues with your original plan. There are always competing options, especially on a trip to Italy. Going to Venice rather than traveling straight from Lake Como to Bologna costs you an extra 2-1/2 hours on the train. That's not a lot of time over the course of 3 weeks. A bigger issue is the extra hotel change, especially when the destination is Venice, where getting from the train station to your hotel can be time-consuming. I love Venice and am not suggesting you drop it--especially since you "desperately want to see it"; I'm just pointing out the impact. The fact is that the one non-jetlagged (we can hope) day you have in Switzerland, which involves checking into two different hotels, is costing you more time than the detour to Venice.

Speaking of which, I agree that flying into Switzerland just to spend the night in Zurich and Luzern is a bit unusual. Assuming the flights aren't changeable (flying into Milan is often a reasonably priced option), I'd be inclined to postpone Bologna until my next trip and see the Alps this year--assuming the historical weather data suggests you aren't too likely to be seeing them through fog and rain (which has happened to me in June, though not recently).

If you want to see Siena, it can be done fairly well on a day trip (by bus is better than by train) from Florence. But you really would need to add a night to Florence in that case.

You have allotted 7 nights to Rome. I just spent 20 nights there earlier this year, so I know you won't run out of things to see. But 7 nights in Rome (that's 6 full days) and just 3 nights each (just 2 full days) in Venice and Florence is a sort of atypical mix. Keep in mind that Rome is a very easy city to fly into and out of. When you eventually return to Italy, you may want to see Naples and the Amalfi Coast, in which case a revisit to Rome would easily fit into the itinerary.

I have no problem revisiting favorite cities myself, but I try hard not to knowingly plan a trip with insufficient time in harder-to-reach cities. I wouldn't want my second trip to be, mostly, a repeat of the first trip. The transportation time required to re-plow old ground would bug me. Therefore, I'd suggest resisting any urge to snip a day from Venice, do a day trip from Florence to Siena without adding a night to Florence, etc. And I feel as if the way-below-optimal time in Switzerland falls into this category as well.

Edited to add: I think you'll find visiting Siena in transit between Florence and Rome costs a fair amount in transportation time. The reason is that Florence and Rome are linked by super-fast Freccia trains. Siena doesn't have Freccia service, so going there means two slower trips rather than one fast one. The bus from Florence to Siena takes about 1-1/2 hours. The train from Siena to Rome takes about 3-1/2 hours; the fastest way to make the trip is to return to Florence on the slow train, endure the layover, then take a Freccia to Rome. By comparison, you can travel straight from Florence to Rome in 1-1/2 hours.

@acraven:
I cannot tell you how helpful this comment is, thank you so much.

Do you think going straight from the airport to Luzern and spending two nights there rationalizes the Swiss portion? I'm rather fond of the notion of visiting Bologna but it's not untouchable. I'll have to think about the tradeoff of cutting it for more time in Switzerland. I am beginning to regret flying into Zurich instead of Milan!

Regarding Siena, I appreciate your edit concerning visiting it in transit to Rome enormously. That's the sort of information I'm not sure I would have found out on my own until it was too late. Am I right in understanding you that it would make more sense to add a day to Florence and day-trip to Siena and back by bus, rather than spend a night in Siena?

I also am coming around to the idea of trimming Rome back a bit. Synthesizing your comments with the others in this thread, what do you think of this revised itinerary? (Very much an open question to anyone else as well.)

• 2: Lucerne
• 2: Lake Como
• 4: Venice
• 3: Bologna
• 4: Florence (with day-trip to Siena)
• 6: Rome

Your plan looks pretty good.

Haven't been yet but we are flying in to Zurich in September and going right to Lucerne- direct train from airport- about 1 hour- so I would definitely do that- avoid the 1 nighters.

Lakes in October- not sure about weather there but 2 nights might be enough- at least it's a place you could shave a night if you need to.

Venice- definitely - do not skip. 3 nights minimum.

Bologna- you could get away with just 2 nights there unless you have specific day trips planned. A day trip to Ravenna is easy and very worth staying that extra night.

Florence 3 nights- you could get away with 2 if renaissance art isn't your thing.
Siena as an overnight would be nicer than a day trip. It's enchanting at night. I would spend 2 nights because I hate 1 nighters.
Or if you day trip then give Florence an extra night to include that day trip.

Another option is Orvieto- on the way to Rome. A beautiful Umbrian hill town, easy to get to and probably less crowded especially if during the week.

I love Rome and on first trip we spent 5 nights there. That was a good amount for a first visit. Could cut 1 or 2 nights from there. We have since returned 3 more times- it's an easy place to fly in/out of to start other Italy trips.

I would try to fit either Siena or Orvieto in as all your other locations are big busy touristy locations. A small town stay gives you a different experience and time to chill before hitting Rome. (It is slightly easier to stop in Orvieto than Siena- direct trains to Rome where Siena you would need to return to Florence or take a bus from Siena to Rome or multiple train changes)

Best of luck to you taking the bar!

I have been in Switzerland twice in August - Sept, and the weather has been great. In fact, our first trip was a RS trip, which ended the first week of Oct.
We just returned from four nights in Venice and three in Lake Como, and I wasn't ready to leave Lake Como, and it was my second time there.
I will add my Trip Reports, and as it's a lot of reading, but I know you attorneys can get thru that amount of info in no time.
Good luck!

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/lucerne-62eb4d28-60ab-4837-b4b4-91a2486eb732

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/venice-lake-como-sorrento-amalfi-coast-with-lots-of-rain

@ChristineH:
Loud and clear on skipping Zurich! I am now quite sure I will be beginning the trip with 2 nights in Lucerne.

Do you think that a day-trip to Ravenna from Bologna makes sense with 3 nights in Bologna? Or perhaps it would make more sense to do Ravenna for 1 night in-transit from Venice to Bologna? Ravenna is a town I really tried to shoehorn in during earlier drafts of the itinerary and I'm excited at the idea that day-tripping it from Bologna might work. Would love to see San Vitale and Dante's tomb.

That's a very interesting point about visiting Siena at night and trying to mix in some smaller towns. Devoting 2 nights there might solve the transit issues that @acraven brought up. What do you think of this version of the itinerary?

v3:
- 2: Lucerne
- 2: Lake Como
- 4: Venice
- 3: Bologna (day-trip to Ravenna on second day?)
- 3: Florence
- 2: Siena/Orvieto
- 5: Rome

I think this is my favorite version of the itinerary yet, but very much looking for opinions!

@Pat:
Thank you! I will read your trip reports with great interest once I'm finished with Real Property for the night!

Day 1 - take a direct (no transfer) train from Zürich Flughafen (airport) to Luzern (1h 15m): https://www.sbb.ch/en/timetable.html.
Day 2 – Luzern
Day 3 – take a direct train from Luzern to Zürich Flughafen and fly nonstop to Venice.
Day 4 – Venice
Day 5 – Venice
Day 6 – take a train from Venice’s (Venezia) S. Lucia station to Varenna-Esino station that requires a change at Milan’s (Milano) Centrale station (4h 45m): https://www.trenitalia.com/en.html. Or you can stay in Milan and day trip to Lake Como by direct train (1h 15m). It would be easier logistic wise.
Day 7 – Varenna with a day trip to Bellagio by ferry (15m).
Day 8 – Varenna with a day trip to Milan. Buy tickets for Leonardo da Vinci’s The Last Supper before leaving home.
Day 9 – take a direct train from Varenna-Esino to Bologna (2h 30m) that requires a change in Milan.
Day 10 - Bologna
Day 11 - take a direct train from Bologna to Florence (Firenze) S.M. Novella station (45m). Buy tickets for the Uffizi Gallery two months out to guarantee a reservation.
Day 12 – Florence
Day 13 – Florence
Day 14 – take a direct bus from Florence to Siena (1h 15m).
Day 15 – take a direct bus from Siena to Rome (3h). I love Siena at night but Siena alone does not require two nights as the other places you’re going.
Day 16 – Rome
Day 17 – Rome
Day 18 – Rome
This is a very doable plan with a bit of room. I do not recommend adding CHs Lauterbrunnen Valley that requires about five nights.

Do you think that a day-trip to Ravenna from Bologna makes sense with
3 nights in Bologna? Or perhaps it would make more sense to do Ravenna
for 1 night in-transit from Venice to Bologna?

Yes- I’d do 3 nights in Bologna and day trip to Ravenna. It’s quick, cheap and easy- trains every hour. You won’t have time for a few of the outlying sites but there are still 5 fabulous mosaic sites right in town. Minutes apart. Train station very close to center/sights.

All trains from Venice to Ravenna go thru/change in Bologna or Ferrara- 2.5-3 hrs- not the best use of time for a 1 night stay.
We did 2 nights in Ravenna- but your time is more limited than ours was.

Venice- normally I’d say 3N is good but you are coming off two 2N stays and from Lake Como- do 4N is great there.

Siena- check all your transportation options. Note acraven’s advice.
Siena is easily done as a day trip by bus from Florence.
Orvieto is also easily done as a day trip from Rome. You could do a 1 nighter in Orvieto.

Depends how often you want to move location- half a day for every move.

Lucerne 2
Lake Como 2
Venice 3 or 4 if day trip to Padova or other
Bologna 3- day trip Ravenna
Florence 3 or 4 if day trip to Siena or other
Orvieto 2
Rome 5

Amazing how fast you can fill up 21 nights. Sounds like a lot…until it isn’t!

Based on this past month's experience, I wouldn't attempt Mary Pat's day trips plan from Varenna Ensino to or thru Milan. That train is only an hour, but it's a regional train, so no reserved seats. Therefore it's a shoulder- shoulder standing room only experience, like being on a crowded NYC subway. Coming FROM Milan is unusually ok, but going TO Milan has been SRO each time we have been in it. This is not a great way to start a day trip of being on your feet all day.

As most of us know here, the Varenna station is currently closed due to recent landslides, but expected to open before fall.
Good luck!

At this point you don't really have bad options, we're just tweaking around the edges.

Two nights in Luzern is a big improvement.

MaryPat's point about the bus from Siena to Rome is good. It's theoretically a bit faster than the bus+train combo through Florence, but with road travel there's a bit more risk of unscheduled delays.

Traveling Venice-Ravenna-Bologna rather than Venice-Bologna-Ravenna-Bologna isn't going to make much difference in train time. It could go either way; Venice-Ravenna travel time varies. Bologna-Ravenna would probably get you to Ravenna earlier, maximizing your time there during the hours the mosaic sites are open without spending the night. The train from Venice takes about twice as long (2:20 vs. 1:10). Ravenna is a nice place to spend the night, though, and the regional train between Ravenna and Bologna doesn't require advance purchase of tickets or tying yourselves to a particular departure. You could make a decision about that once you're in Ravenna.

On a day trip from Bologna, I saw all seven major mosaic sites, including Sant'Apollinare in Classe, but not some other mosaic-related sites. Check the days and hours things are open. Many are open daily during peak season, but October may be different.

• Mausoleo di Galla Placidia. https://www.ravennamosaici.it/en/

• Basilica di San Vitale. RM website as above.

• Museo Nazionale: Archaeological museum; don't remember mosaics. www.musei.emiliaromagna.beniculturali.it/musei/museo-nazionale-di-ravenna

• Domus dei Tappeti di Pietra. 5C-6C floor mosaics. Not as impressive as the major mosaic sites. Closed Monday off-season. www.domusdeitappetidipietra.it

• Battistero degli Ariani. May have shorter days/hours off-season. https://www.turismo.ra.it/cultura-e-storia/edifici-religiosi/battistero-degli-ariani

• Basilica di Sant’Apollinare Nuovo. RM website as above.

• Basilica di San Francesco. Flooded crypt with 10C mosaics and columns.https://www.turismo.ra.it/en/culture-and-history/religious-buildings/basilica-san-francesco/

• Cripta Rasponi e Giardini Pensili: 6C mosaic in chapel; from church in Classe. More limited hours than other sites even in high season. www.criptarasponi.it/

• Battistero Neoniano: Mosaics late 5C. RM website as above.

• Capella di Sant’Andrea e Museo Arcivescovile. 5C mosaics in Capella di Sant’Andrea and exquisite 6C Byzantine ivory throne. Don't skip this. RM website as above.

• Museo TAMO Mosaico. Shorter weekend hours even in high season. www.tamoravenna.it/museo-tamo-informazioni-orari-apertura-prezzi-biglietti-indirizzo/

• Museo d’Arte della Citta di Ravenna (MAR). Contemporary mosaic was closed as of September 2022. Museum closed Monday even in high season. www.mar.ra.it/eng/Home

• Basilica di Sant’Apollinare in Classe: Accessible by local train toward Rimini or Bus 4 opposite RR station. Doesn't open until 1:30 PM on Sunday even in high season. www.musei.emiliaromagna.beniculturali.it/musei/sant-apollinare-in-classe

• Classis Ravenna. Historical/archaeological museum also located in Classe, near Sant'Apollinaire. I haven't seen this. www.classisravenna.it

I'm working my way through Switzerland on my way from France to Italy in October as well and plan to spend one night in Lucerne, one night in Chur and one night in Varenna. I would have liked to spend more time at Lake Como, but it couldn't be done this trip. Version 3 of your plan sounds lovely to me and what an accomplishment you are celebrating!

One thing I've been told is if you take the Bernina Express route from Chur to Tirano and on to Varenna, take the regional train rather than the actual BE train. It's less expensive, isn't crowded, offers the same views (and you can put the windows down to take pictures), and you can get off at any of the stops along the way to wander around or have some lunch, then catch another train when you're ready to keep going.

Drop a day from Bologna and add it to Florence. Go to Sienna as a day trip from Florence. Take the bus that leaves from the rail station.

I hope this travel-planning is a pleasant and relaxing diversion from your bar study; I recommend that. I took the bar while working full time as a law clerk (state bar membership was not required by the federal courts at that time), and I believe that some kind of diversion from the grind of bar review courses is a good thing.

I am glad to see that you decided to head straight to Luzern and spend 2 nights. With your interest in Hans Urs von Balthasar that makes sense. I read a bit about him and his connections to Luzern, particularly the churches where he attended Mass, and the early school he attended. With a full day there, you will have time to see both the Gothic Franciscan church (St. Maria) and the baroque Jesuit Church he found so beautiful. And should you wish to visit the Benedictine Abbey where he first attended school, Engelberg is a short 43-minute train ride away. It is a lovely mountain village, now a ski resort; your visit there could include nice scenery and a quiet lunch at a local café.

Luzern is quite compact and its position right on the river Reuss is very pleasant. The two churches, the train station, and numerous nice hotels are all quite close to one another on the same side of the river. Cross the pedestrian bridge (Kapellebrucke) to reach the Old Town and more hotel options, some right on the river.

I see some have suggested you take the Bernina Pass route to reach Varenna on Lake Como. This is possible, but it will add so much extra time I recommend breaking the journey into to days with an overnight stop on the way. You need to get to Tirano, well to the east on the Swiss-Italy border for the train to Varenna, and from Luzern that is not easy.

Here is a rail map of Switzerland to see the routes. Varenna is not marked on the map, but it is directly across from Menaggio on Lake Como.

https://cdn-doc.myswissalps.com/docs/default-source/rail-network-maps/swisstravelpass.pdf?sfvrsn=7788603a_56

From Luzern to Tirano, the fastest rout (5.5 hours) actually takes you south via the long and deep Gotthard Basistunnel to Lugano, then to Milan or Lecco and then to Tirano—-passing right by Varenna in the way! And you miss the Swiss part of the Bernina route entirely.

The slower way, using the entire Bernina Pass route from Chur, takes you from Luzern back to Zurich and then Chur to reach the full Bernina route, passing through Swiss villages such as St. Moritz, Samedan, and Pontresina before heading over the pass itself and down to Tirano. It is a scenic journey, but well out of your way.

My suggestion, if you do have an extra night to spare before reaching Varenna, would be the Gotthard Panorama Express from Luzern to Lugano. This is a scenic trip by boat from Luzern down the lake to Flüelen, where you board a train over the traditional Gotthard Pass route to Lugano, a lakeside town in the Ticino (Italian-speaking region of Switzerland.)

https://www.myswitzerland.com/en-us/experiences/gotthard-panorama-express/

This route runs only once a day, with the boat departing Luzern at 11:12 am. You arrive in Lugano at 16:41. This would be the place to overnight. I have long wanted to stay at this little hotel right on the lake, actually in Gandria (a short taxi ride from the Lugano train station). The website appears to not be up to date, but I have seen reviews from April of this year, so I believe they are open.

https://www.elvezialago.ch/

Of course there are nice hotels in the town of Lugano itself as well. And possible this lakeside town would meet your wishes for a lakeside town, and you could spend 2 nights here instead of heading to Varenna.

I think you have some excellent plans and have gotten good advice. I did a day trip to Siena, and it was during the Palio di Siena, and I still didn't think I needed more time there, I wouldn't spend the night. I would not recommend trimming Rome portion of the trip. I wholeheartedly recommend the inclusion of Varenna/Lake Como and Venice. Have a wonderful trip!

Please don’t follow the advice to fly to Venice. It is not good for the environment. European countries ( France so far) are trying to limit or discourage short flights between cities that are easily served by train to reduce carbon emissions. By the time you add up the time to get to the airport, wait 2 hours for security etc, fly to the other airport, and then take transport into the city it saves very little time. And getting from Venice Airport into Venice itself is either slow and complicated or very expensive (water taxi). And the ride across the lagoon is not particularly pretty.

If you want the experience of riding a water taxi in Venice to celebrate, take one from the train station to your hotel. That is a nice scenic ride, worth the €70 for some..

Think about it...each of the above locations is reduce by one due to travel. To the train/airport and then to the hotel. Unpack and settle in and then as soon as you know it--it is time for dinner. You can always take a walk after dinner. If it I was to do this itinery I would forget Lucerne and the Lake District and add time to Venice, Bologna and Florence. Reduce the number of days in Rome and add it to the above. You have been infected by the Rick Steves' curse of doing more places than you should do on one a trip. Travel should also include rest/relaxation and a vacation. You should not return home needing time to recover from all of your TRAVEL. Just my humble opinion (and experience from more than 15 trips to Europe). Hope you enjoy your time!!!!!!

We did Sienna in 2012. Arrived very late and tired, but opened our windows and got a full view of the Duomo and were stunned. If you enjoy walking at night Sienna is magical and so quiet. It's a very accessible town to see in 1 day imo. Lots of walking up hills!

We also took a wine tour from Sienna with a local guide. Just 2 of us and the guide in a van. Visited 1 winery and opted for a quick 2hrs in Volterra instead of a second winery. That was really cool. Couldn't have handled more wind anyway lol.

I recommend Pompeii as a day trip from Rome. So that makes minimum 4 full days there for me. (Ancient, Vatican, Borghese gallery & churches, pompeii)

Venice is amazing. But I think 2 days is enough. Used to arrive via night train, which was the best, but I think options for that may all be gone now. Have a great time!

“ If it I was to do this itinery [sic] I would forget Lucerne”.

But it is not your trip. Luzern is important to them for the reasons stated. That is why they are flying into Zurich to start their trip. It makes perfect sense.

With 3 weeks they have time to do this as they wish. Travel between locations and settling in to hotels may well not take them as much time as it does you. I know it doesn’t for us. We generally plan our travel days to be on the train between 10 am to 2 pm at most, arriving at the new destination around check-in time. We do not spend time unpacking as everything is organized in packing cubes. We generally are ready to get out explore the new town by 3, and do not plan dinner until 7:30 pm, so there is time. Maybe that is how they travel too. I do not see this as rushing from place to place in a Rick Steves-inspired frenzy at all. It is actually a nice compact trip on the Venice - Florence - Rome axis once they get to Italy.

My impression is this will not be their only trip to Italy. They will likely return to spend more time in the places they like. I know we did it that way. Our first trip to Italy was also a celebration. We spent 5 nights in Venice, 3 at Lago di Garda, and one in a delightful small town not too far from the Venice airport before our flight home. Then we went 10 years with repeated trips to Switzerland, several to the UK, and one to other parts of Italy before we returned to Venice—-and then we spent a month there.

It’s all good.