Help please! Transportation question

Hi Debbi -
Before even getting into the transport part, comments on these parts of your plan?

From there we will be staying in Milan and traveling out from there to
visit upper Italy like Florence, Venice, Pisa, Tuscany etc

You don't want to use Milan as a base for Tuscany: it's too far away. Florence - which is the capital of Tuscany - should be your base for this area. Your transport options around the region will be best from here. Also, what does "etc" mean? What are you looking at in addition to Florence, Pisa and maybe some towns in Tuscany reachable by public transit?

...then take a train to Rome and that will be our home base while
visiting Naples, Pompeii, Sicily etc.

You definitely don't want to use Rome as a base for Sicily, and I wouldn't recommend it for Naples+ Pompeii + "etc". either depending, again, on what "etc" means. If it's the Amalfi Coast, then again, it's too far away. For that area you'd want to base in, say, Sorrento.

Sicily is not a day trip from a "base" on mainland Italy: it's a trip all by itself usually involving a fair amount of days to do justice to.

Editing to add: how old is your son, and what time of year are you planning this trip for?

Using Milan as a base to visit Venice, Florence and Tuscany will result in some very long day trips. With the bulk of your 3-4 weeks in Italy, it would be easier to visit Milan and then Venice, followed by a home base in or near Florence for your Tuscany day trips. Florence has great train and bus connections to many places in Tuscany. You might even consider splitting your Tuscany time between Florence and an agriturismo, although a rural stay would most likely require a car.

Edit: I initally missed the part about using Rome as a base to visit southern Italy, and I agree with the above poster that it's not practical. Italy is bigger than it looks on a map.

Kathy, thank you

It is all still in the planning stages. It will not happen until Sept of 2020 for two reasons. 1) Money (need to save!) and 2) I am planning to try and take the whole month of Sept off. My son is 22

Any and all advice will be very much appreciated on any part of the trip. I have never been and its a bucket list place for me. We plan on taking the train from London to Paris as it's faster. We are not staying in London at all.

I am not wanting to pack and unpack every two days while in Italy. I am very flexible on where to stay and could even stay in 3 different places and travel from there if it's feasible. I could stay up to possible 3 weeks in Italy total. I am going to buy RS guidebook to Italy for sure in the next couple of weeks. I am wanting to try to have a good idea on our itinerary by Oct/Nov of this year as that is when I will know if I get the month off or not. I know its a long way off, but I want to learn as much as possible to make it a fun and relaxing trip for us.

Frank,
Thank you for the reply. I am actually thinking about a group tour to Tuscany. I have seen some different day trips on trip-adviser which I used when I took my solo trip to Ireland. Any thoughts on where to stay besides Rome? I do want to fly out of there and I do want to see parts of lower Italy. I just thought I could work our way down through Italy from Milan down and leave from Rome. Any and all advice is most welcome!

Using Milan as a base to visit Venice, Florence and Tuscany will
result in some very long day trips.

In addition to the time it would take to day-trip from Milan or Rome, you also have to consider the expense for the trains which cover ground the fastest. Price breaks often be snagged if purchasing well in advance but day-of tickets are usually "base" priced and the most expensive. For instance, the fastest train journey from Milano Centrale to Firenze (Florence ) S.M. Novella is 1 hour, 39 minutes, and tickets for 7:20 AM tomorrow costs 56 euros one way. It's as expensive or more coming back in the evening.

Maybe budget doesn't matter as much for you but for many, optimizing price as well as time is a consideration. :O)

Editing to add:

I am going to buy RS guidebook to Italy for sure in the next couple of
weeks. I am wanting to try to have a good idea on our itinerary by
Oct/Nov of this year as that is when I will know if I get the month
off or not. I know its a long way off, but I want to learn as much as
possible to make it a fun and relaxing trip for us.

An excellent place to start, and you have TIME to do some reading, planning and chatting with the folks here on the forum so no rush. Yay for that, eh? No, you don't want to be moving around every day/2 days but with focus and enough time to work with, you can base in multiple places and take some day trips. There will be a difference between 3 weeks and 4 weeks there so you'll need to be realistic, especially if you want a "relaxing" trip. Many of us here are indie travelers so going it on your own in much of Italy is not difficult and a money-saver as well, IMHO.

For Tuscany, base in Florence + days trips
For Rome, base in Rome. Some day trips are possible from there.
For Naples, Pompeii and Amalfi Coast: base in Sorrento
For Milan, base in Milan. A day trip to Lake Como is possible from there.
For Venice, base in Venice.

Sicily I'd leave for a different trip, and I'd cut 1 from the above list if you've 3 weeks and spend 4 days of that in Paris. Do remember that your TRAVEL days to and from Europe don't count, and to subtract at least 1/2 a day for every location change you make. Also, it's more accurate to count your number of nights on the ground in Europe than days.

Debbi, a big question comes up immediately: if you're not staying in London, why are you flying there? Some cheap airfare 15 months in advance? Not so cheap if you add the cost of the Eurostar and you're losing a whole day of vacation time. Same for a return to London for the flight home. Thats like flying into New York City so you can visit Florida. Consider an open-jaw flight - in to Paris, out of Rome. In fact based on all the places you want to see, maybe you should skip Paris too, and just focus on Italy.

The way transportation works in Europe is that whenever you change locations, you will eat up a half to a whole day in transit. All those places look close on a map, but it takes time to get there. Even a short flight or train ride requires getting to and from the airport or rail station, checking in and out of a hotel, and going through two hours waiting to board a flight.

Most of those places you listed are not practical to do as day trips. The distances on the map are deceiving. You wouldn't have time to actually do or see anything. Sicily is a 10 day trip all by itself.

I strongly suggest you spend some time with a good guidebook for Italy and whatever other place you're actually going to stay (Paris?) and determine how much you want to see in those places. Take a look at the RS tour itineraries (on the link above on this page)and see how their time is managed to give you a more realistic perspective of what's doable, even though it would be hard to travel at that pace independently.

Please don't get discouraged. You will have a great experience. We just don't want you to bite off too much to chew. Plan on going back to see the places you miss this time.

Stan,

after reading I will probably skip Sicily all together.

I was thinking about flying to Paris, but there is a ten hour layover from London to Paris and I thought a 2.5 train ride from London to Paris was better and we only plan on staying there 3 days to see some sights. I do not have an expendable pocket book and I am still in the planning stages at prices and costs and that is one reason why I was asking about transportation. I have read some posts on here that people have saved money taking trains and buses, that is why I was asking. And purchasing them in advance is cheaper. I am just looking for advice on the best way to get places and that is most cost effective. I tell you it was much easier researching Ireland than Italy LOL. I have tried looking into the train systems and it's all confusing to me.

Bologna would be the only city where you could stay and make day-trips by bullet trains to Florence (35 minutes), Milan, Mantua, Ravenna and Venice. Bologna is cheaper than Milan and maybe prettier. For sure it's not overrun with tourists like Florence and it isn't a theme park like historical Venice.

If you are on a budget, Note that there is an SNCF direct train from Paris Gare de Lyon to Turin Porta Susa, where you can get on an italian high speed train headed to Milan, Venice or Bologna.

Day tripping from Rome to Sicily... an Island that's 435 miles away and 9,900 sq. miles wide... would be tiresome, time-consuming and expensive. Leave Sicily for your next trip.

it's all confusing to me.

I think you should take a good look at a map, then learn italian city names. The high speed backbone goes from Turin to Salerno via Milan, Bologna, Florence, Rome and Naples.

There are two competing train companies: trenitalia.com/en.html and italotreno.it/en
The former runs high speed trains and most slow trains all over Italy. Italotreno runs only high speed trains between major cities. Start looking up schedules and fares on both sites, putting a day of travel within the next 180 days; since you don't know where you are going to sleep, pick the main stations for now: Firenze SM Novella, Milano Centrale, Venezia S. Lucia and Roma Termini.

Dario,

Yes, Sicily will be taken out of the equation. I thank you for your thoughts on places to day and travel from. I am reading all posts and taking it all into consideration as it will help me plan my trip better. I have had help tonight at work figuring out that some places will have to be missed in Italy as they are just too far away. And that is ok.

Italy train system

Thank you again Dario
I have looked those up and have downloaded a couple apps that they use to check times and dollar amount.

Sorry, but one more question, Debbi?

Why Paris at all on this trip? It sounds as if you don't plan to stay there long - and Paris can easily eat a week without running out of things to do! - and that your focus is really on Italy. Any reason not to just set Paris as well as Sicily aside for future trips and just concentrate this one on The Boot?

Don't focus/stress over the Italian train details that right now. Planning the most convenient, most enjoyable bases for the things you and and your son want to see and do is more important. We can help you with the trains once you figure that out, OK? This is a great site for some reading up, though:

https://www.seat61.com/Italy-trains.htm

Oh, and what DO you and your son want most to see and do in Italy? That can determine which locations to spend the most time in and which to drop or spend fewer days in.

Debbi, why not fly directly to Paris? Where are you flying from? Are there no non-stops from the US to Paris from there? Even if not, I'll bet we can identify a much shorter layover. Give us your approximate dates and home airport.

The website The Man in Seat Sixty-One (google it) is a very instructive site on how to plan and use trains in Europe. Lots of country-specific information. Its not hard - like getting on the subway in NYC, not like airlines. The RS link on the left of this page on Travel Tips, is also helpful, as well as the guidebooks you're looking into. Each country's railroad operators has their own website where you can look at schedules and buy tickets in advance (you don't have to, but often get big discounts). The easy to use German rail website bahn.com can give you a comprehensive route information, but does not sell tickets for non-German trains. Working through the different fares and options can be confusing, but its doable.

Yes packing an unpacking is stressful, but managing a bunch of day trips is worse. You waste a lot of that precious vacation time going back and forth.

I agree w/ other posters about travel time. PLUS the cost of the trains will add up fast.

5 years ago, half way though a trip to France, I had a terrible time packing/unpacking and everything was getting jumbled.
I've since discovered the Eagle Creek Spectre garment folder. Life is SO much better!
Other people may have other problems and solutions but the Spectre keeps the clean shirts/pants organized.
I don't care about the dirty stuff - just need to wash it and hang it to dry ... then care about it again :-)

The point being - you may solve your issue of moving every three nights. I think it will add to the enjoyment of the trip.

Hi Debbi; we spent a month in Italy a couple years ago. We flew into Milan and spent 3 nights in the Lake Como area; then drove to Levanto (hotel with parking) for 2 nights and toured the Cinque Terre villages; then on to Chianti and stayed in a villa for two weeks which was close to Florence and each day we toured a different Italian Village example: Pisa, Montepulciano, Siena etc. even Assisi.
We then drove to Positano and stay 4 nights exploring the Amalfi coast with a ferry to Capri.
We finished our trip driving to Rome & dropping the car off outside of the Historic centre then took a taxi to our hotel for 4 nights.
Driving is easy, you do need a GPS in finding all the little villages. Go to AAA and get an International Driver's License (needed in Italy).
When you rent a car in one city & return to another in Italy there is no drop off charge. When you drive, you can see more without having to wait for trains or even groups tours don't take you to where you want to go. Research B&B's along the way (with parking) as you get to stay where you want & it's a lot less expensive this way.
Hope this helps a little,
Jean

In addition to Rick Steve's guidebooks, watch his videos on youtube for the places you are considering going to. You may (probably) will change your mind about some places. Example, Milan would not be on my list for a first time visit, unless you fly into there.

Thank you all

Stan I'll be flying out of Seattle WA. Only non stop is to London. Sept 2020 is my goal for month. Probably Sept 1-24 ish. Might be less but no more.

Thank you all for your comments and responses. They are appreciated for sure. I will take everything into consideration as I plan out our trip. It will be a slow process so I can learn what I would like to learn along the way.

Is there a particular airline you want to fly? Delta has nonstop flights from Seattle to Paris and to Amsterdam, with reasonable connections onward to Venice, Bologna, and Rome (perhaps other Italian cities, too). Lufthansa flies from Seattle to Frankfurt, Aer Lingus to Dublin, Icelandair via Reykjavik--then have connecting flights to Italian cities. I prefer connecting in Europe--at least I'm closer to my destination if the flight out of the US is delayed, and there are likely to be more options to get me to my final destination. I like to use Google Flights to research options, then book directly with the airline I plan to fly. September of 2020 is too far out to see schedules, but you can play around with dates for September or October of 2019 to get an idea of routes, schedules, and costs.

If you want to spend time in Paris, choose the "Multi City" option--the outward flight would be Seattle to Paris, then return from Venice/Rome/Bologna/other Italian city to Seattle. We did this on our spring trip to Italy, flying from Portland to Venice via Amsterdam, returning Bologna to Portland via Amsterdam. Since all flights are booked on a single ticket, you are protected if there are any flight delays--the airline will have to get you to your final destination on another flight. I have found airline employees to be very helpful if there is any kind of a "glitch".

I hope this helps you with choosing options. Right now you are probably feeling a little overwhelmed with figuring out various transportation systems, destinations, etc. It WILL get easier as you begin to narrow your choices! Once you choose specific destinations, be sure to come back to this Forum with questions. You will have a marvelous trip!

I'll be flying out of Seattle WA. Only non stop is to London.

I just checked Delta. There are non stops to Paris CDG. You could do open jaw to Paris non stop, then fly out of Rome with a layover in Amsterdam, then non stop to Seattle.

You could spend a week in Paris, two weeks in Tuscany, then a week in Rome.

You've gotten a lot of great advice. I just wanted to add: Seattle is my nearest large airport and where I usually fly from for international trips but sometimes it is possible to save quite a bit by flying in and out of Vancouver BC. Since I am north of Seattle, it actually doesn't add much to my commute to the airport and can be well worth the savings. Check it out

Debbi,

You've received lots of good advice so far, and I have a few thoughts to add.

To begin with, given your home location I would highly recommend taking a drive up to Edmonds and have a chat with the very knowledgeable team at Rick Steves Europe. While there you can have a look at the Europe Through The Back Door and RS Italy guidebooks. The Italy book would be a good one to pack along. I believe you indicated that you hadn't been to Europe before, so you'll also need Plug Adaptors, a Money Belt for each of you and a few other accessories, which you can buy at the RS travel store.

You may also want to avail yourself of their trip planning service, which is offered for a small charge. They will be able to sort out all the details and tailor a wonderful holiday for you. You could also give some thought to a RS tour in conjunction with some self guided travel. If you put the tour at the beginning, it will give you a chance to get your feet wet and become comfortable with travels in Italy.

I haven't read all the previous replies so I'll add a few comments on your initial post.....

• it's a waste of time to fly into London if you have no plans to spend a few days there. I'd suggest either flying inbound to Paris or skip France entirely and focus on Italy.
• I'm not sure whether there are direct flights from Seattle to Milan, but I'm sure one of the others can help with that.
• if you plan on using a variety of "home bases" for day trips, it's a good idea to choose locations that are close enough so that you don't waste a lot of time on day trip transportation.
• Milan is a good home base for trips to Lago di Como or Lago Maggiore. Varenna (on Lago di Como) would be a great place to start out and get over jet lag for a few days. Florence is a good home base for locations in Tuscany such as Siena, Lucca or Pisa, and also possible to take trips from there to Venice or Padova. Rome is a good home base for Orvieto or Assisi. If you want to see something of the south, you might consider staying in Sorrento for a few days and touring Naples, Pompeii, Capri, Positano or other locations.
• I agree with others that it would be a good idea to skip Sicily as it deserves a separate trip.

There are a few potentially expensive caveats to be aware of when using public transit in Italy, but those can be covered when you get further along in your planning.

It's great that you're getting an early start on your planning!

From Seattle, you may not have any nonstops to Italy, but that doesn't mean you can fly through London, Amsterdam, or Paris to Italy all on one ticket. That's the best way to go; otherwise, you waste a lot of time, as well as introducing risk. If you buy Seattle to Italy all on one ticket, the airline is responsible for getting you to your final destination, at their expense. If you (for instance) buy Seattle to Paris and then separate tickets (train or flight) to Italy, and your flight from Seattle to Paris is delayed so you miss your next leg, YOU are responsible, both logistically (you have to figure it all out on your own) and financially (you have to buy new tickets at last minute prices).

Furthermore, you can book "open jaw" (also called "multi city" or "multiple destinations") tickets. This means you can, for instance, fly Seattle to Venice and Naples to Seattle, all on one ticket. These are usually not much more money than a simple round trip, and even if they do cost a bit more, you save time, money, and hassle by not backtracking.

So, once you've figured out where you want to go in Italy, you can start looking for multi city flights from Seattle to Italy. Of course, if you really want to see London, Paris, or Amsterdam, you can do that as one of your legs. But, flying somewhere you don't want to see, just because they have a nonstop flight, is a false economy.

I also want to emphasize that you need to stay in the areas you want to see, not several hours away from them. Trying to see Florence or Venice from Milan is like trying to see Seattle from Portland.

Your idea of home bases is good, but use a narrower radius. For instance, from Venice you can see Verona, Padova, Ferrara, and other places not too far away; just don't try to see Florence or Milan from there.

Depending on how long you have, you'll probably have to cut down your wish list for your trip (you've already cut Sicily, but be prepared to cut more). When it comes to travel, less is more. Stay in fewer places and spend more time actually seeing them. This also reduces cost.

Added bonus: by staying in fewer places and just seeing things in the region, the transit becomes much easier!

Milan is a reasonable base for day trips to Lake Como (1 hour to Varenna), maybe Verona (a little more than an hour), but as others have indicated not all of the northern half of Italy. You can get a rough idea about travel times from rometorio.com or more specific information from trenitalia.com. A day trip strategy works best out of Florence as many good places to visit are within a reasonable distance. Orvieto is do-able as a day trip from Rome, if you stay near Termini. The areas around Florence S.M. Novella and Rome Termini are not exceptionally seedy in my recent experience (last visit Oct-Nov 2016). Generally I think the day trip strategy is a false economy because in big cities you lose time getting to the train station and waiting for the next departure to your destination. It's fine for one or two day trips but as a fundamental strategy, not advisable. Also, you are usually paying much higher hotel rates to stay in cities that would serve as the basis for day trips. Why do you want to fly back from London? Open jaw probably makes more sense: into London and out of Rome.

Debbi,

A few more comments.....

If you decide to fly directly into Milan and skip London and Paris, you'll likely find several flights from Seattle with one layover in Frankfurt. FRA is a very large airport but things are well organized so using a connecting flight from there should be fairly easy.

You have a lot of day trips planned. Don't forget to enjoy Dolce far niente and enjoy Italy the best of Italy. You may enjoy this - https://www.203challenges.com/dolce-far-niente-the-meaning-of-the-italian-concept-explained-by-italians/ .