Fine at a toll booth

What I see here --- https://www.viamichelin.com/web/Routes/Route-Florence-50100-Firenze-Italy-to-Greve_in_Chianti-50022-Firenze-Italy ---- indicates a toll of 5-6 euro.

Perhaps ask at the your hotel what the 40 euro bill is about and how to contest it?

Gosh I’m sorry this happened to you
Hopefully Roberto or Dario will be along to help

I’m curious as to why you took the toll road?

We took it on the advice of the rental agent, to avoid the city.

Ok
I don’t believe you would have gone into the city taking the non toll route
Whatever that route is -is the one we took using our GPS

Too late now. The problem was not with taking the toll road.

The honking cars behind you didn’t help. Even if they didn’t understand the difficulties you were having at the toll booth, it wasn’t your fault that they picked the “wrong” line to get in. Probably tailgated others to and from the toll area.

Your rental company may not be sympathetic, but do you have a means of contacting them? If you don’t pay the full fine amount, there’s likely a photo of your license plate the toll plaza snapped, and it would be traced to the rental company, who will trace the supposed offense to you … and levy further expenses for their trouble. Perhaps they can resolve what needs to be paid, what is reasonable, and how.

Hope the rest of your trip is going well, despite the toll fiasco.

I think Italy is notorious for drumming up sundry charges for rental cars. We received a ticket 360 days after our trip (we learned they have a year to notify you of an infraction-at least this was the case in 2016) It occurred in Pisa. My husband was looking for a parking space. We had been so diligent to avoid the pitfalls of those "gotcha" "violations"-- we went down a small street, I saw the sign "must have neighborhood pass" or something to that effect, and told my husband to stop and turn around. Apparently they must have electronic eyes or some sort of detection thing to catch this. We got a ticket for 100 euro. We were told to pay it by Hertz and American Express. It wasn't worth it to fight it. I just chalked it up to another travel tax.

I think we may have traveled down the same toll road as you. It was nerve wracking to try to figure it out the first couple of times. We were using the toll road everyday and got used to it. At least we had people at the time that manned most of the booths. It sounds like that may not be the case now.

It's tough to have this happen at the onset of a trip. They may have taken your money, don't let them steal your time and enjoy your trip.

Mo R, your comment "I think Italy is notorious for drumming up sundry charges for rental cars." is silly. Percentagewise, there are so few foreigners in Italian rental cars, it's like saying Utah is targeting Quebecers.

The reason for the Euro 40.40 amount is that it's the highest toll possible at that toll both. That is the defined penalty for no ticket. The attendant apparently thought they had no choice since a conversation was not possible and traffic was backing up. Look on your toll ticket for the particular autostrada company involved and look on their website for an appeal process. They will typically accept a toll from an alternate entry point backed up by something as simple as a plane ticket or restaurant credit card receipt.

Mike, I agree. I don’t feel a victim here just wish the machine had spit out the ticket instead of keeping it. Or that they could at least read it.
We have the car rental documents and if we get the chance to dispute, we can show that we had been on the road for all of 15 minutes.

bap, it is a stressful moment, to be sure, when that tinny voice shouts at you. The attendant needed an entry point to match you up, and Florence has multiple entry points and not one called airport, so they had no way to resolve the dilemma. The system does have license plate readers everywhere so if there's verbiage on the violation, perhaps you can get to the appeal webpage that way. Make note of your license plate number (targa) before turning in the car.

South of Florence you must have been on the A1, managed by Autostrade per l'Italia S.p.A.
Their main website is https://www.autostrade.it/en/home

It's hard to figure out, but by clicking first on 'Tolls', eventually one reaches this page: https://www.essediessespa.it/en_US/english/assistenza-mancato-pagamento
They don't mention an appeal process per se, but rather "Self-certifying entrance station". I couldn't follow it all the way, but after you accept an incomprehensible agreement in Italian, there's a screen to enter your true entry point. Hopefully that will solve your dilemma.

If you go asap to a Punto Blu office they will check the security videos and calculate the right amount. Note down your plate number.

You know that those tickets have a magnetic strip, don't you? And that you can change the language of the machines by pushing the UK flag?

Apparently they must have electronic eyes or some sort of detection thing to catch this.

Aka traffic cameras, and they told you to pay it because they knew you were wrong and there is no way to contest a fine based on a timed pic of a car breaking the rules. What could have you written to the the Judge to get your fine cancelled?

It seems to me that many US drivers are notorious for expecting a special treatment for no reason. When they discover the real world does not work this way, they complain online about "drumming up" and "sundry charges".

I know that the toll from Bari (Puglia) to Florence is about 40 euro, therefore I think you were charged the maximum toll possible from the farthest freeway entry to Florence within the Autostrade per l’Italia company system (there are multiple companies operating different freeways but that one in Florence is operated by Autostrade per l’Italia company). Charging the maximum toll is the standard practice for those losing the ticket, but as Dario said you can later appeal and get reimbursed for the excess after they check all camera records (all car license plates are photographed at entry and exit points). I never had to go through that procedure so I don’t know how it works but 40€ is definitely the maximum toll to Florence from somewhere far in southern Italy.

you can later appeal and get reimbursed

Rather than going in person to a Punto Blu office, as I wrote above, they can get the debt reduced online here: https://www.autostrade.it/en/rmpp But they have to know where they actually entered the motorway network.

Dario is right and elsewhere on that site it mentions you can do the self-certification of your entry point during the payment process.

I agree with Mo. I have driven in Italy with my personal car when we lived in Germany from 87-91 and even then getting a ticket was a problem.

Now, I read many posts on this forum about people getting a ticket in the mail, perhaps a year after their trip. The fines are outrageous.

When we go back to Italy, no way am I renting a car.

I’m not understanding what bap’s “mistake” or “rule breaking” was.
Sounds like bap did everything right. Put the ticket in the machine but it didn’t come out. Machine then printed a €40,40 ticket to be paid.
Why? What am i missing?

I don't see anyone implying that bap did something wrong or broke any rules.
From Roberto and Dario's explanations it appears the machine ate the ticket, therefore bap was charged the full toll- standard procedure for a "lost ticket".

This is in response to others claiming they are being treated unfairly simply because they are tourists in a rental car.

But only a problem if you break the rules and for some reason expect
to be let off because you're not a local.

We've rented cars and driven in UK, Ireland, Wales, France, Germany and in Italy x3. So a total of about 8 weeks driving. Only ticket we ever got was in Germany for going about 5 km over speed limit in a residential area. We assumed we probably did and paid the very reasonable 40 euro fine (IIRC)- just as we would if we got dinged by a speed camera here in US- and those fines are often a LOT more than 40 euros.

Actually the whole incident seems strange. If you picked up the car at Florence airport with the intention of going to Greve you can enter the freeway toll both at Firenze Nord (maybe easier but a bit longer since it’s some backtracking) or at Firenze Scandicci after taking the Indiano Bridge viaduct (shorter way). Either way the exit you must take is either Firenze Impruneta or Firenze Sud (if taking the SR222 Chianti Road). The distance is less than 10 km and from Firenze Scandicci to Firenze Sud costs just 1€ something so the toll should not have been over a couple of € even assuming the longest distance from Firenze Nord to Firenze Sud.

Regarding the fines, that is a different story. I noticed this week they installed a lot of new speed camera machines and the speed limit is a sluggish 50km/h almost everywhere, even where a higher speed limit would be totally reasonable. They are set to trigger about 10% above the speed limit (55) so you really have to be careful. Every village has a couple of those machines. Personally I think they are trying to make money out of people, and most of my relatives here think exactly the same. They are not targeting Americans since the cameras don’t know the nationality of the drivers, they are simply targeting everyone and my Italian relatives aren’t happy either. They know the location of the machines near home but they can’t know the location of all of them throughout the country. When the travel in places they are not familiar with they rely on Waze, which Italians consider the greatest invention after the invention of the wheel.

Dario, I believe that I presented this situation to the forum as a conundrum. If you had read my comments, I never expected special treatment as a tourist, and by the way, I am not American.
We had been in Italy for two weeks before picking up a car and we had spent exactly fifteen minutes driving before encountering a problem. We’ve driven here before (in the north) and also France, Spain, Indonesia so I think it is somewhat ironic. I also think that if I presented the ticket incorrectly (we had looked and saw the arrows), the machine could have ejected my ticket so I could re-enter it.
On this forum, I asked for thoughts and assistance, personal comments I did not expect. That aside, thanks for the info. I had also found a website mentioning the Punto Blu office. Since it is Easter weekend we will not be able to do anything until Tuesday, and maybe not even then depending what we’re doing. We are now in Montepulciano and the offices are south of here or in Siena.
It doesn’t hurt to post this on this forum so that others can become aware that the “devil is in the details” and we just might have presented the ticket upside down or something as dumb as that.
This does in no change my feelings of awe and love for this country. Sorry, but Dario’s words stung a bit.

Mike, Thanks for the time you’ve put in to help us. I simply think that if there is a process for recourse one should use it. I will try if I can but also not waste my precious travel time. We are here for six weeks and will be renting again in the south later in the month and I needed to get a better understanding of this.

Roberto, I am not concerned with speeding. It is easy for us to follow the limits. Driving all through the backroads of Chianti today the limit was often 90 km where it would require a Maserati or a Porsche to make those curves at that speed. Because we have the time and location of where we picked up the car, we have proof. Now, we just have to see if we have the time. Thanks

Dario, I will try the websites. Thanks so much.

Except for the freeway (Raccordo) that connects Florence to Siena, where the speed limit is indeed 90 km/h, if you saw 90 km/h speed limits on the backroads of Chianti, I am afraid you might have indulged too much on the wine tasting. 🤣🤣.

Regarding the toll booth ticket I can’t really explain what happened, but the toll should have been definitely under 2€.

Ok, so the “breaking the rules”
part had nothing to do with this topic.
Hate it when people don’t stick to the topic, in this situation it confuses everything.

For most travel in Italy, take the train. Between the ZTL zones, the high cost of gas, and various other components of driving, what is the reason to drive?

Turn in your car and stick with public transportation. My wife and I spent 3 weeks in N Italy. We took trains everywhere. The trains were clean, on-time, with staff who spoke English, and got us to our destinations easily.

Sorry, but Dario’s words stung a bit.

The first sentence I wrote was a simple reminder about magnetic tickets, I assumed it was easy to understand why: do not fold a motorway ticket and do not keep it close to a smartphone or any kind of speaker.

You wrote you did not understand the flashing message, so I reminded you that you can switch those machines to English. If you had understood what the flashing message was about now you wouldn't be in this situation.

The final part of my message was below a line because it wasn't addressed to you but to someone from US who wrote the absurd message I have quoted. In short, you have no good reasons to feel stung.

I’m just happy to learn that the ticket machines DO have a button for English as there is a bit of apprehension when you approach your first toll booth-you tube viewing or not.

I’ve driven all over Tuscany and Umbria many times, never got a ticket/violation of any kind. We’ve also taken more trains than i can count. Sometimes driving is better, saying not to drive in Italy is just silly. Could also say don’t drive anywhere, ever, even in your hometown based on how many people die in car accidents every day.

What happened to bap could have happened to me, or to anyone. Won’t stop me from driving though. I appreciate you sharing what happened to you bap, thank you.

Thank you Susan. We had an amazing day driving around Chianti yesterday (one wine tasting at Brolio, on a full stomach). Couldn’t have reached these places and killer views without the car.
Thank you to the others for sound advice. I will poke around the website. As far wasting travel time, reading opinions on if we should be driving, or if we are entitled tourists, or should just write it off, has been a higher cost of time than I had expected. Happy trails all. I will post results if there is a worthy outcome.
90 km was posted speed between villages which were 50 and one time 30. Confirmed by our GPS.

Dario-- Maybe it's a cultural thing, but maybe if you re-read your comments, they are coming off as rude and condescending.

"It seems to me that many US drivers are notorious for expecting a special treatment for no reason. When they discover the real world does not work this way, they complain online about "drumming up" and "sundry charges"."

There are many articles on the web about Italy being famous for its traffic tickets.

I hope you are having a better day.

they are coming off as rude and condescending.

How funny, I think the exact same thing of your message. I also think it's based on nothing (aka articles on the web), whereas mine begins with "it seems to me" and it's based on the things people actually write. Yours begins with "it's notorious", talking about rudeness.

Incidentally this thread is not about a fine but about a toll. One that can be reduced to the right amount via web filling a form, nobody's taking anybody's money. Let's not make it become a source about what's notorious.

I’m pulling for the original poster, as it seems so are most respondents. I hope it’s not too much of a bureaucratic hassle to get this resolved.

Dario, I have to agree with the others, my take on your comments and attitude are that they were at best condescending and generally show an attitude that the OPs post did not deserve and an attitude against Americans in general that is uncalled for on what is in fact a US companies website and that is aimed mostly at and participated mostly by Americans,
If that was not your intention or if you are simply having issues with your wording then I apologize for my comments but your two post’s definitely come off as rude at least to me.

The reality is that I have Driven in a half dozen countries in Europe, i have drive anll over the US and into Canada. I have traveled in Europe for over 45 years and have countless friends that travel the world regularly and have been on every continent on the planet and driven on most of them (all of them you can drive on that is) I have friends or family that have/do life in various countries in Europe including but not limited to GB, France, Germany and Italy. I have read this and other forums and other tr Abel related things going back to travel books in the 70s and frankly in order for the amount comments/references and other things involving tickets and other similar issues in Italy to be even twice as high as the rest of the world combined Italy would have to have 100x the number of tourists as the entire world does.
The disparity between the number of times I have talked with or read about or watch someone talking about Tickets and other issues with Diving in Italy is easily 100 to 1 when compared to the rest of the world.

Italy is SO notorious for tickets and fines for drivers and having bad drivers and other issues that i actually came on the forum tonight to investigate options for traveling around Italy without using a car at all.
I obviously don’t know WHY Italy has so many posts, articles and videos about tickets and dr Irving issues compared to other countries (and frankly you don’t either) but if I was involved in whatever passes for the Government agency concerned with tourism (what surely a huge source /amount of money to Italy) I would definitely be concerned and look into the Issue as the reputation Italy has for ticketing drivers can NOT be good for its tourism industry.
In fact it is so bad that even though I want to visit Italy and my Sister wants to visit Italy, the truth is that if I have to drive in Italy I probably won’t go, or at least I won’t go to places I have to drive.

There is a place in West Virginia that is near a national park and gets huge numbers of tourist for rafting and such and the town is a complete rip off as it has roads that the speed limit just suddenly drops on and it is notorious for ticketing out of state people because they won’t /can’t fight the tickets. So don’t pretend that governments won’t/cant target people that won’t/cant easily fight the tickets. And it is easy enough to place signs in locations most won’t see them or otherwise manipulate the situation so that non locals are much more likely to get in trouble than those in the know.

Locally I have a speed limit sign that drops the speed 25 miles an hour with Zero warning (good luck) and I know of someone that got ticketed for “slamming the breaks to hard} to slow down. Another location has a 15 drop in speed just at the top of steep hill and only on the hill and the sign is hidden by tree branches that oddly never get cut down. Right now I have a temp speed limit sign on my road dropping the speed by 25mph for no obvious reason, with no warning and arguably against state law.
So it can and does happen that governments target out of town/state/country drivers who don’t know better.
The number of issue reported in this site along vs all the other countries combined is enough to be alarming.

And the situation with the ticket is not the OPs fault, if Italy wants to automate the system then it is Italys responsibility to make it work.

Italy has ZTLs and the Tutor System, the other countries you mentioned don't. Sorry, there isn't a "non condescending" way of replying to your 30 lines and tell you that yes, I know why.

90% of the complains you read on line are by people who had no idea about the ZTL sign, was fined, complained on the Internet because they had no idea their "notorious" country does not use international signs... and become a source for future complains.

I could finish the explanation telling you about Protestant societies, predestination, stereotypes and the snow-ball effect in the Age of Internet. Luckily we are on a travel forum, not in an University Classroom, and I doubt you are interested in my opinion about it.

And the situation with the ticket is not the OPs fault

You have no idea whose fault it is.You are simply defending a countryman and judging by stereotypes. For years I have kept my motorway ticket in the inside pocket of the jacket, where my phone is. The day I drove for 1,080 kms from Milan to Bari, guess what happened?

Technical failures do happen and people do stupid things all over the world, "Italy" (aka a private company that manages the Motorways) has the responsibility to offer an easy solution. There are 2: Punto Blu offices and the Autostrade site. Where, as already explained twice, the OP can get his ticket reduced to the right amount.

That's enough to protect anyone's right to be treated fairly. Just like Fines that can be appealed by registered mail and pics used to fine that must be viewable online.

This thread is becoming very over heated and is out of all context to a 36 Euro overcharge, which was in no way a fine, let alone targeted.
The OP has received the advice how to appeal the overcharge, and even as good an explanation as is possible as to how that might have happened.
Anything else is now non productive hot air, which is becoming unhelpfully personal.
The only thing left to say now is for the OP to update if and when the appeal has been concluded, successfully or otherwise.

On the diatribe regarding the ticketing practices in Italy that is something that happened in recent decades. It was the opposite in the 1980’s when I lived here and fines were rare.

What changed matters was the new technologies and the invention of camera systems like Autovelox, Speed Tutor, and ZTL cameras. Local jurisdictions have become addicted to that revenue stream and they have installed thousands since the 1990s. I read an article a few years ago that stated there were almost 40.000 speed cameras throughout Italy.

There are 3 speed machines in Florence (Viale Marco Polo, Viale XI Agosto, Viale Etruria) that collect millions of euro a year for the city of Florence. Incidentally they are at the freeway exits on 4 lane divided boulevards that could easily have speed limits of 90km/h and instead it is not higher than 60km/h. Therefore on roads where the potential for revenue is high since they induce to driving above the posted 50 or 60km/h speed.

Even the former mayor of Florence and former Prime Minister Matteo Renzi recently criticized the current mayor (Nardella) for using camera machines as ATMs. It was a public argument between the two politicians to which Nardella responded that safety and preservation of human life is at the heart of what he does (typical politician’s BS since I bet there are no studies about the impact on incidents in those 3 locations).

What I don’t agree with some posters here is that those measures are meant to target Americans or foreign tourists in general. They don’t. They target everybody and they affect Italians much more than foreign visitors. My relatives received several tickets over the years. It is true that Italians know the locations of cameras near home or in the routes they drive often, but they get snapped just as easily when they drive in other areas. And sometimes they get fines near home too because it’s very easy to get distracted and go above the soles limit by 5 km (3 miles) and those machines are merciless.

Thank you Roberto, very helpful info.