Feeling Disheartened, Stick to the Plan or Start Over?

How much time do you have?

By Sept the summer crowds will have abated, but there is never going to be a time of your being the only tourist there.

If you fear the Jubilee crowds are going to be 'too much', then put Italy out into the farther future.

These are purely in the "thoughts to help you work through it" category:
You have to trust your gut, and I find it really sad that you are not excited about your trip and it has barely even begun to be planned yet. While I would personally really like to experience Venice, my husband is even more put off by crowds than I am and is convinced he will hate it. I am still working on that, but I'll get there one day with or without him. There are so many places to see, so even though Italy is really exceptional in so many ways, it would also not be the end of the world if you flipped to something different.
Then again, the main sights in the big three are never going to not be crowded. I get around this easily, as I have gone to Italy eight times and not set foot in the big three. If you really have your heart set on experiencing Rome in a non-Jubilee year, then maybe you should save it but keep the rest. It would not be difficult in any way to fill those days.

As has been pointed out, the big 3 tourist cities in Italy are always crowded; it's just a matter of degree. If crowds bother you that much, then perhaps those cities aren't for you- at least not in high season which now is from April through October. If you are willing to put up with some crowds, and can plan around them with timed tickets, then pushing back to later in October might help. Perhaps leave out Rome for a future trip.. A mid winter trip would certainly see lighter crowds, but you would also have the likelihood of cold, possibly wet weather and short daylight hours. And of course you wouldn't want to be in Lake Como in the winter.

By Sept the summer crowds will have abated, but there is never going to be a time of your being the only tourist there.

I certainly wouldn't expect that anywhere or anytime.

We would be there for just over two weeks.

As has been pointed out, the big 3 tourist cities in Italy are always crowded; it's just a matter of degree. If crowds bother you that much, then perhaps those cities aren't for you- at least not in high season which now is from April through October. If you are willing to put up with some crowds, and can plan around them with timed tickets, then pushing back to later in October might help. Perhaps leave out Rome for a future trip.. A mid winter trip would certainly see lighter crowds, but you would also have the likelihood of cold, possibly wet weather and short daylight hours. And of course you wouldn't want to be in Lake Como in the winter.

The crowd level in London did not bother me at all other than the day at Westminster Abbey. I get the impression that the big 3 in Italy are more crowded than London, would you say that is true?

For Venice, we planned on staying in one of the neighborhoods away from the main area, we have no major sites there we want to see, just the chance to see and experience Venice.

Would October still allow us to enjoy Lake Como?

I was there at the start of October '24 and while there were plenty of people out and about I didn't feel like it was wall to wall people jostling each other on crowded sidewalks. YMMV.

My first reaction to reading your post is to encourage you to go on and go, because you never know what the future will bring. In early 2018, I was about 3 years away from retiring and trying to decide whether to go to Italy for the second time then or wait until I retired. Well, I decided to go and am so glad I did because Covid happened a year or so before I retired. So many times I said to myself and others that I was SO glad I went when I did.
I understand your concern about crowds though, and perhaps the suggestions that others gave to concentrate on smaller cities would help you and your family to decide to go to Italy and maybe save Rome for another trip. Even though the planning isn’t as fun for you right now, I truly believe you will enjoy enough of Italy to make it worth the trip. Good luck!

I stayed in Varenna 3 nights this past mid-October and it was not at all crowded. Rainy weather part of the time may have worked in my favor. I encountered good numbers of tourists but not anything I would call over crowding (or even dense crowding) in Milan, Ortisei, Padua, Bologna, Ravenna and Parma. Late September and into October may be better for you. Bologna and Ravenna from your original list should be ok. I hope some other people will have suggestions for you for navigating crowds in Florence and Venice.

I was also really concerned about crowd reports in Rome prior to our trip in May 2024. Even without Jubilee visitors it sounded awful. However , I am happy to report that I absolutely LOVED our 6 days in Rome!!!!! Here are some strategies that worked for us:
Many mornings we got up and out super early. We visited the Trevi Fountain at 7:00 a.m, then returned to our hotel for breakfast. For the majority of our walk between campo de Fiori, where we stayed, and Trevi Fountain, we had the streets of Rome to ourselves. Some shops were getting deliveries, a few locals were already at work, but that was it. It was magical! We didn’t escape crowds at Trevi Fountain, but there were fewer than 100 people there and it was easy to see the fountain and get right up close to toss in a coin.
We scheduled the first visit of the day to the Pantheon, and got there at 8:30 for the 9:00 opening. Only a handful of people were there. We were among the first dozen people who walked into the building. Another magical moment. Even when we left it was still not crazy crowded.
We had a fantastic private guide at the Borghese Gallery. After our tour we walked across the grounds with her, and she suggested we walk all the way back via the Spanish Steps. Again, the majority of the time we were walking things weren’t crowded at all — only the area immediately around the steps was crowded, and as luck would have it just as we arrived it started to rain quite hard and suddenly we were the only ones there! The rain let up after about 10 minutes.
We spent one morning on the Eating Europe Taste of Testaccio food tour. It was a fantastic tour and Testaccio is not at all crowded. After the tour we visited the Protestant Cemetery to see John Keats grave, then walked back to central Rome via the Orange Grove and Rose Garden— no crowds in sight.
We walked from Campo de Fiori to Vatican City at 6:00 am. We chose a lovely route and once again had the city to ourselves. The line to get through security was quite long, but moved pretty quickly and we had no line at all to climb St Peter’s dome.
The colosseum was very very crowded. Palatine Hill was not crowded at all.
Timing and planning will help make Rome manageable. I can’t wait to return!

My recommendation is to leave out Rome and make the trip a northern Italy adventure. Or, you could substitute Tuscany for Rome.
When we go to Venice, we stay in Cannaregio area, and never see any crowds. I can take sunset pix without anyone in the frame. We rarely go near St Mark's Square , except to view from the vaporetto. We usually go to Murano, where we haven't found crowds.
So I'd say go, just modify the itinerary, so get excited and start planning!

”I’m not sure that I can enjoy the trip if it is massively crowded.”

Hi Maryellen, do you have a different country you would consider for 2025 if you don’t go to Italy? I have had itineraries I planned in the past, and they just didn’t click as I was working through them. As you mentioned, I just didn’t get excited as I was working on the specific details. One of them was Spain. I shelved the itinerary, and we went to Germany & Austria that year and had a great time. The following year, I brought out that Spain itinerary again, and that year it just seemed the right time & we enjoyed it so much. Maybe Italy in 2026?

Another alternative is to plan to not hit The Big 3, but for a first trip to Italy, that’s hard to give up.

I was in Rome a few times during the month of May, and it seemed like a zoo in the popular locations - much more than in 2022 and before! My taxi driver & I had a conversation about how bad the traffic is now in the center when he took me from Roma Termini (train station) to a boutique hotel near the Pantheon. The cities beyond Rome were much calmer.

Maybe give us some specific ideas of what you’re wanting to do and see in Italy without naming a city. I’ve stayed in almost 40 cities in Italy; there’s options. : )

Focus on northern Italy...consider October for a better shot at less crowding...September can be crowded and hot in Italy...October will still be crowded, but not as hot as September. November, maybe, for Rome?

I agree with October for less crowds, we almost always travel then for that reason, plus I dislike hot weather in Europe.

The problem with October in a place like Varenna though, is that hotels and restaurants shut down after the first week or two, and that is also the case with many smaller places.

We have been to Varenna and Bellagio twice, both times in the last few days of September. The last time was literally a couple of months ago. On the sunny days, Varenna was packed with day trippers, but we avoided them by hiring a boat one day, and visiting Bellano, a far less crowded day on the other. The other couple of days were drizzly and cloudy, and the upside of that was that the day trippers from Milan and Como weren't there. We were able to enjoy Varenna to ourselves, along with the others staying there, which was lovely.

Evenings were always perfectly uncrowded and very enjoyable.

We were in Rome in late October a few years ago, and I didn't find it any busier than London or Paris. Well known cities are always busy. I found Florence more crowded than both.

We stayed right near St. Marks in Venice, in early October. Again, we tried to visit the islands and get out of the main sites during the day. Evenings again were wonderful, we had St. Marks pretty much to ourselves and were able to sit and listen to the orchestras with no crowds whatsoever.

You never know what is around the corner, so my advise would be to push the trip back to late September, early October, and just plan around the crowds.

Try hard to enjoy the planning, to me it is half of the fun.

It's all about the expectations, I think. Been to Florence & Rome twice each on previous trips, but in October, and twice in late Feb/early March, partially because I'm anti-crowds & partially anti-heat. 2010, 2015, 2017. And even then, before any talk of a Jubilee 2025, there were pockets of crowds or...the bane of my existence...large walking tour groups, guide with a flag in the air, minions with selfie sticks, blocking the walkways. Argh...if only for a cattle prod, I'm thinking...

And I let it get to me once, in Florence. Could not wait to get the heck outta there. And I realized as soon as I left...I let them win.

Our upcoming early April trip has both Florence & Rome on the agenda, and we're staying right in the central districts. But I think I know what I'm in for. Pre-arranged tours, 'skip the line', cooking classes, restaurant reservations are going to be a big part of the plan. Pure spontaneity will have to wait for another trip at another time, I'm afraid.

Yes, absolutely, getting up super early and walking these beautiful but quasi-deserted neighborhoods goes a long way towards preserving sanity. Watching the vendors set up at Campo de' Fiori at 6AM, hearing their catcalls in the quiet morning air ricochet off the buildings, you absorb this sight & think 'This is why I've come...' And then I'll walk to a nearby cafe for a quick espresso. Then maybe to Forno Bakery for some pastries before it gets crazy busy.

I'm traditionally a wanderer, knowing the rabbit warren streets by heart through research & past experience, and now I'll have Google GPS to back me up--can't wait. Dammit, it's going to be harder to get lost! And once the rest of my party gets up and out & about, I can watch them freak at the crowds while I say...should-a got up early...

Our itinerary also has Salerno then Taormina, Sicily on the docket, and I think as long as I avoid public transportation on the Amalfi Coast, I'll be fine. But to avoid Italy altogether? No way, can't let them win...

Plan correctly, and enjoy!

The future is not guaranteed. Whose to say Rome won’t be more crowded the following year. I’ve been on this forum long enough to know, Rome always seems crowded (although haven’t yet been myself). If you want to see it, Go!
Btw, I share your thoughts on Westminster Abbey. We were there last year. It was crazy crowded, but still glad I braved the crowds and saw it.

Italy, Italy, Italy, on and On. Italy is a major player for discussion. By those numbers you can see why crowds in Italy are what they are. Yet, there are so many other
countries that are out there to see and maybe without such crowds. You should cast your net wider and perhaps your enthusiasm will uptick.
I would not put off A trip and waste a year, but go forth into a different place.
Italy is good, but come on, it is not the end all and be all out there.

One thing to keep in mind is the bulk of the increased tourist crowds are big tour groups and cruise ships, both sectors that have exploded in recent years. They don’t travel like you do, or when you do. You have much more flexibility as independent travelers, and you’ll need to take advantage of that. Many sights and museums have discovered that timed entry is a really good deal for them, and a massive advantage for you. You can get tickets for everything ahead online now. Yet, somehow you’ll still pass by a massive queue of people waiting to buy tickets. In short, they’re “bad travelers.”

Of course, there’s no avoiding a collision at a place like the Vatican or Colosseum. This is when it’s worth evaluating whether to brave that situation. Imo, you may have to make a hard decision to skip something like that in favor of something else (and I’ll contend that the inside of the Colosseum is not worth it anyways.) But if you get up early or go very late, you’ll usually miss the big groups. They’re already on a bus headed to whatever far off hotel, ship, or shopping excursion. And there’s no shortage of options, both in the big cities of just outside of them. If you find Venice to be impossibly mobbed in the middle of the day (it usually is) it can be as simple as heading to another island for a couple hours. The evenings are always much better, because again, those crowds aren’t staying in Venice. Suddenly, you’ll find yourself on the Rialto bridge at sunset with barely a soul on the canal.

Bad crowds don’t make travel impossible, they just make it different. Use your travel skills, be prepared, disciplined, and flexible. Stay in a good location, splurge even, so you have an easy out to take a break and stay close to your sightseeing objectives. Get all your work done early and late, enjoy a long midday lunch and watch the crowds shuffle past.

I'd been to Italy several times, but never to Florence and Venice until 15-29 March 2023. We did a 2 week trip, 6 nights in Florence (missed our first night in Florence due to cancelled flight but we were compensated and it all worked out), concentrating on museums and palaces and churches that are considered the most popular, figuring we would be there at a less crowded time. The only real crowds were on the street in front of the Academia waiting for our timed entry reservation (11:30 reservation, negotiating the crowds to find the right line was crazy but it was warm and sunny) once in side, the crowd wasn't so bad. Still though we made reservations at some restaurants 1-3 days ahead and other places we waited to be seated. 3 nights in Venice - we didn't have anything specific pre-planned, mostly wandered the streets, visited the cathedral but not the Palace, and made it to Murano one morning. It was wonderful, some crowds in spots but as others have said, away from the Realto and St. Mark's square, it's enchanting. Then 4 nights in Rome, we'd been there before, and didn't have a lot on the agenda so we did some RS audio walking tours, and wandered around, with one food tour of Testachio that was great. Again near the most popular areas, neighborhoods the crowds were plenty especially for late March, but it was easy to get away from it. The places you have to book, book early enough so that you can get the first morning slots, then enjoy a slower pace the rest of the day.
I guess my point is, if you can go as late in September as possible, or maybe into October, you will find places that aren't mobbed, even in the big 3, but you'll never find those places empty even in offseason (March).

We have been in Italy for 1-3 weeks in each of the past three Septembers (2022, 2023, and this year). We went to the Dolomites, the Lakes (Garda and Maggiore), and northern cities such as Venice, Ferrara, and Bologna. The only place we were annoyed by crowds was on packed cablecars in the Dolomites.

We also went to Rome and Puglia in winter 2023 (February to early March) and that was delightful. But I would never go there in summer, Jubilee or not.

The Jubilee will bring increased numbers of people to Rome, and some will travel elsewhere, but they may not go very far. And I do not foresee the “post-covid tourism boom” letting up anytime soon, so you might as well go in 2025. We ourselves are returning to Italy next July, but will just visit the Dolomites, plus a few days in Switzerland.

My suggestion to you is, “Don’t give up on Italy, but do skip Rome”. And probably Florence as well. Save Rome for a winter or early spring trip, and I highly recommend combining it with Puglia.

For this trip, focus on the north: Venice, Bologna, Lago di Como, Lago Maggiore, Bergamo. Parma, Verona, Ravenna—not all, of course, but there is lots to choose from. Our experience this past September with the lakes in particular was that the crowds were indeed reduced by the last week (but definitely not gone). Everything was fully open— although the lake boats changed to a reduced schedule after October 6.

I believe that once you start planning and looking particular cities and hotels, the joy of planning will come back to you.

Thank you all so very much. All of these replies have given me a lot to think on, and I will be sharing your thoughts with the others in our family.
I'm now feeling like we will still go to Italy, although we will have a conversation about where we want to focus our time.

I truly appreciate all of the thoughtful responses you have given me, it has really helped.

...wanting to just enjoy the area, the food, and not spend all our time in museums.

Conventional wisdom in the past has been to stay in the big places and day trip to the smaller sights. Why not consider doing the opposite. Stay in some smaller places and day trip into Rome or Florence to see specific things, and then get the heck out and leave the crowds. Of course, one really has to stay in Venice to maximize the pleasures of a really unique city.

Since the daughters have been to some of the "biggies", perhaps they would be open to the idea of staying in some of the out of the way places. You mentioned Varenna, but have you considered Verona as a base for a few days. There are lots of others. Just offering food for thought.

Lots of great advice about getting out early to see sites. I would also recommend seeing places closer to the end of the day. It would seem like going late would give you less time, but we did The Vatican, the Sistine Chapel and St. Peter’s Basilica at the end of the day and flew through as we were behind the crowds. It gave us a chance to really see and appreciate as opposed to being worried about being crushed. We were traveling in May which is traditionally a busy time. Venice was also wonderful early and late as the day trippers had gone home. Florence was the only place we never saw a significant change in crowds, but we were there over a weekend.

Well, I hate to say it but, there's no guarantee that future years (2026, 2027, etc) are going to be any less crowded in Rome than next year. Personally, if I had already planned a trip there to include Rome I wouldn't change it just because of the jubilee. Just research the best way to avoid the crowds and hope for the best.

The "Bologna corridor" from Ravenna and Rimini northwest through Bologna to Modena, Parma and Piacenza might be a great way to spend time in a less tourist-saturated region (Emilia-Romagna) that still has a wide variety of attractions, cultural, culinary and scenic. We loved the region. And Umbria remains underappreciated but delightful.

There's so much of Italy to enjoy outside of the major tourist cities. Please don't miss it.

My church is organizing a trip to Rome (with possible side trip to Assisi) for next year. This is not something they generally do.

I can't imagine that Rome won't be more crowded than its usual crowded self.

Greetings! We just returned from 19 days in Italy - 14 with RS tour & 5 on our own. We have been to Italy in May, September, & now October-November. I totally understand your hesitancy & concern of the crowds. Regarding your dates, find an Italian “church” calendar & try to avoid big cities in those dates. We had no desire to do Rome so I can’t give much info about that.

However for our first trip, we flew into Bologna & immediately boarded the train for the Adriatic/Marche region. Based in Pesaro for 4 days & then headed to Florence. I was SO glad that our first real intro to Italy was viewing it from a train ride & then staying in a small town, away from crowds but still was Italy. Pesaro is a lovely town on the Adriatic coast - is probably crowded in summer but we were there in late September. Our second trip to Italy was via train ride through the Alps with a base camp in Verona. Verona is a beautiful small city & easy train ride to Venice. That would be my other suggestion - mix up your itinerary with a combo of “busy” places with other smaller locales. Bologna is a BIG foodie town but we had great meals & better sights in Parma & Verona & Orvieto.

I agree with others - you should go! During your time in the touristy places, Rome, Florence & Venice - get out early & avoid the crowds. Come back to your hotel or find an off-beat quiet place during the peak times. & then back out from 7-10. Both Venice & Florence are especially lovely in the evenings. Some of my best visual memories are of Venice & Florence as the sun is setting! You are in Italy - how great is that! Happy traveling!

Just returned on Sunday from 12 day trip to Italy. I have to get my trip report up as a way to "pay it forward" to so many of you who helped me plan our trip. We landed in Rome and took train to Assisi for 4 days (LOVED it) and then took train Sunday back to Rome where we stayed on Vatican side of Tibre for a week. I am not a city girl and don't like crowds. I LOVED Rome. We got so lucky w/ the weather and it was not crowded. There definitely was construction for the upcoming Jubilee, but it didn't bother us. We took busses or walked (averaged 7 miles per day which helped with all the pasta, pizza, bread, gelato, wine and dessert we enjoyed). Anyway, as someone above mentioned, we got up early to go to sites. We had 8am semi private tour of Colosseum, early church tours etc. and it did not feel crowded to me.

Taking your stated desires seriously ("We are wanting to just enjoy the area, the food, and not spend all our time in museums. (not giving up seeing the David in Florence though"), I have some thoughts for you.

We've been in Florence for the the last four weeks with another week to go. We've stayed here before for 5 weeks in pre-pandemic 2017 (mostly September) and 10 days in late December 2014. The crowds in November have been manageable although quite a bit more than we were hoping for ---- we manage, as others have said, by staying outside of the hot spots (we are staying in San Frediano and love it), by getting out both early and late (at 8:15am yesterday at the Uffizi there were THREE people in front of Botticelli's Venus), and by being very strategic about taking buses, when to eat meals, and not exhausting ourselves trying to do it all. Go see David at 5:30pm, for instance. Don't see things you are not passionate about seeing just because they are famous --- I skipped many, many rooms in the Uffizi (I had downloaded, printed, and marked up a map from the Uffizi website).

Outdoor crowds are kind of fun, really, as long as it's not hot. I gotta say, every single time we have been in Italy in September it has been beastly hot, so please seriously consider November or December instead.

If I were you, I would fly into Venice and stay as long as you can, move to a town in either the Veneto like Padua (our favorite) or Emilia-Romagna (Bologna or, for a smaller place, Modena or Ferrara or any town along that railway line). Take daytrips by train. I'd skip Como, but that's me. Then go to Florence. Fly out of Florence. Visit Rome on another trip when you can really give it the love it deserves. Spend less time lugging your luggage from place to place. Rent an apartment. You want to ENJOY this time with your family.

TC had a great recommendation of staying in a smaller city and maybe day trip in. Orvieto is a lovely town, easy to get to Rome by train. We were in Rome in October and it was the most second most miserable time we have ever had there. Been many many times. The most miserable was being there in August in the hot and humid unbearable heat along with the crowds. October was just as crowded. Sidewalks, cafes, sights were very very crowded. Having been to the Vatican before, we reluctantly went again because we had a friend who had never been to Italy or overseas and felt our obligation that they see it. While the idea of visiting Vatican is lovely, we were three of many sardines packed in overcrowded hallways, stairwells, etc. It was like breathing everyone else's air and was completely overwhelming. We went when doors opened for the early tour as well. If it's on your must do list, then do it. But absolutely expect crowds in Rome. You can actually see a lot in a day if you plan it right. Many suggested Northern Italy. Our first trip to Italy that is exactly what we did. Venice, Florence, Verona and in to Tuscany. You haven't mentioned some of the wonderful hill towns. Cortona is an easy train ride from Florence, and from Cortona, another easy trip to Assisi. Also from Cortona you can easily get to Orvieto and day trip to Lucca and Pisa or Siena from Florence. Florence is a wonderful city. Don't postpone Italy. There are so many wonderful places to visit and just know you can't do it all in one trip. How long do you have to visit?

hey hey maryellen
just a fellow poster here to give more than my 2 cents, maybe 3 cents
don't know the ages of your daughters and boyfriend, your budget, what sleeping arrangements you're planning. i would look for an apartment that fits all of (# of beds-what size, make sure 2 bathrooms, really don't want sofa bed, they're small, a washer/dryer so you pack light, any mobility if any stairs up, look for a portable clothes line with pins or buy them and hang in room overnight while on day trip. we would bring liquid laundry soap and wash in sink and lay around where there's room. nobody cares if you wear same shirt or pants to be a tourist. stay 5-6 days to enjoy lots to do
just know that check in is 2-3pm and check out is 10-11am unless you get early approval.
look at lucca. train or bus there from florence (1 hour+ on bus or 1 hour half on train)
tripsavvy/lucca
lucca italy guide: planning your trip
booking.com com
look under apartments/houses
apartmentslucca.com
look at what can accomodate your gang, inside walls no cars, outside the walls is cars. check where it's at and if transportation. best to stay in city center or close by to roam around
lots of things to see and do:
thecrazytourist.com/15 best things to do in lucca
rent a bike and ride around the walls (self guided or tour) stop at tourists kiosk to see what id offered along with other activities.
touristcenter lucca.com check the tours
take a bus or taxi to leaning tower or the small town of pisa for lunch (opapisa.it switch to english)
extravirginlucca.com
cooking class in lucca
cucina-italiana.com
half day cooking classes and accomodations
frattoriaaldotto.it
winery and tasting a bus or taxi ride near lucca center
pinocchio.it
in the village of collodi, home to pinocchio, garzoni villa gardens and the butterfly house. bus, train or taxi. we took the taxi quite a bit to get us front door to front door and shared cost for shorter trip
visitpistoia.eu small village near lucca or florence, take a train or bus. walk the historic center with cafes, bakeries, restaurants, market stalls. enjoy the comfort of someplace not crowded and a different look and places in tuscany that people don't check out. if you read most of the posts many people are all going to the same places that makes it crowded. trying to keep you away from the craziness.
few years back we did siena and san gimignano, never again. so so crowded, people so rude and nasty, pushy, all in a hurry since limited time on tours, had about 10 big buses, 8 12 seater vans, personal cars. couldn't even walk down alleyway to look at shops with lines out door to pay and 1 or 2 workers. gelato shop had line around the building into backyard and so many frustrated people.
years ago tried to go to vatican, line was so so so long, moved like 5 feet in 2 hours!!! told my friend no way, i'm outta here. walked to a beautiful church (santa maria maggiore?) lit candles for family, walked out and the priest dressed in his white robe and purple sash standing right there. asked if i can have a picture of him, he kissed my forehead blessed me and my friend took picture. he was my "personal pope" for the 5 days i was in rome, no crowds (read their expecting 30 million people for jubilee 2025) that's a BIG message to stay away.
i'll send some more info about things in florence, venice to do. i really would look at lake garda for a great time on the lake. lake como has low inventory and expensive with many many people going for couple days or day trippers. look at your dates in september/october
dolcevia.com
bardolino wine festival september 27- october 5, 2025. we went a few years ago, stayed at hotel netunno right on lake and walked pathway to festival. it was eat, drink, & be merry. so much fun, great food, music, dancing, mash grapes in barrels, parade, fireworks on last night (sunday). paid 15-20E for wine necklace to taste local bardolino wines.
aloha

Don’t know your circumstances, but if you can visit Rome in November you probably will be happier. It’s our favorite month in Rome and we’ve been there almost every year since 2011. Yes it’s more crowded than ever. That’s how things are and we find a way to work around it.

If you are interested in food - there are fabulous restaurants to enjoy leisurely meals. Just make reservations and go late so you are eating with locals. We always visit Colline Emiliene for a 9 pm dinner and walk to Trevi Fountain at midnight. Still busy but nothing like the daytime. Wander past the Colosseum late at night for a magnificent sight. Go to museums like Doria Pamphilj and Palazzo Colonna for less crowds but wonderful art. See what exhibits are on at Scuderie del Quirinale. We saw wonderful Picasso exhibit one year and fabulous Da Vinci one another time. Go to Villa Farnese for an exhibit. We had a great time one year when they had a Raphael exhibit. Visit churches to see Caravaggio and Michelangelo and Bernini and Raphael. We never pass a church without going in. Some of our most happy moments in Rome. The Capitoline Museum is wonderful. Walk in the Borghese Gardens. Sign up for a virtual self tour at Baths of Caracalla. Have aperitivo at the many lovely wine and cocktail bars. Visit a jazz club. You can sign up for a special time to visit Borghese Gallery and the Pantheon. Rome is so much more than the Vatican but if you are a lover of religious art and really want to visit then go — just understand it’s going to be crowded. If you can afford a before museum opens tour, do that. But walk outside the main tourist areas and you will be met with beautiful sites and have room to breathe. Manage your own expectations and read about all that’s available to you. You may find places you can visit and still have some space to enjoy. If I had one real recommendation it would be not to rush Rome. Dont run from one of the most crowded tourist sites to another. Give yourself time and space to wander, get lost, walk in early mornings and late in the evenings and see what happens.

We were in Florence for a week this past summer, and yes, the main streets were ridiculously crowded: shoulder to shoulder, no way to make your way through.

But we quickly found that if you get even one block - ONE BLOCK - off the main drag, you may well have the street or alleyway to yourself. It made a big difference, and we ended up having a wonderful time.

Ditto Venice; our hotel was on a a quiet street near a vaporetto stop. Other than the one time we had to cross the Rialto Bridge, we encountered no crowds. The one time we went to St Mark's Square, we went in the early evening, and pretty much had it to ourselves.

So go, but think about your options once you get there. Every city has back streets; every museum has early or late hours that are less crowded.

You are already traveling with a large group of people, so I think it will be tricky for you to go to Rome and enjoy it in 2025. You already shared that being in a more crowded Westminster ruined it for you, so why try and force it? Enjoy other things in Italy instead.

Sounds like a wonderful trip!

If you have everyone available for a time slot this year, I would go for some version of Italy. You never know who could have an illness, injury, job change, etc. in the future.

In terms of Rome, we loved it and it would be a shame to miss it since you are so close. But what type of travelers are you?
I think if you like to sleep in and have a leisurely breakfast, these major cities could be challenging. I think to enjoy it you need to be organized and do a lot of research so there are not a lot of " I don't know, what do you want do" moments. Also with 5, make reservations for dinner, that you can always cancel. You have a LOT of good advice here, getting an early start, taking a break, and finding escapes during the day are important. I like the idea of visiting major sites after a lot of the tour buses leave.

We found Florence the worst for crowds on our trip in early October 2023, I would recommend staying in Oltrarno, more peaceful and an easy walk across the bridge. We stayed in Varenna and loved it.

If this trip is too much city energy, I would say Rome would be the one to drop. We loved Tuscany, especially. the Val D'Orcia, gorgeous! If you do go, hire a private driver, or rent a car, there are so many gorgeous vistas and peaceful settings. I would stay a few nights in the area and not day trip it. Enjoy!

In terms of Rome, we loved it and it would be a shame to miss it since you are so close. But what type of travelers are you?
I think if you like to sleep in and have a leisurely breakfast, these major cities could be challenging. I think to enjoy it you need to be organized and do a lot of research so there are not a lot of " I don't know, what do you want do" moments. Also with 5, make reservations for dinner, that you can always cancel. You have a LOT of good advice here, getting an early start, taking a break, and finding escapes during the day are important. I like the idea of visiting major sites after a lot of the tour buses leave.

We are the plan ahead type of travelers. For Rome we will definitely plan early or late entry to the few major sites that we want to visit. Since 2 of the 5 of us have been there before, we will let them take us to favorite out of the way places. We plan on seeing the Colosseum and Forum one day, with the rest of the day being dedicated to wandering and eating. On the next day we plan on St. Peter's Basilica and the Sistine Chapel. I'm wondering if that one would be best done later in the day?

Thanks for your input!

Thank you again for all the help.

We have decided to go to Italy as planned, beginning with 2 days in Rome, planning the more popular sites for early or late entry.
I will definitely look into some of the quieter neighborhoods some of you suggested for Florence and Venice.

Happy travels--your perspective will be helpful when the reports come flowing in next year!

You already have much good advice, here. The time you have available will make a world of difference. 10 days will be rushed. 3 weeks will give you time to enjoy. Just over two weeks still could be a bit tight to really enjoy. Maybe your daughters only get two weeks of vacation, but you and your husband can take three weeks?

To help you find some spirit for your planning and enrich your visit, perhaps read The Agony and the Ecstacy, the great novel about Michelangelo set in Florence and Rome during the lifetimes of Lorenzo de Medici and Pope Julius II, both of whom played such large roles in Michelangelo’s life. Or watch TV series such as Medici the Magnificient or Borgia, both of which were on Netflix and might be available as DVDs from your public library.

If Ancient Rome is of interest, perhaps Robert Harris’ Imperium about Cicero the great lawyer and Senator during the Republic (before Caesar) or Harris’ other novels set in Rome - or his novel Pompeii will spark your imagination.

Your trip sounds good overall, but as you know it takes in the most highly visited cities and sights, particularly Rome, Florence, Venice and Lake Como’s Varenna. Others above have suggested smaller cities which may well be less crowded.

And so, consider smaller and potentially less crowded cities or towns such as Orvieto, Perugia, Volterra, Ravenna, Padua (Padova), Parma, Modena, Verona. I’ve been to about half of these, as well as other smaller cities that are more “on” the tourist map but still less crowded, Pisa, Lucca, Siena and San Gimignano. Many of these are less crowded in the eves, after the day trippers depart. They will offer other gems (as well as relief from the crowds); great frescoes in churches, Etruscan ruins, alabaster art works, art by other masters of the early Renaissance or late Middle Ages (Pisano, Giotto), beautiful countryside, fine dining and always gelato. Apart from Lake Como, there are Lakes Garda, Lugano and Maggiore.

The smaller cities may give you an opportunity to take a vacation from your vacation.

If you have 3 weeks, you can spend 4 nights in Rome, 4 in Florence and 3 in Venice and still have 9 or 10 nights for smaller cities and less crowded sights.

Buon Viagge.

On the next day we plan on St. Peter's Basilica and the Sistine
Chapel. I'm wondering if that one would be best done later in the day?

Mary Ellen--

We'll be in Rome in April, 2 weeks before Easter. Yikes. Originally in the context of our overall trip (Florence, Rome, Salerno, Sicily) it was going to be during Holy Week, but I re-jiggered things around to save my sanity.

What we did for Vatican Museum/Sistine/St. Peter's--even though we've been there before, but now we're with cousins who haven't been--is to hire The Tour Guy for a 3-hour tour at 9:00 AM one day. I hate lines, and I suspect that even in late September you'll be subject to them. So we're doing it, have already reserved, at $117/per--and supposedly having direct access from Vatican Museum to St. Peter's with no lines at any time--I'm thinking it's well worth it, even though it's probably the Cliff's Notes version. But when we were there before--on our own--it was 6 hours at St. Peter's, we had only gone through about 70%, and had to leave because it was total sensory overload. So this might be better from a perspective standpoint anyway.

There are plenty of off the beaten path things, theoretically less-traveled: Villa Torlonia (wartime home of Mussolini), up on Via Nomentana a bus ride north of Termini station, also nearby are St. Agnese & St. Constanzia--home of wonderful 3rd Century mosaic; The Baths of Diocletian & Roman Museum, directly across from Termini. All fantastic, and none of these attractions are on guided tours.

I could go on for days...enjoy your planning!

Your 2 days in Rome sounds really rushed to me. I am still in the camp advising skipping Rome for this trip, focus on northern Italy where you have expressed interest in far more destinations. If you intended to stay "south" for more than a couple of days, my recommendation might be different...

Regardless, good luck.

The Sistine Chapel is part of the Vatican Museums; you can't just pop into the Sistine Chapel. That means:

• If you don't want to take a tour, you must pre-purchase a timed ticket for the Vatican Museums; those sell out far ahead of time.
• You'll have to line up for entry, but with luck won't have too long a wait (the ticket-buying line is awful).
• You'll have to line up to swap your ticket voucher for an actual ticket before you can actually enter the Museums.
• The Museums will still be crowded in the afternoon--maybe a bit better very late in the afternoon, but the Museums are huge. If you want to see anything other than the Sistine Chapel, you need a good bit of time there.
• You will in any event have a long walk through the Museums to get to the Sistine Chapel.
• Unless you take a combination Vatican Museums/St. Peter's tour, you will have a long walk out of the Museums and then around the outside of the building to get to St. Peter's.

There is no way to avoid the security line at St. Peter's unless you're on a combination Vatican Museums/St. Peter's tour. The security line is long. I took one look at it between 4 PM and 4:30 PM in March 2023 and said, "No way." I'm assuming it takes quite a long time to see the interior of St. Peter's; it is huge.

I really don't think you're going to have a lot of extra time for enjoying less-busy parts of Rome if you have only two days and want to see the Colosseum, Forum, Vatican Museums and St. Peter's.

Nancys8, what did you like about Padova? We are thinking of Padova as home base for a few days with day-train trips to Vicenza è Verona. Sent you private message.
Ciao.

SuperTuscan-

This is a 4 month old thread about maryellen's concerns- not really about Padova.

If you have questions about Padova start a new thread with your own subject line.
(we enjoyed 3 nights in Padova- FWIW!)

Rather than put this on a trip report, let me give my impression on crowds recently in Florence (April 2-6) and Rome (April 6-10). FYI...we just spent 3 nights in Salerno--wonderful--and are headed to Taormina, Sicily via train this morning.

FLORENCE: stayed on Via Tornabuoni in the shopping district. Crowded, pretty much all the time. Windows open, young drunk people carrying on until 2-3AM most nights. Tons of Americans, a lot of study abroad students with their parents. Walking around, more English spoken than Italian at times. Across the Arno for dinner? Still packed, but on smaller streets. Best part was getting out of Dodge one day for a pasta-making class at a winery in Chianti. Gorgeous. Made the rest of it tolerable.

Now...I knew what I was getting into here. Avoided crowds when I could and enjoyed the rest. Cuisine was stellar as expected. It was my 3rd time in Florence and probably my last.

ROMA: Parts of our stay bordered on human gridlock, especially by the Vittorio Emmanuele monument and the construction. Incredible. Also we did a Vatican tour that I definitely won't do again. Sardine-like. On the other hand, spontaneously signed up for an afternoon HopOnHopOff bus on a nice sunny day, sat up top for two circles and totally enjoyed ourselves for 19€ apiece, bypassing the human traffic.

But Rome is still my favorite city. Not as concentrated as Florence, one definitely can find places off the beaten path to savor and enjoy. We stayed at Campo de' Fiori...yes, busy...but in the morning I could nip on down to my bakery and fruit vendor for stuff for the day. And I found Trattoria de Teo in Trastevere that we had about a 3-hour lunch on the patio in the sun & quiet, chatting with the owner who kept bringing more dishes out...I was in a food and wine coma and I literally did not want to leave.

I'll come back to Roma as long as I can walk.

We just returned from the Venice- Florence- Rome tour. We scheduled a Vatican tour separate from our itinerary and regret it. Rick is not including the Vatican in the itinerary for good reason this year. The crowds were so heavy it ruined the time we were there. If you really want to see the Vatican and the Sistine Chapel go when it is not a jubilee year. Rome was crowded and busy but not overwhelming and we went early in the day to the coliseum and forum before the crowds got really big. We enjoyed the itinerary as planned- just not St Peter’s basilica/ Vatican museum and Sistine Chapel. Happy travels!

I can't help you out at all with the Italy question, but as to London.... If you ever get the chance to go back there, this past January we booked a private tour of Westminster.. It was fabulous... I recommend it to anyone... We were a group of 10 maybe, the guide was fantastic and the only other people there were people who worked there in one capacity or another.. I believe it ran for 1.5-2 hours. I got the most beautiful pictures, it was after Christmas and the decorations were still up. Highly recommend that tour. Highlight of my trip...