Family's first trip to Italy. itinerary help

My first thought is that you should steal night from Tuscany and spend 3 nights in Venice. You'll be getting over jetlag and the extra night means a chance to better experience this wonderful city. Great apartments to be had. Try VRBO.com or Cross-Pollinate.com (the latter for Venice, Florence and Rome only).

Why not stay in Firenze? So much to see and do there! Maybe 3 nights Lucca and 3 Firenze? No car needed in Firenze. So you can take the train from Venice to Lucca, rent your car if needed, then drop it in Firenze when you arrive. (You can visit Siena via public transportation while in Firenze, although I doubt you'll really have time.) Also no car to Rome. Take the train in, although you should be able to drop a car in Orvieto.

As you can see, two weeks goes quickly when planning an itinerary in Italy. If you can squeeze out one or two more nights, add one to Firenze and one to Rome. Time well spent.

We loved this apartment in Lucca:

http://www.casaolivieri.it/location.html

It inside the walls and quite close to the TI where you rent bikes. You can see good photoson booking.com but book directly with Paola. It has three bedrooms, a huge master bedroom (huge for Italy), a nice bedroom with two twins, and a small one with one twin--and the washing machine! Kitchen is well-equipped. The living/dining room is mostly occupied by the large table. It is fun shopping nearby to cook.

If you can keep the car and turn it in when you get to Siena, there's the little town of Monteriggione on the way. It's a picturesque, small city with still more walls to climb. Orvieto is an excellent choice, you can climb down the well of San Patrizio.

Todi is a beautiful medieval town (in Umbria), best with a car, parking at the city wall and public transportation into the city. Pienza is beautiful, too. I like Arezzo and Sansepolcro as well. You could visit some towns in Umbria from a base in Siena (get an apartment just outside the city walls to avoid ZTLs), Montalcino is small with a castle at the top of the town.

Between Tuscany and Umbria there are hundreds of beautiful towns to visit.

How about this modified itinerary?
Venice 3 nights

Florence 1 night

Lucca 3 nights

Siena 2 nights

Pienza 1 night

Rome 4 nights

This is a lot of moving, more than I'd have liked. But since from Venice to Lucca we have to change train any way, I thought we might as well stay the night instead of taking a day trip from Lucca.

Instead of staying in Siena 3 nights and visit Pienza and Montalcino area, does it make more sense to stay 2 nights in Siena, and 1 in Pienza or Montalcino or Montepulcino? That way we won't have to drive back to Siena and back down to Rome again.

What do you think? Thanks for the recommendation of Casa Olivieri. Will check it out.

Shirley,

To begin with, could you clarify whether your two week time frame includes your two flight days? Keep in mind that you'll arrive in Europe the day after you depart, and the last day will be spent on the flight home. If you only have 14 days, that only leaves 12 days for actual touring.

As always, I'd highly recommend packing along a copy of the Italy guidebook. The 2015 edition is available now, and can be purchased both in "hard copy" as well as E-book format.

Would something like this work for you.....

• D1 - Flight to Venice
• D2 / N1 - Arrive Venice, take Alilaguna to your hotel
• D3 / N2 - Venice, touring (you'll need some time to get up to speed so plan touring with adequate rest breaks, as you'll still be getting over jet lag).
• D4 / N1 - Train to Florence (about 2 hours - departure station Venezia Santa Lucia and arrival station Firenze SMN - depart about mid-morning so you'll have time for some touring after you check into your hotel).
• D5 / N2 - Florence, touring (if you plan on visiting the Uffizi or Accademia, reservations are highly advisable).
• D6 / N1 - Train to Lucca (about 1H:45M - I'd suggest a direct departure at 11:38 as that will be quicker than one with a change - departure station Firenze SMN, arrival station Lucca - that will be a Regionale train so DON'T forget to validate your tickets prior to boarding the train on the day of travel).
• D7 / N2 - Lucca, touring (I'm not sure that three days there will have enough to keep the teens entertained - once the bike riding is done, what do you plan to do?).
• D8 / N1 - Train to Siena (3H:07M, one change at Firenze Rifredi - the station in Siena is at the bottom of the hill, so you'll need to take a Taxi or Bus up to the town).
• D9 / N2 - Siena, touring (in the late afternoon, go to rental agency in Siena to pick up your rental car - while you could rent in Lucca, the parking in Siena could be costly, unless your hotel there provides parking).
• D10 / N3 - Siena, day trip to Pienza or other hill towns via car (I usually try to avoid one night stops, and you can easily visit Pienza from Siena so this might be more efficient).
• D11 / N1 - Leave early and drive to Orvieto or Chiusi and return rental car. Take train into Rome and start touring (departure station Orvieto or Chiusi - Chianciano Terme, arrival station Roma Termini).
• D12 / N2 - Rome, touring.
• D13 / N3 - Rome, touring
• D14 - Return flight to U.S. (Leonardo Express is the quickest way to get from Rome to FCO airport - cost is €14 PP - again this is a Regionale so DON'T forget to validate your tickets prior to boarding the train on the day of travel).

This is only one suggestion, based on the information you've posted so far. It's not necessary to pre-purchase rail tickets, although you may be able to save some money by pre-purchase of the tickets from Venice to Florence, using either Trenitalia or Italo trains. As those trains have compulsory reservations, you'll have to be willing to commit to a specific train, date and departure time. With Regionale tickets, there's no benefit with pre-purchase, and just as easy to buy those in Italy at the Kiosks or ticket offices.

Note that for driving in Italy, EACH driver will require the compulsory International Driver's Permit, which is used in conjunction with your home D.L. Also, you'll need to be very vigilant to avoid the ZTL (limited traffic) areas which exist in many towns and cities in Italy (hefty fines if you violate them).

I like your plan! Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to plan the details.

One of the reason we are staying at Lucca is to visit Pisa. Kids are planning to climb the tower. We may not have enough time if we only stay 2 nights? should we skip Lucca and visit Pisa from Florence?

Do you recommend staying inside Siena or outside? I am having a hard time finding hotels to fit all of us. Will it work if we stay in PIenza area instead of Siena? It's quite appealing to be out in the country instead of staying in towns all the time.

We are planning to stay in Rome for 4 nights. I guess that makes it 16 days. Would you add one more night to Venice, or is 2 nights enough?

Thanks again for you help! I have RS's guide, Rough Guide, and Frommer's Italy (all borrowed from library) on my desk at this moment. Too many guidebooks confuse me. : (

Shirley - There are also several towers to climb in Lucca. One of them even has a tree growing on top. The kids can also ride bikes around the top of the wall that surrounds the town of Lucca.

I adore Ken, but that itinerary has too many 2 night stays and too much moving about. If you are only going to Lucca to see Pisa, my thought is that you are devoting a large chunk of time and money to see one sight in one town in a country full of vastly more interesting options.

Your kids can go up the Campanile in Venice and/or one of the aforementioned towers in Lucca if you stay there. Have them climb the tower in Firenze. It's a knee killer although only one night in Firenze will leave you frustrated.

Venice - 3 nights/2 full days so you don't have to rush too much. If you get a good sunny day, take the vaporetto to the islands.

Siena - 4 nights/3 full days as a base to see northern Tuscany -- San Gimignano, Volterra, Monteriggioni (great idea Zoe!), and of course Siena itself and a day in Firenze if you like. Stay in an agristurismo outside of Siena so you have easy parking and get a car for when needed (except go to Firenze in a bus). Go to Pisa if you must from here. Alternately, stay in Firenze and take your daytrips...but a car is harder there.

Montalcino or Montelpulciano - 3 nights/2 full days. Drive between the two towns and stop in Pienza for lunch. Fabulous drive, great wine in these two towns.

Rome - 4 nights/3 full days. Drive to Orvieto on your way, drop the car, spend a couple of hours in Orvieto and then take th train to Rome. This gives you 3 days on the ground in Rome, enough to scratch the surface.

I know it is compelling to try to stop everywhere and "get a taste" of everything, but at the end of the trip, you will have changed locations so many times you will lose yourself in checking in and out, packing and unpacking, orienting and re-orienting yourselves. Each time you change location there is a huge loss in time as you try to figure out where you are going and actually go there. How easy are your kids to get out of bed in the mornings and get them moving? If they like to sleep until 10:00, then you relocate, you will lose more than half a day in each transition. Our kids were horrible to blast out of bed even on exciting vacations. If you get a late start, arriving at 4:00pm or 5:00pm in your new locations you won't get any touring done on a travel day, either.

I am going to disagree with Laurel (a first) about Pisa. If your kids want to go, go. Especially if this is their top priority or close to it. Seeing something through their eyes may leave you surprised, and your trip will proceed with happy kids rather than the possible alternative. While you are there, take them to the Camposanto (cemetary) on the grounds. Major damage done during WWII, psrtially restored; gravestones on the pavement include one of the American Monuments Men - good history lesson.

If you were a group of adults, I'd say skip it.

And by all means, let them climb towers and bike the walls in Lucca.

Zoe makes a great point as usual, I just want to recommend that any travelers consider how they spend their time as capital and the family should be aware that building a part of the itinerary around one thing in one town has a price. Do they deveote 8 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours to this one desire? That decision should be made thoughtfully as it means giving up something else. Like anything there are trade offs.

I haven't bee to Lucca, but I know that Pisa is an easy day (or 1/2 day) trip by train from Florence. Because of the tilt, climbing it is different from climbing other towers.

I would do:

3 Nights Venice- take vaporetto to Burano one day

2 Nights Florence- lots for teens to enjoy there other than the usual David and Uffizi- visit the Bargello, St. Croce for the tombs, Mercado Centale, Piazza Michelangelo for the view, Galileo Museum for a non-art museum

get car as you leave Florence
4 Nights in Agriturismo somewhere in Tuscany- day trips to Siena, Pienza, Montepulciano, Pisa, etc

4 Nights Rome

Decisions, decisions! I wish we can have more time in Italy.

Thank you all for taking the time to help me out. I know we will have to leave something out for this trip, but I want to see everything! Hopefully we will return to Italy again in the future. Now going back to the guidebook to make the tough decision. But why do they put in those sample itineraries that move so often and see so much?

Thank you again. Your advice helps tremendously.

Shirley,

Even with 16 days, you won't be able to see it all, so compromises will have to be made. In the sample Itinerary that I posted last night, I tried to eliminate the one-night stops. In order to keep all the places you wanted to see, I cut one night from Venice, although spending three nights there would be worthwhile to allow some recovery from jet lag.

Even with 16 days there are many possibilities and many variables. Here's another possibility you might consider (I left out the details, but those can be filled in later).....

• D1 - Flight to Venice
• D2 / N1 - Arrive Venice
• D3 / N2 - Venice, touring
• D4 / N3 - Venice, touring
• D5 / N1 - Train to Florence (mid-morning), touring
• D6 / N2 - Florence, touring
• D7 / N3 - Florence, day trip to Pisa to climb the tower or whatever (Pisa San Rossore station is closer to tower, but it's a smaller station so trains may not be as frequent - you can also go to Pisa Centrale and take the bus or walk to the tower - details in the guidebook).
• D8 / N4 - Florence, day trip to Lucca OR more touring around Florence. One other possibility you might consider is a day trip to the Cinque Terre. That will be a longer day with a couple of train changes each way, but it's a very unique area and one of my favourite places in Italy. Staying there for a couple of nights would be better but it's also possible as a day trip (I've done that). I can suggest an Itinerary for the day if you're interested, which ends in Monterosso where you can have a fine hot meal with Pesto before returning to Florence. The C.T. is where Pesto was invented and it always seems to taste better there.
• D9 / N1 - Bus to Siena (mid-morning would again be a good time - it's a very easy trip - Bus station in Florence is close to Firenze SMN rail station - Bus will drop you right in the main part of town, rather than the bottom of the hill where the rail station is located).
• D10 / N2 - Siena, touring (note that there's a dress code for the Duomo, so no bare shoulders or knees - I watched the humiliation of some college students on a visit there - a few of them were wearing sleeveless T-shirts and they were forced to wear a paper tablecloth with a hole cut in the centre, which of course resulted in much teasing from their friends - the dress code is very common in churches in Italy and especially the Vatican, as I saw what happened to a young lady there one hot day when she made the mistake of removing the shawl from her shoulders).
• D11 / N3 - Siena, rent car for the day for trip to Pienza and area (that way no overnight parking to deal with - I believe there's also a Bus from Siena to Pienza, but I'm not sure how often it runs - travel time is about 1H:15M).
• D12 / N1 - Train to Rome, (depending on which train you use, there will likely be one change in either Florence, Empoli or Chiusi - if the change is in Florence, you'll be using the high speed Freccia train from there to Rome - the quickest trip appears to be a departure at 12:15, arriving Rome at 15:20, one change at Chiusi, travel time 3H:05M, first leg Regionale so don't forget to validate, second leg InterCity so reservations compulsory).
• D13 / N2 - Rome, touring
• D14 / N3 - Rome, touring
• D15 / N4 - Rome, touring
• D16 - Return flight to the U.S.

Again, there are many possibilities. This version adds one night to Venice, eliminates the overnight stay in Lucca, but uses Florence as a "home base" for day trips, which is what I did on my visit there last year and it worked well. If you decide to use a rental car, I'd suggest packing along at least a good map, and possibly a GPS unit.

Continued.....

Shirley - Part 2......

As you're travelling with teens, one other important point to mention. The majority of teens these days seem to have their noses perpetually pressed against the screen of a Smartphone. If you're going to be travelling with devices of that type you'll have to keep a few things in mind…..

• You'll need to verify that the phones have the necessary frequency bands for operating in Europe.
• You'll need to check with your cell provider to determine what the roaming costs will be. Data roaming especially tends to be VERY expensive.
• You'll need to verify that the phone chargers are designed for use on 220 VAC electrical systems. Look for the words "Input Voltage" on the charger. If it states "Input 100-240 VAC" then you'll only need inexpensive Plug Adaptors to charge in Europe (that goes for any other appliances that you're packing along as well).

Good luck with your planning!

Ken, Nice job on the detailed second itinerary! I think you've managed to include all of Shirley's desires.

Shirley, you asked why the books include all those sample itineraries that move so fast and see so much. One can travel that fast, but most people on this board like a slightly slower pace to savor the locations visited. The fast-pace is difficult to maintain day after day, and the more people traveling together, the harder it is. For example, a 30-something couple may do more in a day than a 70-something couple or a family with children. I think the sample itineraries sometimes underestimate how long it takes to navigate if you are in an unfamiliar location and may not allow for a leisurely meal or an afternoon break to recharge the batteries before venturing out again. I found my first trip here that I had to set my expectations to not try and do everything. It takes time to figure out buses and trains (or routes and parking!), time to stand on line, time to rest and to eat, time to do laundry now-and-then. I also learned, with visitors that included a teenager and another family group with two small children, that a 60+ couple can do more in a day than people traveling with small humans. :-) Everyone's needs and desires need to be taken into account and that takes time.

A recurring theme is that staying fewer places saves time. Using a base and taking day trips can allow you to use your time better. This method of traveling also, to me, allows for a change-of-mind. Is everyone exhausted after the day trip to Pisa? Is it raining today? Is there a fabulous exhibit in town you didn't know about but everyone wants to see? Skip the trip to the Cinque Terre and spend the day in Firenze. If you had committed to a 2 night trip to the CT and the weather was bad, you'd still (most likely) have to go there or lose the money spent on car/train/bus/rooms. With a base and day trip approach, you really can have more flexibility.

By the way, if you are looking at the itineraries for guided tours and wondering at the 2-nights-here-and-2-nights-there pacing, when you have a guide who knows where to go, reserved tours, and a bus at your disposal, you can move a large group of people fast. It is different on your own.

I am sure you will have a wonderful trip no matter where you decide to go! Let me know if I can help you with Rome.

Here is the almost final itinerary:

Venice 3 nights. Take train to Lucca

Lucca 3 nights (the rest of the family decided they prefer to stay in smaller towns) One day trip to Florence and one day either stay in Lucca or day trip to Pisa. Or maybe swing by Pisa on our drive down to Siena area. Pick up rental car before we leave.

Siena area Agriturismo 4 nights so we can visit Siena and have 2 days to visit the hill towns.

Rome 4 nights. Visit Orvieto on the way to Rome and return rental there. Take train into Rome.

Thank you again for sharing your experiences and ideas with me. If this itinerary looks ok, then I will have to start looking for apartments or hotels. Any suggestion for Venice or Rome? For Rome, is it easy to use the public transportation? We'd like to stay in an area that's convenient to see all the sights. Do you recommend getting a local guide for Colosseum and Vatican Museum? How about Catacomb?

Thanks!

Looks like a great plan, Shirley.

Rome public transportation is pretty easy once you get the hang of the buses.. I think the Rick Steve's guide has a tutorial on how to read the bus signs. At www.atac.roma.it you can find a trip planner. Do stay centrally. The Prati area near the Vatican is well-connected by bus, tram and metro and worth exploring. Try VRBO.com for apartments.

In Venice we stayed here https://www.booking.com/hotel/it/nice-venice-apartments-in-san-marco.en-us.html?sid=66e895d8bb90edf4dd547230efe53cce;dcid=2 last spring and loved it. Very spacious and conveniently located.

Looks great. The catacombs all have guides included in the admission price, you can check specific tour times for English-language tours. As I recall the usual underground part of the tour is about an hour or so. It's cold and sometimes damp, take a sweater .