Chip and pin in Italy..inconsistent reports

Just was there in feb, no problems in shops or at hotel. Most resaurants we paid cash cause we were 3 couples.

Yes, last summer, no problems. For some cards you still need to request a PIN.

One thing I have been wondering about is that the super high rewards these cards give you have to be paid for by the merchants. A recent European banking regulations limits the amount of fees merchants pay to less than 1%.

There must be a voluntary opt-in by the merchant, so that retail, restaurants, etc who operate on healthy margins could be willing to live with the higher fees as it is still profitable for them. But railways and public transport networks operate at a deficit with government (taxpayer) support. I think that they are opting out and not accepting fees higher than the law allows. A 3% fee for that big cash-back reward hurts their bottom line in a big way and they are not taking it any more. You want to ride my train, you accept my commercial terms. I'm waiting for some of our banking experts to chime in on this. Am I guessing this one right?

Sam brings up a valid point that is always a point of contention even in the US -- why are merchants forced to pay such high fees in order to fund the generous mileage, cash back, and other rewards programs the credit cards offer? Shouldn't the card issuer foot the bill for these things since the merchant doesn't care how much you are getting back other than it is costing him money? But that's another topic for another time.

As recently as last October I had no issues using my Bank of America Travel Visa card or my Capital One Venture card or my Capital One 360 Debit card to buy train tickets in Italy. I have a PIN for each card and the kiosks all asked for one which I entered. The credit card PINs are for cash advances in the US, but work fine for normal purchases in Europe. You do NOT get charged for a cash advance when you use your credit card with PIN to make a purchase in Europe.

I talked to my Chase credit company and was told that in ANY situation where I used a pin the withdrawal would be considered a cash advance with the expensive outcomes that incurs.

I was very specific as to country and using my CC in train stations and was told DEFINITELY that cash advance rules are applied.
The agent advised to simply hit enter or cancel and the transaction would proceed without a pin.

Credit cards go through as a cash advance at ATMs, not at point of purchase. Debit cards St ATMs do not get processed as cash advances.

Ann

Chase lied to you, sort of. :-)

In the US, the statement from Chase is completely correct. The only purpose for a PIN on most US cards is for use at an ATM to get cash and will be the only place you will ever be asked for a PIN on a Chase card.

Yes, if you get a WITHDRAWAL of cash in Europe with your PIN, it is a cash advance just like in the US. If you make a purchase, not using an ATM even when entering your PIN, it is not a cash advance. It can't be because the PIN is not passed on to Chase from foreign purchase transactions over the international card networks so they don't know you entered it. The PIN might be requested during a European transaction simply because every European credit card is set up to be PINed so it helps to have it. The key to this is the difference between a withdrawal and a purchase which are completely different things in the credit card world.

(I worked for Chase 20 years in a past life in their card processing group and for a major card network as well. I know these things. :-)

Mark..thanks for your reply.... sounds like you know what you are talking about.
But I have called 3 times to Chase just to see if I get a consistent response, had them repeat my question back to me in their own words just to check for their understanding and used the word Italy and train station each time, and the reps. said they understood the difference between an ATM cash withdrawal and usage in Europe at point to point and each time the response was the same, using a Pin in Europe starts the cash advance process with all the cost that implies.
So are American banks really that ignorant about Europe?

Tempted to make a possibly politically incorrect statement about Americans (yes I am one).

I was in Italy 2 weeks ago and used a Citi card with a chip for hotels, restaurants, and stores without incident. I was never asked for a PIN. The only time I was asked for a PIN was when buying a train ticket at Milano Centrale for the Malpensa Express to the airport. Just in case, be sure you know what your PIN is! (I didn't, but that's another story....)

Mark is correct. Like Europe, here in Canada, all credit card purchases now require a PIN, as all our credit cards are chip-enabled. When first introducing the chip/PIN technology, there was a grace period where you didn't have to enter the PIN when using a chip card - but now it is absolutely de rigueur. This may explain how people are still managing to not enter the PIN in some places in Europe, but I suspect as time goes by, these situations could become less and less. Or maybe the machine recognizes that the card is from a foreign banking institution, it may exempt you - I don't know, just guessing. We use our credit cards for absolutely everything here - restaurants, gas, groceries, fast food, coffee, drug stores.... If what Chase said applied to our cards, we'd go back to carrying huge wads of cash (or using debit). But maybe Chase is "different" from banks world-wide (but like Mark, I doubt it). But since I am not a Chase employee, the safe thing may be to use your credit card for a small purchase with the PIN near the end of your trip, and see if the cash advance fee was applied on your next bank statement. If not, then you can PIN away on future trips like the rest of the world!

We visited Switzerland for two weeks late February/early March and had no problem using our Visa credit card in Switzerland. Pushed the card into the chip slot and accepted, showed the signature back of card side and signed the receipt. That said, I didn't use an automated (unstaffed) terminal.

The bigger difficulty of travel in Italy is it seems that the Italians were less likely to accept credit cards. Our one day visiting Italy for lunch was a different story from Switzerland in the sense that the Italian cafe's didn't take credit cards of any kind, wanting cash. Some folks who didn't have Euro cash had to run over to an ATM cash machine to pull out a 20 EUR bill for their lunch bill.

I think you should just not worry about it. There will always be people who crow about a problem and make mountains out of mole hills. Sometimes the problem is with the "user" and not the card.

Mark is correct. Like Europe, here in Canada, all credit card purchases now require a PIN, as all our credit cards are chip-enabled. When first introducing the chip/PIN technology, there was a grace period where you didn't have to enter the PIN when using a chip card - but now it is absolutely de rigueur.

My wife and recently spent one month in Canada and used our credit cards extensively. The only time I was asked for a PIN was when charging gas at the pump. Otherwise, at restaurants, hotels, museums, etc, I was always asked for a signature.

Just got back from Italy yesterday. Absolutely no issues with my credit cards whatsoever. Everybody at the restaurants and stores used their machine in front of you and you signed away. No issues with the bank machines either when I used my debit card.
They seem so far ahead of us here in the states!!!
We had the most incredible time in Florence, Tuscany and Venice, It is very hard to be back!

It is not something to worry about but does not mean you might not have minor inconveniences depending on what you are doing where.

If you are driving / renting a car you will be more likely to experience the potential issues.
The issue is for our US cards they need a signature since not a pin associated with a credit purchase on a US card. Which is also why the threads above mention cash advance.

You don't use the pin# on a US card for a credit transaction.

Anyway, this lack of ability to sign becomes a problem at places that are usually manned but happen to not be when you get there. For example a gas station during lunch hours, very late at night, in a small town on a Sunday, OR at some toll booths.
In both cases cash is fine but you will find your US credit cards will not work.
European cards since they have a pin associated with credit work fine.
Both of these cases were in late 2016 ; and I doubt any different today.

I was using or trying to use a Chase Sapphire credit card plus other brands Debit/Credit card
Nothing I did while overseas with the Chase card was billed as a cash advance but as I said the required times for a pin a US pin won't work, something in the machines defaults to sign required on US cards.

Restaurants you should not have any issue, but stay long enough and you have a restaurant's "system down" or similar on at least one occasion so in Italy always best to have some cash and not rely solely on credit cards like one can in the US.

The people you talked with at Chase read to you from a carefully constructed script (as does every employee you would talk to at any credit card company). They are not allowed to deviate from what they are shown in the script to tell you. If the words PIN and TRANSACTION are entered, the response back is "the transaction is treated like a cash advance". The system is not flexible enough to handle anything beyond that.

All I can say is from my own experiences, using my credit cards at unattended kiosks in Europe over the past few years to make a purchase where I was asked to enter a PIN in various countries and I did enter a PIN were never treated as cash advances and always showed up as purchases the same as other transactions I signed for.

thanks everyone...and Mark especially for your in-depth knowledge.

Never drive in Europe, so that is not an issue.
And of course, I will have euros as well. But I am going to go ahead and obtain a pin for the cards I will carry.

This forum is always very helpful, because I am confident that I am hearing from real travelers!
Since I travel alone to Europe (love my solo travels!) I try to build backup and plan B and Plan C!

Next trip is May 6 to May 27, excited as usual.

Bob: Yes, you confirmed my suspicion that foreign (i.e. U.S.) credit cards are exempt from the PIN here in Canada. But it is still de rigueur for us when we use our (i.e. Canadian) credit cards - signatures are no longer accepted, if no PIN, then you are outta luck!

Re Alleyo/Calgary Canadian experience:
I visited NB, NS and PEI last fall and used my American (Cap One) Chip & signature card without any difficulty and without a PIN. Atlantic Canada was happy to accept my American credit card expenditures without a PIN.

Did want to add for other travelers reading:
certain regions seem more accepting of credit cards (unrelated to the whole pin / chip / signature conversation) than others.

In the Cinque Terre for example credit cards seem highly discouraged. Not sure if it is the 3% or whatever extra fee, a way to hide revenue from taxes but many restaurants, B&B's and other places where in other parts of Italy credit cards are fine in the Cinque Terre they are very often cash only even for large purchases exceeding ones typical daily ATM limit.

I am sure some other regions are the same. This is more the exception to the rule but pockets of the country where credit cards are not widely accepted do exist.