Biggest Newtimers Ever

Of course it is doable but I would probably plan more than two weeks for that.

Posted by Ilja
Seattle
01/28/15 12:45 PM

1703 posts
Of course it is doable but I would probably plan more than two weeks for that.

Thanks for your reply. :) Truly, it's all the time we have.
Jennifer

An open jaw ticket is flying in to one city and out of another. When you are on your airline website click the tab that says something like multi-city. Flying in to Geneva because it seems cheaper may not really be cheaper. If you are not going to see Switzerland, then you are using valuable time and money to get to where you really want to go.

Since you are newcomers, I recommend Rick's Europe Thru the Back Door guide book which will help you with some of the basics.

Many people here don't particularly care for Milan, was there something you wanted particularly to see here? I did go to Milan last Fall as I wanted to see the Duomo there (family used to worship there in the 1870s), but I liked Rome, Florence and Venice better for walking and touring.

You don't need Rick's "Europe Through the Back Door" book if you get his book for Italy, which you should definitely do. It contains the parts of ETBD that pertain to Italy, which is all you need since that's the only country you'll be going to.

You should be advised that Palermo is a fairly gritty city, at least from what I've heard. It may be a little rough around the edges for your taste.

As for best time to purchase airfare, those days are gone. The airlines have consolidated so much that they do not have any predictable time when prices are lower. You're pretty much at their mercy. You can, however, register at a lot of airfare sites to receive notices of when a particular price changes.

When deciding what the "cheapest" options are, be sure to factor in such things as lack of convenience and loss of time. Do you really want to spend a lot of time trapped on a train to save a couple hundred bucks in the context of many thousands of dollars?

Thanks Michael, I do have his Italy 2015 book.
Another question I have is- do I buy a pass for all these train trips, or leg by leg?

Trains in Italy are fairly inexpensive, and an adult pass is almost never a good deal. I'm not sure if that also applies to young people. The only way to be sure is figure out how much each segment would cost, and compare that to the cost of the pass. One caution – the RS guidebook gives prices for various train trips; however, those are Full price fares. If you can finalize your travel days before then, you can get much cheaper tickets online. However, the cheap tickets go first, so you should move on that soon. Also, the cheapest tickets are not refundable or transferable.

I agree with others that you can't do what your specifying in the time available. I really like Milan, but I would drop it since this is your first time to Italy. Also, I would suggest picking either the CT or the Amalfi coast, rather than both coastal areas.

One possibility, given the time you have, would be Rome, Sorrento/Amalfi/Pompeii, and a little bit of time in Sicily. If you want to keep the CT, another possibility would be Venice or Florence, the CT, and Rome.

Point-to-point train tickets are cheap in Italy, relative to other countries. If your dates are firm, you can buy them up to 120 days in advance at super-economy prices, but you cannot change the ticket once you buy it. The ticket will be emailed to your phone or computer.

If you fly into Milano, you may make up the difference in airfare by not needing to buy train or plane tickets from Geneva to Italy. Check the comparable costs. You could fly out of Rome or Palermo, but in two weeks, Sicily is a bit of a stretch, unless you fly from Naples to Palermo and from Palermo to Rome if you want to leave from Rome (save your Rome nights for the end of your trip to avoid backtracking). It's a very long train ride or drive by rental car. You can find flight prices and info at Alitalia (other cheap airlines also fly into Palermo but I don't use them so I don't know which ones they are).

So, if you start in Milano, spend your first night there, see the Duomo and whatever else interests you, then take the train the next day or the day after to Cinque Terre. You might want two or three nights in Cinque Terre, then go to Rome. I would say four nights in Rome, but three if you can't do four (three is better than none). You can take the train to Napoli (1.25 hours) and then the Circumvesuviana train (same station, down stairs, different train company, separate ticket). Sorrento is the last stop and it takes a little over an hour to get there (not counting waiting time for the train, maybe 15-20 minutes). Be alert if the Circumvesuviana is crowded.

From Naples you can fly to Palermo, see a bit of Sicily (towns of Segesta, Monreale, Erice, Trapani), and then fly back to Rome for a few nights before the trip home.

Just one thing you might want to be aware of regarding your teen-agers. Many sites all over Europe extend discounts, often substantial, to students/young people. They should always carry some sort of i.d., which shows their ages. Sometimes the discounts are only for EU citizens, but it never hurts to ask. The Italian word for discount is sconto, but there may be another, like reduction or something else which escapes my mind at the moment.

With 2 weeks you don't have time to include Sicily on this trip. Fly into Milan and stay for a night or two depending on what you want to see, then spend 2-3 nights in Cinque Terre, then I would head all the way to Sorrento for about 4-5 nights, then finish off the trip in Rome with however many nights you have left.

I personally would not do both CT and Amalfi coast on the same trip, and would instead pick someplace that would give a completely different sort of experience, like the Dolomites or Venice.

4 locations might be the limit for most travelers, to really enjoy the city without only seeing the inside of trains and buses.....2 nights in a location means 1 full day, and to be honest, its very hard to "see" anything major on those transition/travel days....so in reality, you will be losing a good chunk of 3 days in your 2 week period.....

Here's an idea, for logistics purposes and to enjoy your time the most, I would possibly fly into Naples and out of Milan or some other city in the north with more areas of interest nearest the airport transportation (I say that because to fly out of Naples, you should probably stay IN Naples, and it will take a night from another location).....

jenny,

As the others have mentioned, your trip may be feasible for a two week time frame, but probably won't be practical for such a short time. Does your two weeks include your two flight days? You'll generally arrive in Europe the day after you depart, and will be jet lagged for a day or two after that so won't be up to full touring speed.

A few thoughts and questions.....

• I wouldn't bother flying into Geneva if you're not planning to stop there. Keep in mind that while the flight may be cheaper, it will cost both time and money to get to where you really want to visit. With the places you listed, Milan would be a more suitable destination.
• Rather than stopping in Milan for one night (unless there's something you want to see there), I'd suggest carrying on right to the Cinque Terre. It's a bit of a grind after a long international flight, but certainly possible. There are a few direct trains from Milano Centrale to Monterosso every day, and if you can connect with one of those it will be a fairly quick trip and you won't have to worry about changes.
• I also feel that Palermo would be better left for another visit. You might consider limiting your trip to Cinque Terre, Rome and Sorrento, with day trips. You'd probably have time for a fourth location (ie: Florence or Siena) if you wish. Book your return flight out of Naples, as the airport is easily accessible from Sorrento. WHICH of the five Cinque Terrre towns are you planning to stay in?
• I don't know the best time to purchase airfare. It would help to have some idea where you're flying from as some of the group here may have experience with flights from your area.
• Purchasing P-P tickets is usually the best idea in Italy. It's possible to purchase tickets online at a discount for the "fast" trains, but you MUST be willing to commit to a specific train, date and departure time as these have compulsory reservations. If you're caught without a valid reservation for the train you're riding on, you'll face hefty fines which will be collected on the spot! With the slower Regionale trains, you MUST validate your tickets prior to boarding the train on the day of travel, or again hefty fines. The same applies to travel on buses, metro or whatever. If you'd rather maintain a more flexible schedule, you can buy tickets when there, either from a Kiosk or staffed ticket office. With Regionale tickets, there's no point in buying those in advance (and it'd more difficult to do so) - just buy locally and validate them prior to use.
• When exactly is this trip taking place?

I hope you have now resolved to fly to your first destination in Italy, instead of Switzerland. Youth discounts for ages 12-25 on the Eurail Italy pass are only a few dollars less than the adult saverpass rate, so that doesn't affect your comparison of pass vs. tickets.

Thanks, everyone, for your input. It's so appreciated.
Unfortunately, I have a very set budget for airfare, and nothing is coming in close if I fly into Italy.
Thanks for your thoughtful post, Vernon. We are going 6/20,21 to 7/4,5.
I found one way to Geneva for $648/pp. Can't find anything direct from SFO - any city in Italy close to that.
I 'm a huge novice. I just want to get the air out of the way so I can start planning the fun part.
Open to all ideas. :)

jenny,

Thanks for the additional information. For travel at that time of the year, it would be a good idea to get hotel bookings in place fairly soon, especially in the Cinque Terre.

While I can appreciate your desire to get the cheapest air fare, flying inbound to Geneva will be somewhat of an ordeal (and probably not the best way to start out the trip). Using Geneva Airport as the starting point and Monterosso (C.T.) as the destination, your travel time after landing will be between about 7.5 and 14 hours with 2 to 4 changes, depending on which trains you connect with!!! I didn't check the costs for that trip, but I'm sure it won't be cheap.

You might also research inbound flights to Pisa, Genoa or Florence. It might help to speak with a travel agent.

I am puzzled by the fact that you're quoting a one-way price. One-way tickets are usually hugely expensive.

You want to search for round-trip tickets. And if you can finalize your first and last cities, use the search option called something like "multi-city". that will allow you to fly into one city and out of a different city. And that type of multi-city (or open-jaw) ticket won't cost much more then flying into and out of the same city – and it's often less expensive when you factor in the cost of returning to your original city.

Generally it's less expensive to fly into a major city like Milan or Rome compared with a smaller city such as Venice or Florence.

One additional point. I just noticed you are flying from SFO, which is the airport I use. I have not found direct flights to Italy, but I always try to transfer at a city in Europe rather than in the US – that way if I miss the connection because the plane is late, I'm in Europe and have more options for getting to my final destination. Last time I booked something, Delta had a lot of flights from SFO to Italy (although my last couple of experiences on them have been less than stellar; I plan to avoid Delta code shares flown by Alitalia). I've had some very pleasant experiences on Swiss, and hope to be able to fly them when I go later this year. United also should have a number flight options, although I tend to avoid them – but that's just a personal bias.

I just checked, and I know it may not be ideal, but round trip to Rome is only $1183 on AerLingus, so that's a place to start if you are really constrained by price....you can land and go directly to your first destination....

I'd agree with all of the above that flying open jaw in and out of Italy makes the most sense from a time and possibly even a budget perspective. I'd investigate flying into Milan and out of Rome (often the best Italian destinations for air prices) to save the hassle of getting from The Boot from Geneva. I'll also throw my vote in with skipping Palermo: two weeks isn't enough time to do justice to the amount of cities on your list. The transport fees you would save there - as well as transport from Geneva - can be added to your airfare budget.

To echo a previous poster, yes, your under-age-18 children will be admitted to Italian state museums for free: a nice little cost saving! Some of those include the Colosseum, Forum and Palatine in Rome, and the Pompeii Scavi (recommended day trip from Sorrento) among others.

I don't think we can over emphasize the importances of booking your accommodations for the Cinque Terre right away. They fill up far in advance of peak summer season with the best of the more affordable picks going first. With 4 of you, I might suggest looking at apartments for all of your city stays versus hotels. R.S. members who've rented themselves will have some good suggestions there.

Here's another thought - if you want to fly into Geneva, then do some sightseeing in Switzerland or France to take advantage of that. Southern Italy is likely to be pretty hot in July and coming from San Francisco that might be a problem... It would help if you could give us some idea of your interests.

Nobody flies non-stop to Italy from SFO (sigh) but there ARE flights from LAX if you wanted to fly down the night before (to ensure you don't get fogged in or otherwise miss the connection) We flew to Italy from SFO via Amsterdam (KLM) to Rome, very smooth connection.

@Katherine, where did you find that Aer Lingus flight? I can't find Italy on their site?

I was just looking through kayak, putting in random options for city combinations.....I didn't end up clicking through, and now I see they have disappeared, I find that Tuesdays and Wednesdays have the most fluctuation for prices.....sorry! I would set up fare alerts and check all the time....

You might want to check out Norwegian Air. They fly out of Oakland into Pisa and from Palermo to Oakland. I have not flown them and they get mixed reviews on their service, but they might be worth a look. it looks like they only fly in and out of Oakland on Fridays,

Also try rome2rio.com to look for airlines that may suit your route. Since you must change planes somewhere, you have more choices on cities to fly into and out of in Italy.

I recommend starting in Venice. There's nowhere like it and it's a good place to absorb the atmosphere while getting over the long-haul flight and jetlag.

Palermo is a small part of Sicily, and hardly the best part.

Take into account how efficiently your family travels. Changing locations uses up lots of hours. Is anyone slow getting out of bed, or taking a shower, or packing. . . you can only move as fast as the slowest person in the group. Packing, checking out, getting to and from train stations, picking up or dropping off luggage at hotels, all this takes time. A 1-2 hour train ride can eat up 4-5 hours of your sightseeing day. The Cinque Terre and Sorrento are both very time-consuming to get to and from, because of the slow trains and multiple connections.

We've decided to forgo Sicily this trip. It just makes more sense. But we are still flying into Geneva, for price and flying duration. We will see some of Switzerland too!
Now I have to figure out the train from Geneva. Is there a good place to figure out the train schedules and fares??
You guys are ever helpful.

Chani....Rome2Rio.com is so helpful!!!! Thank you!!!

Once you have the route, use the German rail website bahn.de for schedules.

jenny,

As Chani mentioned, one of the best resources for finding rail schedules all over Europe is the Bahn.de website. I believe it's only possible to buy tickets on the website for trips which originate in Germany. However, you could also use the Capitaine Train website.

One important point to mention is that it's often not advisable to pre-purchase rail tickets to connect with an inbound flight. If these have compulsory reservations and the flight is late, you may miss your booked train.

Okay, guys, I finally bought the tickets and would love your thoughts. It's a weird itinerary, so please just go with it.

June 19: SFO to Geneva
June 20: Geneva stay overnight. (Graduation boy wants to see another country)
June 21: Leave Geneva to train or fly to Venice
June 22: Venice (was told by an Italian that one day of Venice is enough)
June 23: Train to Cinque Terre
June 24: CT
June 25: CT train to Sorrento (Long one)
June 26: Sorrento
June 27: Day trip to Naples/Pompeii back to Sorrento
June 28: Day trip to Capri
June 29: (Stay with me folks) Train to Barletta(Family friend lives there)
June 30: Barletta
July 1: Barletta to Rome
July 2: Rome
July 3: Rome
July 4: Fly home from Rome

We are a young, very active family. My boys want to immerse themselves in culture, hang out and meet as many people as possible. Fast paced is okay for us.
I'm up for a good critique here though.
Another question: does anyone know the laws on skateboarding in the different cities?
Thanks guys. I love reading this forum .
Jenny

jenny,

I'd have to spend some time looking at your plans in detail, but a few initial thoughts.....

• Geneva to Venice - the trip is about 7-10 hours by train, depending on which train you use. A good choice would be a departure at 07:42, arriving Venezia Santa Lucia at 14:40 (time 6H:58M, direct, reservations compulsory).
• The trip from Venice to the Cinque Terre will also be the better part of a full day, with at least one change.
• Given the two long travel days, I'm wondering if one day in Venice is worth the effort. If you were to skip that and go directly to the Cinque Terre, you'd have about another day for touring.
• Visiting Pompeii and Naples on the same day may be a bit challenging. While it can be done, I'm not sure how much you'd be able to see.
• There are some potentially expensive "caveats" to be aware of when using trains and other public transit it Italy. If you need further details on those, post another note.
• Be sure to wear Money Belts, especially in Naples and on the Circumvesuviana between Naples and Sorrento. Watch your valuables closely!

I know there are skateboarding parks in some cities, but I have never seen anyone skateboarding on a public street - there must be a reason for that. Perhaps this is a research topic for the grad.

Ken, what do you mean by "•There are some potentially expensive "caveats" to be aware of when using trains and other public transit it Italy. If you need further details on those, post another note.?
What note do I post?
Thanks so much
Jenny

jenny,

I'll send you a PM with my usual "boilerplate" on the subject.

As Ken said, with your new itinerary, you're looking at numerous 6-7 hour train rides, each with changes, every few days. It's your trip, but I would not want to do this. For starters, while your Italian friend may have thought 1 day in Venice was sufficient, most of us disagree. And even if it were, you're going a long way out of your way for just that one day. So, I'd either skip it and head right to the Cinque Terre, or spend more time in Venice and drop something else.

I'm going to look into getting a flight from Geneva instead of train, though we really did want to see the countryside and decompress, and get set for the next high speed days.
Someone was saying not to go to both CT & Sorrento, but both come in such high regard that it's impossible to make the decision!!!
I wish Barletta wasn't in the picture, but it is.
Choosing between Naples and Pompeii? What do you say?

I curious. Given the nature of your questions have you ready any guidebooks or view any travel DVDs on these areas? I am assuming not. Go to your public library and check out everything they have. You need a better understanding to evaluate the recommendations you are getting. You are really planning some major train travel that gets pretty boring after the first hour. A lot of the country side looks the same after awhile.

My boys want to immerse themselves in culture, hang out and meet as many people as possible. Hard to do when spending long hours on a train. Just changing locations takes away a lot of time from productive sightseeing. Immerse yourself in the culture means standing still. Right now, you have more a drive by tour planned.

Leave the skateboards at home! The reason you don't see skateboards in Europe and elsewhere is that skateboards need relatively smooth asphalt or concrete. With cobblestone streets and broken sidewalk with the crowds of people on the sidewalks and streets, skateboards have no place to go.

Oh, hey Frank. Thanks for your reply. Yes, I have guidebooks, and have been reading them, but I like to also communicate with people who have been there, done that. I thought that's what this board was about. I've gotten some invaluable advice here, so I'm going to keep picking people's brains (I'm looking at you, Ken :) )

Maybe it's the routes we've taken, but I haven't felt we saw breath-taking scenery on our train trips through England and Europe. I think it's different if you drive and we haven't done the route you would be taking by train. However, after the trips we've taken, we'd opt for a flight and do our decompressing and relaxing at our destination.

jenny,

"I'm going to look into getting a flight from Geneva instead of train"

You likely won't save much (if any) time with a flight on that route, although it's going to be a toss up on which one is quicker. Keep in mind that you'll have to include time to and from each airport, as well as the usual airport hassles (check-in, waiting time, going through security, boarding and deplaning, etc.). In addition to the cost of four plane tickets, you'll also be dealing with luggage charges and other "fees", which are hard to avoid when using airlines these days and of course the cost of airport transportation for your group.

I detest the usual airport "dog & pony show" (insert Circus Calliope music here) so much that I'd gladly spend seven hours on a train rather than fly, as it's a lot more relaxing (and usually more interesting). However seven hours is close to my "tipping point" when it comes to a decision between air and rail.

You mention wanting to take trains in order to see the scenery. Given the distances that you're traveling, you need to remember that you're mostly going to be on high-speed trains. Consequently, you're not going to be seeing a lot of scenery as it zips by.

One other thing, since you mentioned budget constraints. Switzerland is a very expensive country, and it's even more expensive now given the currency revaluation. Consequently, you should book your lodgings as soon as possible to try to get something that's economical.

Jenny,

Look at easy jet for flights from Geneva to Venice. They have a flight on the evening of the 21st.

Leaves @19:40 arrives VCE @ 20:55. Flight time 1H15m. Cost w/seat & luggage $66.19.

I have another proposal for you. Eliminate the CT. Since you've bought your tickets, you could add a day, or even two, to Geneva. There's actually quite a bit to see and do along the shores of the lake. The Amalfi Coast will provide what people commonly say they go to the CT for . . . scenery, hiking, etc., and more. You could also add some of that CT time to Sorrento for exploring the AC. I'm not a fan of Naples. Imo, there's one attraction, the Archaeological Museum. If that doesn't grab you, eliminate Naples. At any rate, to do it along with Pompeii in one day seems to me to be too much. Consider Herculaneum as an alternative if you can't be dissuaded from a single day for Naples and an archaeological site. Herculaneum is quite a bit smaller than Pompeii.

Okay, well thanks guys....
We've eliminated Barletta and added Florence. I plan to fly from Geneva to Venice via EasyJet (Thanks Gerri)
Here's my updated itinerary. My train times are looking leaner. Yay!

June 19: SFO to Geneva
June 20: Geneva stay overnight. (Graduation boy wants to see another country)
June 21: Leave Geneva to train or fly to Venice
June 22: Venice
June 23: Train to Cinque Terre 5hrs train
June 24: CT
June 25: CT train to Florence 3hrs train
June 26: Florence
June 27: Florence to Sorrento 4hrs train
June 28: Sorrento day trip to Pompei
June 29: Sorrento day trip to Naples
June 30: Sorrento to Rome 3hrs train
July 1: Rome
July 2: Rome
July 3: Rome
July 4: Fly home from Rome
How's that looking? I still need to polish it up a but and figure some things out, but your critiques and advice has been ever helpful!