Dishonest fine in Manarola train station, Cinque Terre

I think most of you will find that this is a rare intervention on my part. Please note that the only reason I'm allowing for this thread to remain is for the OP's intent in that people should be aware of this sort of dishonest attempt at extracting additional money.

However, what is missing in the OP's remarks is the context that he is a member of the State Department and as such is far more likely to have detected the nuances necessary to know the difference between a legit fine for having the wrong ticket - something extremely common - and a dishonest attempt at getting extra money from you.

For 99% of you reading along, the method of doubling and tripling down and arguing back with the train conductor and (purported) police is a great way to ruin your trip, get fined, and arrested (and miss your flight home, have a summons to return to the country at a later time, etc). I'm glad that this worked out for the OP in the end, and I'm very sorry to have heard of this encounter, but most people reading this should absolutely not take this example as model behavior when traveling abroad unless you have all the knowledge to know that this was a dishonest encounter.

We've already seen in another thread that this subject is leading to arguments which we do not permit on our boards. The only responses I will allow in this thread are those that indicate methods that are helpful for the average traveler for how to handle this sort of situation. All others will be removed and may involve further levels of moderation. No further commentary on the OP's experience will be necessary. All replies should avoid hyperbole and drama.

"The only responses I will allow in this thread are those that indicate methods that are helpful for the average traveler [sic] ...."

Good advice. The most obvious method for the average traveller [correct spelling] would be to double check and make sure you have the correct ticket. Hope that helps.

Nick, thank you

Thank you Web Master

Thanks Webmaster. Those were nuances lost on me from the original threads.

What the conductor says doesn’t make much sense. At first I thought you had a ticket for a Regional train (which is like a commuter first come first served train where seats are not reserved) but you accidentally boarded a more expensive high speed train (Intercity or Frecciarossa) which requires seat reservation. However only regional trains stop at Manarola, so, unless you boarded the train going to the wrong direction I’m not sure what ticket you had and what train you boarded.

You did the right thing to push back. Some of those conductors think they are real policemen. The Conductors are public officials who are exercising an official function, but cannot detain anybody, that can be done only by Police or Carabinieri, and even in that case, if they arrest a foreigner, they have the legal obligation to immediately communicate the arrest to the closest diplomatic mission (US Consulate in Florence) and no lazy Italian policeman will go to that extent unless it’s something serious, certainly not to someone who boarded the wrong train. They would probably get in trouble with their superiors if they did something like that.

I will need more detail on this event to understand what went on, but I think this might have been just a power trip by the conductor and whoever said to be the police but unless they were impostors disguising as conductors and policemen in some kind of scamming scheme (which I suspect might be the case because from the description the claim by the conductor doesn’t make any sense), a conductor would not try to extract extra money, because they have to give you a receipt they have to account for in a reconciliation at the end of the day and they don’t get a commission for each fine they give.

Where were you trying to go from Manarola and which direction was the train goin (East or west), and did you have a regional train ticket from Manarola to where?

Having just been to the Cinque Terra last month and experienced the massive crowds, the chaos with the trains and the conductors checking tickets as you exit the trains, I would advise anyone visiting multiple cities during the day to just spend a few more euros and get the Cinque Terra pass.

To me it appears very strange that someone boarding in Manarola would board the wrong train.

Trains stopping in Manarola are only regional trains, so assuming the OP purchased a ticket from Manarola to Vernazza, a fine can occur only if:
1. The ticket was not validated (date stamped) at a machine before boarding
2. The OP boarded the train headed to the wrong direction (toward Riomaggiore instead of toward Vernazza)
3. The OP did not get off at Vernazza, but stayed on the train beyond Vernazza and went to Monterosso.

In case of someone is caught without a valid ticket, the penalty is the payment of the ticket plus a fine of 200€, which is however reduced to 100€ if paid within 15 days, and further reduced to 50€ if paid on the spot to the Trenitalia personnel.

So unless any of the above scenarios occurred, those guys were impostors disguising as Trenitalia personnel trying to make a quick buck off some foreign tourists

So in the Cinque Terre villages, tickets are only inspected after one leaves the train? I guess that makes sense, as when we rode from Vernazza to Manarola 14 years ago, the train was so packed it was impossible for a ticket inspector to move through the train. Do they have turnstiles or other barriers that prevent exiting until a valid ticket is displayed? Just trying to understand.

If we are to learn from this post, it would be helpful to know how to spot the fake “politizia”.

Was the ticket inspector also a fake? Did he have a Trenitalia uniform? If he called in real police to extract the fine, what kind of uniforms should they have? Would they be armed? There are Carabinieri, Guardia di Finanza, local Polizia——I assume none of those would be involved in collecting Trenitalia fines—-or am I wrong? Should one ask for official ID before responding to the demand for a fine, and if so, what does it look like?

Stay your ground if you feel like but be careful not to cross too many lines. I remember a Saturday afternoon , about 30 years ago, I was traveling between Florence and Milan. At the time fast trains had compartments, free seating on non-reserved places and a supplementary "fast" ticket over the ordinary one. In Florence four people boarded the train; they were back from a fishing competition and going back to Verona. They had not the supplementary tickets and when the inspector began writing four extra tickets plus four fines, they began insulting him in Veneto dialect and the thing escalated. They refused to pay. When they got down in Bologna to change trains, they found several agents from the railway police to take care of them; obviously summoned from the train by the conductor.
Assuming that if you have just made a mistake you could get out just paying a small fine is a wrong assumption; for example, not having a eur 1,70 ticket on a Tuscan bus involves a minimum fine of eur 43 that would be perfectly legitimate (more if not paid quickly).

Out of curiousity, how would you best handle this situation: A couple weeks ago, I was on a regular Bernina train to Tirano on my way to Varenna. The Swiss train was over an hour late getting into Tirano so I changed the time of my Tirano to Varenna train on my phone. Trenitalia indicated that the purchase/adjustment was accepted but that the email to me confirming it had encountered some error. This meant I did not have an updated digital ticket or QR code. It was not in my Trenitalia account because I had booked the tickets through the Swiss rail site. There was no agent at the Tirano Trenitalia station. I got on the train to Varenna but was very anxious that I would get fined even though I had paid for the ticket and had the Trenitalia message to show. Fortunately, no one checked tickets.

The post said that the requested fine was 160€ then increased to 400€, which the "officials" presumably wanted to be paid on the spot.

The actual fines, if legitimate, would not have been that amount. The fine is 50€ if paid on the spot to the conductor, or €100 if paid within 15 days, or €200 if paid within 60 days.

The only trains that stop at Manarola are Regional trains, the cheapest type of trains. Therefore it would be impossible to have boarded a more expensive Frecciarossa, Frecciabianca, or Intercity.

Therefore this was a scam perpetrated by some criminal gang of impostors. No question about that.

How to handle this? At least in France, if we have a glitch, we seek out the controller in the train early on. Go to him or her. Don’t wait for the person to come around to you to scan your ticket.

To summarize:

1. Don't leave your BS Detector at home. Don't let bullies (including fake police or real ones) get you flustered and confused just because you are in an unfamiliar environment. If something appears crazy, calm down, be rational, don't let your guard down, and don't make yourself an easy mark. Real cops or real train officials will be in real uniforms (not some cheesy vest they bought on amazon), and will not hesitate to fully show you their badge/credentials (which will be unmistakeable if they're real, and if not just waved at you for an instant before hiding it) if you ask politely. Don't bring an attitude, be civil at all times...

2. Remain civil, be cooperative, act like an adult and a professional, AND EXPECT THE SAME FROM WHOEVER IS CONFRONTING YOU. It's OK to "stand your ground" but don't "push back". Maybe you caught someone having a bad day. They should not start pushing harder if you politely request they call the police or a supervisor to sort things out. If they start escalating and bloviating when you ask questions, keep asking them (politely, but without fear). See point #1 above about your BS Detector...if it's off the scale, there's probably a reason for that.

A few comments:

*Regarding the CT passes, when we were in CT, bad weather that never materialized, closed the trails between the towns. Apparently when that happens, they won't sell the train pass which was frustrating because its a more convenient way to get between the towns and allows you to use restrooms.

*We were staying in Manarola and had been enjoying Riomaggiore. We got on the train to go back to Manarola and from Google maps, I could tell that the train had skipped Manarola, and got off as soon as we realized it. There were a group of us that got off in Vernazza and needed to get to Manarola. The train employee wouldn't help us just get on a train going the correct direction. The ticket line was long. We went to the person at the counter who wouldn't take a credit card or help us get a ticket back to Manarola.

*CT is overrun by tourists. It is beautiful, but much of it crowded. That makes for crabby train employees AND tourists and I would suggest extra patience is always appreciated and wise.

The only responses I will allow in this thread are those that indicate
methods that are helpful for the average traveler for how to handle
this sort of situation. All others will be removed and may involve
further levels of moderation. No further commentary on the OP's
experience will be necessary. All replies should avoid hyperbole and
drama.

In the spirit of the Webmaster’s request.

• if you believe them to be legitimate, do as you are instructed.
• maintain a positive attitude about those doing their jobs.
• recognize that even as a visitor that you are subject to the laws and rules where you are visiting and maintain that decorum.
• In a different culture recognize that it is difficult for you to put situations in a context that is the same as your home country.
• understand that bad behavior on your part might get you what you want, but at what to the next tourist that these brow beat officers may encounter.

You will find another post of mine (dont remember the topic) where I described a group of tourists who got nailed in a metro station for .... I am assuming forgetting to validate their tickets. They had their tickets in hand, I did see that, and I heard some of the conversation. As is the policy and the "ticket police" dont seem to have any leeway in policy (which does ensure consistency and thats good), the tourist were going to pay the fine no matter what they said. Even if they DID have tickets and they DID intend to comply with the rules.

But these tourists were pure class. They were politely trying to understand what they had doen wrong and what to do next time (I stood about 10feet away and listened). The "ticket cop" took the time to explain everything and was exceedingly polite. Even walked them to the validation machine and showed them how to use it. A few jokes were exchanged and a little laughter. The fine was paid on the spot in cash as is customary ... 4 tourists x 12.000 Hungarian forints = $140 yankee dollars in fines on $4 of improperly used metro tickets. At the end the women hugged the "ticket cop". It was all lovely to see.

Bottom line. They saved the day for themselves. They made the moment good by befriending the ticket cop. I suspect they will remember that more than the amount of the fine.

Apparently the webmaster has deleted some earlier comments that existed?

Hopefully OP returns with more details as the answers to the questions posed by Roberto look like they would provide helpful context to understand the situation. Knowing when to 'stand your ground' vs. accepting the fact you messed up and must face the consequences can be a fine line and the less grey area there is the better in helping others know the difference and act accordingly.

The free day I had in CT on the RS tour, we took the boat between towns, so do not know how the ticketing works for the 'commuter' train between the towns.( The guide provided us our tickets for our arrival/departure rides into/out of MonteRosso. My only task was "do not lose it')

Yes, we are new to the Rick Steves site, which provided a default name at sign-up (yesterday) so we changed it to our preference - is that acceptable?

The webmaster asked that I not provide further details, and I will honor that request. If unable to understand the context of my details, I suggest that if it feels right to you, go ahead and pay the 160-400 euro fine to the 'fake police.'

Without offering an opinion, I would add that there have been several reports in the La Spezia press of teams of plainclothed police (in borghese) assigned to patrol the Cinque Terre trains to counter the pickpocketing problem there.

Dougmac, the OP said above:

"Yes, we are new to the Rick Steves site, which provided a default name at sign-up (yesterday) so we changed it to our preference - is that acceptable?

So it's the same individual but under their chosen member name versus the original default. I don't see an issue with that, especially as our Webby has hand a hand moderating this thread. The original post you referenced had been deleted; this one, with some (requested?) modifications, replaced it. Make sense? :O)

Mike, if you get on public transportation in my city, from time to time you will face a spot inspection of your ticket or pass. The spot inspection will be in the form of a very common looking man or woman who had been riding the conveyance for some period of time standing up, pulling out an elastic armband (an arm band by the way that looks like it has been through several wars without having ever been washed), then pulling a ticket reading device out of a backpack after which they demand to see tickets. If you are not in compliance you will be asked to pay 12.000 ft on the spot (about $35), no excuses, no exceptions. Or you may take a ticket (after they get all of your information on where you are staying, etc.) and choose to pay later at your leisure for about $70. If you become confrontational, they will call the police and odds are pretty good you will be taken away. You could run. Some do. If you do get taken away, I hope you have your passport on you. After wasting the time of the police, it would not surprise me if they hit you with every violation they could think of. Might cost you thousands before its over.

Kathy I change my name frequently (look today). But my posts follow my new name. So its not like you are double posting or somehting. The name changes on every post you ever made.

I'm agree with Roberto: looks very like a scam by false policemen and train controller. Or at least a real (dishonest) train controller with some fake policemen.
Is true, like said by Iachera, that are not so common that kinds of scam, but is even true that almost weekly every local newspaper print articles about fakes policemen (or carabinieri, or lawyers) who are asking money for "the incident of the son" or for a "grandson arrested" by phone or ringing at the door. So that the same criminal are trying some new way to make money makes sense.

One important thing to remember: policemen are not allowed to receive money on the spot (cash or credit card). If a policeman is asking you to pay something directly to him is a scam.
So, maybe at the train controller you can pay directly, but if the policemen is asking you to pay directly the fine was for sure a scam. They should give you the bill and you can pay at the police station or online.
If a police control is happening and you are not sure if they are real, please call the 112, the Italian (and European) emergency number. You can at least require that they control if the "policemen" in front of you are real ones or fake.

On the other side, please remember that the job of the train ticket controllers is to control the tickets. They should be polite, but on a very busy line they faced probably several times a day people who never pay the tickets and use excuses: "I forgot to validate it", "I lost the ticket entering the train", "I'm so sorry to be on the wrong train" and so on.
I know how annoying is to be fined, but they are probably listen the same excuses too many times every day. Their job is to control the ticket, not forgive other people mistakes.

I guess if i were in the right presence of mind (took me 2 hours to think of this) I would suggest if you are suspicious that you ask to photograph their IDs. If they were fake, that would probably be the end of it. If not then call the police yourself.

I don’t know about this episode for sure since the OP didn’t share all the details, but scammers posing to be policemen are rare in Italy?
I think not.

https://questure.poliziadistato.it/it/Roma/articolo/5730dd6276c8a965675203
https://www.romatoday.it/tag/falsi-poliziotti/
https://www.redazionenews.it/cronaca-genovese/2024/08/02/finti-poliziotti-e-portalettere-arrestati-a-genova-per-truffa/
https://www.ilmessaggero.it/t/finti-poliziotti
https://www.lastampa.it/cuneo/2023/11/04/news/finti_poliziotti_o_carabinieri_derubavano_gli_anziani_ecco_la_refurtiva_venite_a_riconoscerla-13833366/
https://teleromagna.it/it/cronaca/2024/1/27/forli-tentano-la-truffa-dei-finti-poliziotti-due-arresti
https://www.milanotoday.it/cronaca/arrestati-finti-poliziotti-20-novembre-2012.html
https://www.romatoday.it/cronaca/rapina-falsi-poliziotti-infernetto.html

Elizabeth, you are correct on how much a little patience, diplomacy, respect and humor can help. If you are suspicious then taking the matter up with someone who was clearly an official would have straightened things out.

Sometimes you get what you're looking for. I'm reminded of the citizen of a small town who was approached by a couple who were thinking of moving there. He asked about the folks where they currently lived. They said they were unfriendly, they didn't like them and were trying to move away. They were told that the folks in the town were the same and they should look elsewhere.

The same man was approached later in the day by another couple who said circumstances meant they needed to move to this town. He asked them about the town where they lived and they couldn't say enough nice things and how they hated they needed to move. He told them they were in luck, the towns was full of wonderful people and they'd be welcomed with open arms.

When we travel, we expect to have wonderful experiences and meet great people. In over 50 years of travel, we've not been disappointed.

Only the article on Il Messaggero and the last one on Roma Today could potentially be the same episode, since are dated in the same day and both newspapers are based in Rome, but all others I posted are episodes in different areas of the country and/or dates that are months or years apart.

They might still be rare episodes in the context of millions of police encounters incurring every year in Italy, but we can’t say that is unfathomable to have scammers posing as some kind of official to scam foreign tourists. I’ve witnessed similar scamming attempts in Monterosso myself years ago, where people were trying to extort money from foreign tourists on the beach because they said they had not paid the admission ticket to walk along the beach. When I intervened speaking to them in Italian threatening to call the Carabinieri, they responded “ma dai, fatti i cazzi tua, che dobbiamo campà pure noi” (Mind your own business that we also need to survive). When I pulled the cell phone and started calling the Carabinieri they walked away, obviously after telling me several “vaff…” epithets on their way. As far as I’m concerned the Cinque Terre nowadays are way worse than Naples when it comes to risk of being scammed or pickpocketed. I would feel safer at Scampia (one of the most dangerous inner city neighborhoods in Naples) than on the train in Vernazza.

Mr É, it sounded like Doug thought this thread wasn't started by the same person as the one he was referring to.. Yes, I'm aware that we can change our posting names.

Mr É, it sounded like Doug thought this thread wasn't started by the same person as the one he was referring to.. Yes, I'm aware that we can change our posting names.

That's true. I thought their old account might have been deleted and they just created a new account.

I was unaware of that feature. I think I'll change my signon to "Spartacus".

Webmaster, it would be very interesting to hear what you think about the advice and insights which have now been given and shared. If any of them conflict with your views, as expressed above, have you then modified them? Would you like to add anything? What are your conclusions?

I was unaware of that feature. I think I'll change my signon to
"Spartacus".

I love it! :O)

Webmaster, it would be very interesting to hear what you think about
the advice and insights which have now been given and shared. If any
of them conflict with your views, as expressed above, have you then
modified them? Would you like to add anything? What are your
conclusions?

Respectfully, this is not my role. I'm not here to weigh in as it would easily be perceived as an official opinion of the company, perhaps one that somehow overrides the opinions of others here. The moderator's role is primarily to address behavior, not content, to avoid arguments which detract from the purpose of this forum. My initial post in this thread sought to get ahead of some issues I expected given the nature of the experience. Rare exceptions to moderating behavior include when advice given can cause harm or YMYL scenarios for those familiar with that acronym (too complicated to explain here). This thread also applies, hence my first post.

Unfortunately, a few replies aren't sticking to what I had asked, and it is causing considerable additional moderation time. I've made a few changes to keep the tone more copacetic. I am closing the thread.