Another twist to receiving an Italian traffic ticket

This is geared to drivers with an Italian license. Hopefully one of the native Italians who posts here regularly--Roberto, Dario-- will come by and be able to tell you how to proceed so you can avoid yet another fine. I have never heard of this in the trailing ticket.

Yet another brick in the "never rent a car in Italy" wall. I have received 3-4 speeding tickets from France mostly over the years. Never a point against my license, so that is new to me. But Italy and France are not the same.

You can't even remember how many tickets you received? Maybe it's time to connect the dots, man

I don't think that's unusual. I've been driving for 50+ years and have gotten a few speeding tickets over the years, but do not remember how many. I barely remember what I did yesterday. :)

You can't even remember how many tickets you received abroad?

Am I clear now?

You can ignore it or make them happy, it makes no difference

So, Dario, if he ignores it, he won't receive the threatened 291,00 € fine? And is it possible that the fine the OP thought he paid was the fee for the rental company to inform the authorities where to find him and not the fine itself? I thought it was a 2-stage thing: fee to the rental company, and then the fine itself. Or am I hallucinating? Or did you pay both, Glenn?

I love Italian trains. There's a reason for that. Just sayin'.

Thanks to everyone that posted helpful and pertinent replies.

WRT voluntarily providing the Italian authorities personal data, here is a sampling of additional language from the violation letter:

"the violation also entails the deduction of 3 points...the effective driver must communicate the personal data and driving license number..."

"we warn you if the data are not provided, you will be subject to the administrative sanction and to the payment of 291,00 €"

I'm cautious of providing personal data to anyone, especially entities outside the US. If the request is legit, and my data is kept secure, I have no problem providing the info. I also would like to avoid an additional ~$300 fine.

Please advise.

No, I have no idea how many tickets I have received. I don't spend a lot of cognitive resource keeping track of tickets from 10 years ago that I paid 10 years ago. If people do have a clear idea how many tickets they got 10 years ago, they are clearly wasting time on completely silly things.

Kathy, good question

Fine was not paid to the rental company.

To the OP:

I would call the Italian Consulate and ask about this. Scams do come up.

so that 3 points can be assessed against my driver's license

How exactly do you suppose the Italian authorities will asses your US drivers license? (Assuming you are US)

When money and collection-nagging are at stake, it's best to get this cleared up. It wouldn't affect your driving again in Italy, but their computer could send this over to some US collection agency.

Dario says to forget about it. But, I'd make a copy of the letter and simply write on it that you live in the US and drive with a US license. Send it registered to the same address. I wouldn't give all the info, maybe a photocopy of the license at he most. Black out whatever you don't want shared.

I've seen this done in France for other situations.

We've had two tickets sent from France, using our US licenses. No fine or points deductions were mentioned. And France does use the points system, too. This is a little screw up on their part, but you don't want their computer to take over.

The side discussion about number of speeding tickets is really a moot point here. People who regularly speed, whether in the US or abroad, don't feel that they are doing anything wrong and no amount of chastisement will make a difference.

I do understand why people feel somewhat offended that guests would come to into their country, ignore the laws, and then feel "wronged" about getting a ticket. I am not saying that this was the position of the OP who paid the fine without question. I am saying that we see enough of those other types of posts that it probably pushes some buttons when the subject comes up again.

glenn your data will be stored together with all the other italians' data for 4 years. If you are fined for speeding in Italy 6 times more in the next 4 years, they can prevent you from driving in Italy for 2 years. All this stuff is meant for foreigners (i.e. the Swiss and truck drivers from Eastern Europe) who routinely drive in Italy and keep on ignoring fines and points, not for somebody who drove once in a lifetime while on vacation. It's all very silly.

I doubt they can force you to pay that 2nd fine, to tell the truth I doubt it's legal in your case. Nevertheless, nothing bad can happen if you send those data. I wouldn't send a copy of my driving license, even if it's not an ID in Italy... I wouldn't.

PS Since I remember all my vacations in other countries by car, I would remember if I were fined "3 or 4 times" for speeding overseas. I haven't received so many fines for speeding in my own country, it's actually strange and strange things should stick.

That's for Italians or maybe Eu drivers. They can't take point away from your US license. If you paid the fine you've done more than enough. Most foreigners, especially those from outside the EU, don't even bother with that and nothing happens. They can't enforce a fine in a US court, and even if they sell the debt to an international collection agency, all the agency can do is send you a letter asking you to pay. However debts incurred for traffic violations cannot be reported to the Credit Bureaus (Equifax, Esperian, Transunion), therefore it doesn't affect your credit score.

https://accountcontrol.com/News-Resources/Unpaid-Tickets-Traffic-Violations-Are-No-Longer-Reportable#:~:text=Due%20to%20new%20regulations%2C%20government,fines%20reported%20to%20the%20bureaus.

Did you see a charge from the car rental company? They would be asked to provide your info so that the authorities can send their demand letter and generally / always bill you for this work +/-$40. Did you read the demand letter carefully including their contact info which generally includes and email address. It takes time to work through their system and there are a number of time limits for you and them.
I’ve disputed 2 tickets for going into restricted zones in Italy during 2 trips over about 7 years and not had to pay but speeding tickets are a different problem. I still had to pay the rental car company’s charge.
I use cruise control extensively as going with the flow will often see you or me exceeding the posted speed limits in Italy, France & Sweden. Good luck.

They can't take point away from your US license.

But they can record the number of points you have been taken away in Italy because of Italian fines. If you have time you can translate it for future readers, I'm done with this silly law:

Applicazione della patente a punti ai conducenti stranieri
Secondo le disposizioni dell’art. 6-ter della legge di conversione del D. L. 151/2003, la decurtazione del punteggio avviene anche nei confronti dei conducenti stranieri. Infatti, i conducenti muniti di patente rilasciata da uno Stato estero nel quale non vige il meccanismo della patente a punti, subiscono decurtazioni per le violazioni commesse in Italia, secondo le norme della patente a punti italiana.

I punteggi sono registrati in una speciale sezione dell’anagrafe dei conducenti tenuta dal D.T.T.S.I.S con le medesime modalità previste dall’art. 126bis C.d.S. per l’analogo procedimento valevole per le patenti italiane o per quelle equiparate.

Esaurito il punteggio disponibile, tuttavia, non si applica la revisione della patente di guida ma viene disposto un provvedimento interdittivo della circolazione.

It's obviously aimed at foreign professional drivers, not at some guy on vacation who'll never be back.

I’ve disputed 2 tickets

How? By Registered mail? Written in Italian? In Court or by the Prefect? I am just curious, I had never heard about anyone who had successfully disputed a ZTL fine and you did it twice.

Application of the points license to foreign drivers
According to the provisions of art. 6-ter of the conversion law of Legislative Decree 151/2003, the point deduction also takes place against foreign drivers. In fact, drivers with a license issued by a foreign state in which the mechanism of the points license is not in force, undergo deductions for violations committed in Italy, according to the rules of the Italian points license.
The points to be deducted are recorded in a special section of the drivers' registry held by the D.T.T.S.I.S in the same manner provided for by art. 126bis C.d.S. for the similar procedure valid for Italian or equivalent licenses.
Once the available (20) points have been used up, however, the revocation of the driving license is not applied but a provision prohibiting the circulation in the Italian territory is ordered.

I know it's intended for the truck drivers from other European countries. One more reason not to bother with the request from the Italian authorities.

"Points" for US State driver's licenses? What are these "points" you speak of?

I've only heard of this -- having some allowance of "points" which, once exhausted, invalidates your license for something -- in (bad) science fiction movies depicting a dystopian future. It seems that "points" are really a thing in Italy for punishing the Swiss and Eastern Europeans who ignore fines (maybe our dystopian future is...Italy? One can only hope...). But in my state (there are no "US Drivers Licenses", we have state licenses...), I'm not aware of any "points" system. If Italy wants to punish me by assessing "points", I say "Ti benedica, amico mio."

I've been driving since before seat belts were required. I remember every single ticket I've ever received, both at home and abroad. In fact every single time I have been stopped by a police officer while driving.

Abroad: one cop in Spain (who looked just like Fidel Castro) -- the only time I've ever received a ticket overseas. One cop in Mexico (who had a gold tooth and told me he was just curious about what these gringos were doing in his little town, I think he actually just wanted to check out my girlfriend) - no ticket. One cop in Japan (who stepped out from behind a bush and waved a flag to stop me, and who was as friendly and polite as anyone ever could be) - no ticket. Maybe I'm just lucky.

If you have so many encounters with police that you can't remember them, I think you may be doing something wrong.

@ David:

Italy has a point system that was introduced with the new Vehicle Code in 2003 (I guess 19 years new now).

Basically you are awarded 20 points to start. For every moving violation they deduct a number of points commensurate with the gravity of the infraction. When you run out of points, they suspend your license for some number of days/months, or forever in some cases (in which case you need to reapply). If you stay several years with no violations, I think they award you some points to add to your point balance.

When we say US license, we don't mean some kind of US Federal Drivers' license (everyone in this forum, especially those of us who live in the USA, knows they are licenses issued by the States and not the US Government), it is meant to mean a license issued by a US State.

By the way, there is also at least one US Driver's license issued by the Federal Government that I know of. It's reserved for the members of the Diplomatic Corps and is issued by the Dept. of State OFM (Office of Foreign Missions).

As a first time poster, I am grateful for all the assistance and responses I have received from members of this forum.

Since I have paid the fine, my remaining concern is not with the points, but the possibility of providing a foreign entity (or any entity, foreign or domestic) personal identifiable information that could possibly used for evil intent (fraud, scams). From the rental car company, they already have my name and address. I'm OK with that.

The form asked for DOB, Place of Birth, County, Telephone number and State Driver's license number. I get the need to verify who I am, but the info requested seems a little excessive.

France uses the points system too.
@David: It's not aimed at foreign truck drivers, no trapping unaware Eastern European, Turkish, and North African drivers. Plenty of French (and Italians I suppose) loose points and eventually their licenses for a period of time. Drunk driving, speeding, etc. The gendarmes like to set up roadblocks on Fridays after work and Sunday afternoons when people have had more than a few with family and friends. If the alcohol level in the balloon is too high, there go a few points. Statistically, all these measures have worked to reduce deaths, even if you still see a lot of high-speed, tailgating driving.

No, it doesn't exist in the US.

Edit to answer Glenn: Agreed, just keep it simple that you live in the US, are a tourist, and drive with a US license.

https://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/atto/corte_costituzionale/caricaDettaglioAtto/originario?atto.dataPubblicazioneGazzetta=2017-01-18&atto.codiceRedazionale=T-170012

My Italian is nil but using google translate it seems to say that they can fine you for not providing personal information at the time of the infraction, but not after.

It is the other way round. The current law was submitted to the constitutional court (think it as the Italian version of the supreme court, they can void laws); but the court refused to consider the complaint.

By the way, there is also at least one US Driver's license issued by the Federal Government that I know of. It's reserved for the members of the Diplomatic Corps and is issued by the Dept. of State OFM (Office of Foreign Missions).

@ Roberto - You are correct, there are several "federal" licenses, I've seen a few (I once had a job cashing checks, so saw a lot of IDs). There are multiple federal licenses (even car license plates - ever seen one from a Native American indian tribe? Military or security agency like the NSA or USMC?) They exist, but most distant bureaucracies typically won't know what to do with them...heck, even "unexpected" facets of your NAME can completely throw off bureaucracies: my wife has no middle name, this causes all kinds of problems in many systems hard-coded to expect something...on her Washington state drivers license, the middle name has an asterisk to represent "none", other systems for banking, and a hundred other things, all fail when they see that. The world depends on millions of independent systems hard-coded for their own needs, and when exchanging information, they often just can not cope with unexpected variations.

Point being, virtually everyone here (from North America) has a state/provincial license. Those states/provinces would ignore some request to deduct "points" that came from Italy. Imagine how the Italian bureaucracy would react if they received some oddball request from, say, the sate of Alabama (or, the Navajo Nation), to add some cryptic message to an Italian citizen's drivers license (I'm quite sure it would be ignored because it doesn't "fit" any known system).

@glenn - If some Italian drivers license form asked me for my DOB, birthplace and phone number, I'd either leave those fields blank or enter nonsense. They are not going to waste time verifying or validating those details -- imagine the Italian civil worker trying to find "Fubar, Texas" or dialing 888-555-1212 trying to reach you...not gonna happen.

TSA office is in my office building a few floors below me. Plenty US Gov't license plates in the vehicles in the parking lot. Maybe I should ask them if they also have a special drivers' license to drive to the airport.
Regarding the OP request, I have to deal with Italian bureaucracy enough to know that Italian civil servants won't give a hoot about collecting that info (or even the money) from someone in North America. I took them 3 years to figure out I forgot to pay the city taxes for 2019 for my mother's place. In an article years ago I read that only about 40% of traffic fines are paid by the Italians every year. The city of Catania (Sicily) collects only 5% of the total. I think they have enough to do to collect from their own citizens before they bother visitors from across the Ocean.

A opposite similar system of points exists in the UK as Bets described in France.

Get caught speeding, drinking, drugs, and various other offences, and here come points. Get caught twice, significantly more points on. Receive enough and out the window goes the licence and you will be banned from driving for a period of time decided by the court. Getting it back means a new application and test.

It's not aimed at foreign truck drivers, no trapping unaware Eastern European, Turkish, and North African drivers.

For God's sake, nobody said that the whole point system is aimed at foreign truck drivers!

Roberto and me were trying to explain why they want those data from a foreigner with a non Italian driving license!

If Roberto could waste his time to translate the article of the law, you could waste two minutes to read it: that single article is obviously aimed at foreign professional drivers .

[/swearing]

I read that only about 40% of traffic fines are paid by the Italians every year.

Et tu Roberto??? 40% of traffic fines are paid by the Italians every year are paid within 60 days.

I was responding to this from David and have add @David. Here's what he wrote:

*It seems that "points" are really a thing in Italy for punishing the Swiss and Eastern Europeans who ignore fines (maybe our dystopian future is...Italy? *

You mean that David was serious? I thought he was joking
I'm sorry.

The points system is used in Germany, France, UK and Spain.

So far, dear Dario, I don't belong to the stats of those who did not pay fines. So far I haven't received any from any Italian city, at least not since I moved Stateside. The only ticket I got in the US, I paid (over 30 years ago). I generally speed but I've been lucky and cameras are not used here (just for red lights at the 'semafori', but even then they need to identify the face of the driver, not just the license plate).
If I got a ticket in Italy I don't know what I will do. I do go to Italy and rent cars every year, and also have property there, so they might get me somehow, although I doubt that too.