Am I Crazy? 11-Nights in Italy

Varenna is not a day trip from Venice. It is a 4 1/2 journey by train in each direction. As beautiful as Varenna is, don’t do it! If you want to take a day trip from Venice, choose Padova or Verona. Five days in Florence is fantastic. Pisa, Lucca, the CT, San Gimignano are all doable. But between some of those places and the treasures of the city of Florence, don’t take waste a day on a trip to Rome since you’ll be going there any way and there’s so much to absorb in the Eternal City.

The Amalfi Coast and the CT are gorgeous but settle on one or the other. I wouldn’t do both. In fact in the time you have, I, personally, wouldn’t do either. You’re cramming a lot into this trip so you shouldn’t do it all if you “...want time to slow down, relax, and enjoy the ambiance of wherever we are” You have to cut down some of your day trips. Car rental can be a hassle and the rail system in Italy is convenient and reasonably priced. Remember you’re on vacation, not participating in “The Great Race.” Savor il dolce far niente.

Phillip, thanks so much for the suggestions. I really appreciate it and will consider it wholeheartedly. I shoot photography (not for a living but I'm pretty serious about my hobbies; hard for me to go half-way on anything). This said, I'd hate to miss both Varenna and the CT, though I wasn't aware the trip from Venice was so long to Varenna (thanks for pointing that out). I think I'll have to rule that out until the next visit. Granted, I'd love to get pizza in Naples and then head down to the Amalfi Coast but it just seems too far south given our time limitations. Thanks again. Much appreciated.

Personally, I'd save the Amalfi for another trip. By road it's 3.5 hours (optimistically) just to get to Positano. So 7 hours minimum of just sitting in a bus or van. And you'll be looking at sunset times of around 7 pm. So your return trip will be mostly in the dark.

Yes, we want to see a lot but we also want time to slow down, relax,
and enjoy the ambiance of wherever we are.

Your original plan leaves no time to do any slowing down and enjoying the ambiance. I'd recommend not planning the Varenna side trip in advance. Wait and see if you've really seen and done everything that Venice has to offer first. Capturng Venice at twilight and night is special too.

Same thing with Florence. 5 nights would be great. Pisa/Lucca are easy day trips on the same day (by train). CT is technically doable as a day trip by train, but is a very long day and leaves you little time to see each town. Again, don't forget how early sunset will be. Sienna is easy to do as a day trip by bus. And wineries are best toured by a day tour ,IMO. (after all, if you're sampling all that wine, you shouldn't be driving). But I wouldn't try to do all of these on this trip- you aren't leaving any time to actually get to know Florence! And if you want to experience a great sunset and twilight, nothing beats the views at that time of day from Piazzale Michealangelo or the Church of San Miniato

This is your vacation, so you should do what yo want to do, but since you asked for opinions...

I know that extra free night is really tempting, but I don't think it's worth a day trip to Rome that is 90-100 minutes each way (plus time for getting to train stations). Those 4 hours of a US American's valuable vacation time (to me) just aren't worth a free night. I would encourage you to skip the free night and have an extra day in Rome, if that's what you really want to see.

There are a couple of fairly long-distance day trips in your itinerary (Cinque Terra from Florence; Amalfi Coast from Rome). When I did a 3-week trip to Italy a few years ago, I started with both CT and Amalfi Coast on my itinerary, but scrapped one (Cinque Terre) due to them both being coastal Italy places (though, granted, with their own unique charm). I don't think there will be much of an opportunity to "slow down, relax, and enjoy the ambiance" of either place with a day trip, but if you really want to see Italy's coastline, then I would encourage to think about picking 1 of the 2, so that you have more time to enjoy the ambiance of your base cities (and spend less time enjoying the ambiance of the inside of trains).

Thank you very much, CJean and Dave. I'm started to notice a recurring theme and think I need to pare down our excursions. Really appreciate the suggestions. CJean, yes, I'm with you 100% on driving after visiting the wineries. Might be a good philosophy for me to employ the entire trip since I'm sure the wine will be flowing wherever we are.

My wife is less interested in museums and historical sites than I am. She's more interested in relaxing, wine, and beaches. With this in mind (and, yes, I know this is a tough question to answer since you don't know her), is there enough for her to enjoy in Florence that doesn't involve museums?

IMHO there are multiple significant mistakes in your plan, several already pointed out above so I won't repeat those explicitly. That said...

It's always nice to get a "free night" or some other deal from your stash of points/miles - I like that too. But it's extremely foolish, IMHO, to let that drive your travel plans. If taking advantage of something like that fits into your plans well, great, but many people playing the points game (IME almost everyone who thinks of that as one of their "hobbies") become obsessed in "maximizing their value" and other nonsense, losing sight of the whole reason for going: you don't go somewhere to get a free night (well, some people do, but they're complete idiots); you go somewhere to experience a special place - and for many of us, you don't get to go back (at least not often). Don't make significant changes to your travel plans to take advantage of some deal. Make your plans for what you want to do and see, not where you can score a free night or other goodie. Unless you think you'll be going back to this area frequently, then it's no biggie. But with all the places in the world that I want to go, I treat most trips as if it'll probably be my one time to go there (yes, I do also balance that with the "I shall return" philosophy, but honesty, life is short, the world is big, and I only have so much free time to travel....so I try to make smart choices on every trip). Reading your plan, many things sound "forced" (by your hope to score an extra free night) and artificially manipulated. On a short trip with not enough time, you are trying to do multiple "day trips" which would involve spending half of that day (or more) coming and going. Those places are worth seeing, and enjoying an evening there, not just dropping in for a few hours mid-day. That's not smart. Spending a "day trip" in Rome just so you can keep a free night in a hotel? Very, very misguided priorities.

Ask yourself this: which is your most constrained commodity - money or time?

For almost everyone, I'd argue that it's time. Yeah, we all have budgets and need to calibrate our spending. But most of us can find extra money. Few can somehow generate more time.

I like staying in a nice hotel using points as much as anyone else (setting aside for the moment the whole question of which experience is better: staying in a worldwide chain resort hotel for "free" versus paying for a cool little place in the old center...another thing to consider). But I don't care how great a "deal" is if it means I'm going to have to turn my plans into a logical pretzel to take advantage of it.

OK, off the soapbox.

A couple other minor points...

Forget "pizza in Naples". There's great pizza all over the world. There's really awful pizza all over the world, including in Naples. OK if you're there anyway, maybe you might enjoy some pizza (although you could just as easily be disappointed) but I can only shake my head and wince when I see people give that as a reason to go to Naples. The Amalfi Coast/Pompei and Sorrento make a very nice sidetrip, but unless you have oodles of time to burn (and you don't) any time spent in Naples seems like a really poor choice.

As others point out above, your trip looks to be the opposite of your stated goal of wanting to "slow down, relax, and enjoy the ambiance of wherever we are." First suggestion is to toss out your plan to stay in Florence for 5 nights - that's crazy and waaaay too long if you are trying to cover a lot of Italy. Start over. Figure out your top priorities, make a plan, and adjust that to maximize your enjoyment, not to efficiently use your hotel points.

I know that's not what you want to hear. Sorry. Hope this is useful for some perspective.

David,

Appreciate the response but, unfortunately, considering it's based on a person planning their travel while maximizing their points, well, the entire argument is inapplicable. Perhaps it was due my poor writing. Whatever the case, I don't plan my travel based on maximizing points. I travel weekly all over North America for a living (in fact, was in Tacoma not long ago). I accumulate and use points regularly, so it's a non-factor for me. However, if I can stay one more night for free somewhere and then use that as a home base for an excursion, I'd be a fool for just throwing money away. I'm a Finance guy. I may have a different financial perspective than some. An early morning 1.5 hour train trip and then returning another 1.5 hours later in the evening doesn't sound horrible at all. But if it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense. I agree with you in that planning based on points is foolish unless that's the only way a person is able to travel. I have absolutely no problem foregoing the free night if it makes more sense to do something else. This is what I'm trying to learn on this forum.

Agreed I need to plan my trip. That's what I'm doing. That's why I posted in the first place. Thanks for the input.

One more point: I, too am a serious photo shooter (not pro, but it's one of the important reasons I travel).

Something to consider: Lots of Europe is very crowded with tourists (even in September/October). If you haven't been to Europe in the past few years, you may be shocked to discover how crowded many places are. You want photos that are not filled with tourist crowds? You are going to need to work hard for that. In many places, that's simply impossible. In most places, getting a decent photo without mobs of idiots waving selfie sticks may require you being there very early or late in the day (and some places can't be fixed even with that trick). I try to plan my trips around this sad fact.

Virtually every place you mention in your post could easily be swamped with crowds most times. If you want photos without crowds, you need to factor that into your plans. Even if your shots don't require that, you should be aware of the serious overcrowding you will experience in many places and keep that in mind (hint: "day trips" where you arrive between 10 am and 2 pm - along with what seems like all the rest of humanity - ensure you have the worst possible experience; invert that - by being there in the early morning or late afternoon, avoiding the mid-day "day tripper hours" - generally gives you the best chance to enjoy famous/popular places).

Good luck.

Makes perfect sense. I'll probably shoot the golden and blue hours (early mornings and late afternoon), as well as night photography, and will use long shutter speeds to remove the moving hoards of people. During the day, with the wife, I'll be more focused on handheld candids and such (except when we climb those bell towers, at which time I'll shoot wide-angle on tripod). Good points and I'll definitely observe them. We were last in Europe 3 years ago when we went to Amsterdam and Paris.

Are there any issues using tripods in the metropolitan areas? What about monopods?

I've seen a trend worldwide in recent years restricting the use of tripods in some places. Sometimes they just ding your for a fee to use a tripod, occasionally it's just prohibited. Those places typically are the most-visited religious sites and art museums, but not always. Of course, the rules are not always enforced consistently (that's putting it mildly). And of course, flash is verboten in many indoor sites (virtually all art museums, some churches). Of course, I see flashes firing off regularly in those places. I've never seen an explicit line item for monopods - probably a grey area subject to lots of interpretation.

You may find some bell towers to be problematic for tripods (unless you have one that folds down very small). The stairs up/down can be extremely tight (eg a 3 foot diameter, which includes the center column and two-way traffic). Usually the stairs get increasingly narrow the higher you go. It can be difficult enough just to get people up/down the stairs (for me, at times very challenging with just a M4/3 DSLR and small day pack). If your tripod is big, it could really complicate the ascent/decent. Very compact might be OK if you can hug it very close.

The sign I'm now seeing more and more is: "No drones, selfie sticks, or tripods". And of course I've seen all of those prohibitions ignored.

My husband and I are also not huge museum people (well, especially art), and Florence wasn't originally even in the plan when I started researching our recent October trip to Italy because of that. Ended up being the longest stop (4 nights), with a day trip to Siena. What convinced me to go was when I started reading about so many other interesting things to see and do in Florence other than the Uffizi and Accademia (we did see David on a Walks of Italy tour, but not the Uffizi and no regrets). The other thing I liked about Florence was the potential for different great day trips if for some reason we didn't enjoy Florence. And those can be skipped if where you are holds your interest - and Florence did. We didn't get to see everything I'd researched, but as you write, we also wanted to savor and enjoy what we 'were' seeing so didn't rush. Have fun with your planning!

Chris, David makes some really good points. While tripods and monopods may be OK outside, they've become all but universally banned at museums and other indoor attractions, as has flash. Those monopods/tripods would also be a problem in very crowded areas. Early mornings? You should be fine but late afternoons are still really, really busy in a lot of spots. It's going to be a challenge to find a place without " the moving hoards of people" although it certainly can be done.

First suggestion is to toss out your plan to stay in Florence for 5
nights - that's crazy and waaaay too long if you are trying to cover a
lot of Italy.

Here's where i'll disagree. We spent 5 nights in Florence with zero problem running out of things to see (and shoot). That said, it is too long if you're trying to fit a bunch more in - which kills the "relaxing" goal of the trip, and the more time you can spend in a place, the more opportunities you'll have for your lens to capture something special.

Question... have you already bought your airline tickets? How locked into this schedule are you? If your wife really likes beaches, I think it would be awesome if you can incorporate a little Italy coastline in your trip. If you have an extra day in Italy, you could do Venice (3 days) --> Florence (3 days) --> Amalfi Coast (3 days) --> Rome (3 days).

If you're locked into what you already have... Florence is definitely church/history/museum heavy, but I think you could swing 4 days (5 nights) there with...
1. A wine tasting tour through the Chianti Region is great
2. A day trip to Sienna
3. A day to wander Florence
4. A day trip to another town in the area (Pisa has a leaning tower but not much else)

I do think, though, that if you can find a way to get your wife to the beach, it might turn a great trip into a super special trip. If Poland is on your radar for some day, I would suggest skipping Dachau (unless you have a particular reason to see it) and visiting Auschwitz when in Poland.

We spent 5 nights in Florence with zero problem running out of things to see (and shoot)...the more opportunities you'll have for your lens to capture something special.

No disagreement there. I'm sure a month in Florence would be easy to enjoy and you would never run out of great photo opportunities. I just meant that 5 days there was too long to linger on a short trip where the goal was to include a long list of other worthwhile places.

Time is generally the commodity that is most constrained for all of us. We just need longer/more frequent vacations.

Question... have you already bought your airline tickets? How locked into this schedule are you? If your wife really likes beaches, I think it would be awesome if you can incorporate a little Italy coastline in your trip.

Trip appears to be "October-ish" (perhaps mid/late September - OP mentions attending the opening ceremonies for Octoberfest before moving on to Italy). The beach experience might not be what one dreams of (maybe not quite warm enough?) and IME for many North Americans, their dream beach looks a lot more like Tahiti or even Florida than most beaches they're likely to experience in Italy, so I always advise doing some research and calibrating beach expectations carefully. Yes, there are beautiful beaches in Italy (I was at some not too long ago) but those are not always what casual tourists experience on a quick trip (in October). Many times you get cooler weather and pebbles, not broad swaths of uncrowded white sand. Depends on tastes and external factors/variables, of course, but is not a reliable slam-dunk for many.

My suggestion, if airplane tickets haven't yet been bought, would be to shrink the part of Italy you're trying to cover. Yes, people rush through Venice-Florence-Rome in 9 nights and you have 11, but you've expressed an interest in slowing down, and--possibly even more important--you have a serious interest in photography. I'd suggest not going south of Florence on this trip.

Do you like to see an hour and a half of 90 second previews or one nice movie, even if it means you'll have to wait until later to see other features?

Stay in Florence for 5 nights. Don't rent a car, it will be a hindrance. Look into what harvest festivals will be held while you are there. For instance, Greve holds a harvest festival every Fall. Take the 40 minute bus ride, enjoy as much wine as you like, then catch the bus back to Florence.

In addition to taking a day tour of Tuscany, loosely schedule a trip to either Siena or Lucca. Either are close enough to do as a long day trip with enough time at the destination to enjoy it.

Three nights in Rome probably means two days. Stay in Rome.

I was a full time professional photographer for over 20 years before changing to a more lucrative career. There's a wealth of opportunities in Florence, especially for slice of life and street photos. I'd rather have some time to explore a city more fully than rushing around willy-nilly to add another post card cliché to my collection. BTW, I used to haul around 22 pounds worth of DSLR equipment when traveling in Europe. For our last trip, I bought a mirrorless kit. I analyzed my lens usage and decided I could capture 90% of what I normally take with just three lenses instead of six. It was liberating and my photos are as good as the ones I captured with the heavy full frame DSLR.

You guys are awesome. Thank you so much to everyone who has replied. You've given me wonderful suggestions and it's pretty apparent we need to save a few planned stops for another visit. So happy I posted here. I knew my fellow Rick Steeves disciples would come through!

debbiedennison: (I was in Mount Airy for 3-months last year). Perfect. Really appreciate it. This helps tremendously!

Kathy & David: I appreciate the info on the tripods. I was told pretty much the same when I was in Amsterdam and Paris but had little trouble using the tripod when I wanted to. Of course, I wasn't allowed to take the tripod out of the bag when in museums. That was OK. I didn't need them in there. We were allowed to take monopods in some museums. Same in NY and Chicago museums. I suspect it's much the same in Italy. Kathy, would you stay 5-nights if you had to do it again?

Dave: Great ideas! Love them both. Our flights to and fro are booked. We arrive in Munich on Thursday, September 20 and return from Rome on Friday, October 5. Our Munich hotel is booked and we check-out on Monday, September 24. Everything else still is up for grabs. Want to maximize the experience as much as possible so pretty open on plans. Would like to get hotels booked in the next week or two, if possible, just to put that behind me. Agreed about the beach, but we go to beaches all the time. We've been to a handful of tropical climes so this is the only thing giving me pause about making it necessary in Italy. I would like to see the Mediterranean while we're there, though. Agreed, David, about our idea of dream beaches!

acraven: Much appreciated. The only problem is that we fly out of Rome. Doesn't mean we necessarily need to spend 4 or 5 nights there but kind of convolutes things. If we did stay Florence-northward, would you go to Cinque Terra and/or Varenna?

DougMac: I get your point. Nicely put. I like to savor, frankly, and I'm kind of an art buff so I know I'd have fun all the while in Florence. I've wanted to go for quite some time. I'm just trying to consider the wife, but if there are plenty of things she'd enjoy, I know she'd rather move about slowly than keep up with my typical frantic pace. I love the idea about Florence and she wouldn't have any problem with that at all.

I'm carrying 3 lenses on this trip: 2 primes (20mm and 50mm) and a heavy 20-700 2.8 VR. I use a spider holster setup so the camera sits on my hip. I'll carry a camera backpack and it will have the necessary accessories: cleaning kit, a few Lee filters, batteries, extra SD cards, tabletop and gorilla tripods (which I use when I'm not allowed to bring full-size tripods into a venue), and cable releases. I'm always looking to reduce my load but have to step up to the Nikon D810 before I think about mirrorless, unfortunately, but it's an avenue I want to explore.

I'll shoot primarily long-exposure night photography most of the time. Thanks a bunch for your suggestions.

Kathy, would you stay 5-nights if you had to do it again?

David, I assume you mean Florence? If so, yes, no question. We dearly loved Florence but my interests may not be the same as yours? I found the Renaissance art and architecture enthralling. LOL, did a number on my Canon's memory cards! I probably wouldn't have felt the same if I'd had to do it on a tighter timeline.

Just for fun, this shot that I took from a window of the Uffizi was used by permission on the front page of our paper's travel section:

http://www.startribune.com/family-of-five-takes-on-florence/260315691/

(No, that wasn't my family the article was about; they just used the shot.)

Chris, I understand now about the flight situation. Rome is a great city.

If you're asking which I would opt for, Varenna or the Cinque Terre, that's very hard to answer. I don't have a sound basis for coming up with an answer for myself, much less for you. I've seen some very nice spots around the Italian lakes but haven't been to Varenna itself. I've been to the Cinque Terre three times and found the area charming, but all my trips occurred prior to the influx of tourist hordes. I do not have a photographer's eye, so take this with a grain of salt: I think I'd probably base the decision on what the cruise-ship load was scheduled to be in the Cinque Terre, assuming I didn't plan to do a bunch of heavy-duty hiking up high (two of the four lower-level paths being closed at the moment). Lots of large cruise ships into La Spezia? Go to Varenna. A quiet time, cruise-wise? Choose Cinque Terre. But there are many other considerations one might take into account.

If Venice, Florence and Rome are definite, I don't think I'd try to add either the lakes or the Cinque Terre on this trip. Too many more convenient possibilities.

Since you're a photographer, take a close look at these 2 day trips.

Viareggio, by train 1 1/2 hrs from Florence. a cute liberty era beach town, nice prommade, good restaurants. Combine this town with your trip to Pisa. You actually change trains in Pisa, but do Viareggio first. It's 20 min by train.
Do it in this order to catch Pisa in the late afternoon sun.

Lucca combined with Montecatini Terme. This may appeal to your wife, beautiful spa town, with some fabulous fountains. Make sure you also visit Montecatini Alta, the old town, via funicular. Fantastic views from the top here.

http://welcometuscany.it/tuscany/pistoia/montecatini-alto-high-town-funicolar-station.htm

I did not have time to read all the suggestions so sorry if I am repeating some advice... but being a professional photographer myself I think you will miss a lot by not having the freedom of renting a car and exploring Tuscany on your own....especially given that your wife wants to visit wineries, etc. There is nothing more frustrating to me than traveling somewhere by train and seeing an image I want to capture and the train won't stop for me! Also, being at the wrong place at the wrong time of day. If you can figure out a way to get in and out of Florence with a car and not being ticketed I would try to get a car, especially given the amount of camera equipment you travel with. My most memorable images are those which i did not expect. The beautiful hillside or vineyard with just perfect lighting...hanging out in a field of sunflowers waiting for sunset...There is a charming tiny town near Florence called San Donato that is a photographers dream. Florence is a busy city with a lot of energy and unless you go across the bridge and wander up to the top (I can;t remember what it's called) I do not think of Florence as a place to feel relaxed. Give me a day of driving around the countryside on my own schedule and happening upon a little town and a vineyard and that is my idea of Italy.

Kathy, That's a beautiful shot and congratulations on making the cover! I'd love to see the album if you have it posted somewhere. Thanks for sharing.

acraven: Great idea about the cruise ships! Definitely, want to avoid them at all costs. Thanks for the warning. Much appreciated.

gerri: Fantastic! Thanks so much. Love all the suggestions. The funicular is an awesome idea! Will definitely check out photo possibilities online.

Terry kathryn: Now you're speaking my language! That sounds just wonderful all the way around. And you're right about the camera load and inability to get the shots you want. Not much that's more frustrating, except maybe getting there just late enough to get rigged up and shooting. I try to reduce my load but always seem to find one more thing I can't be without. I generally use, at one point or another, everything I take. I'm certainly checking out San Donato. Thanks for the suggestion! I'd be very content, and I think my wife would too, as long as the roads were not too treacherous. If not, we always have fun on road trips, laughing when we get lost.

Lots to do and think about. I can't thank everyone enough for the suggestions. Thanks to the photographers' for the shot location suggestions! Just fantastic responses from everyone. Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you, all.

Referring to a previous post...The bridge in Florence is Ponte Vecchio into the Oltrarno neighbourhood and the photographic view point over Florence reached is Piazzale Michelangelo(long climb up the steps to it) but worth it at sunset!

douglas44: Thank you very much. Will definitely mark those spots on my map. Once I get my base locations solidified (I'm almost there thanks to the feedback received on the forum), I'll open my Photopills app to see what the moon is doing while I'm there. Maybe I'll get lucky and get one of those glorious ones positioned just so perfect for potentially a really nice shot.

Another vote for narrowing down the places you want to see and seeing them in some depth. Venice is a dream. You can easily spend a whole day on the canals and visiting Burano for photos and lunch. That was easily our best day in Venice. I can only manage the crowds for so long. I love Florence, for the art, wandering by the river, relaxing in cafes, shopping for gold and leather (that should entertain your wife), people watching. Five days seems a bit long, unless you can explore some hill towns close by. Pisa is an afternoon trip. You will not need longer than that. Three nights in Rome sound good. I would personally skip the side trip to Naples and Amalfi. There is plenty to see and do in Rome and the surrounding area. Montecassino, or Ostica Antica for example and also quaint neighbourhoods like Trastevere. If you do miss seeing something, remember, you can always save it for the next trip!

Thank you, Jackie. I appreciate the suggestions. The consensus from the Stevers was that our initial plans were too aggressive and we have since decided to scale back. In fact, our locations and hotels are set. We're now going back through all the wonderful suggestions and working on plans for day trips and such. We are staying 4 nights in Munich, flying to Venice and staying 3 nights, 5 nights in Florence (will certainly take a couple of day trips), and 4 nights in Rome. This forum, not surprisingly, has been exceptional in helping us get our primary plans set. I'll be back later, I'm sure, with more questions about specific day trips and the like. I think we're skipping Amalfi and south of Rome but will almost definitely go to the Cinque Terra at least one day.

A little too much for one trip if you want to take some time to relax. Venice, Florence and Rome will pretty much use up the time you have. Why don't you try a day trip to Siena from Florence and stop over for one night in Orvieto on the way to Rome? Also, I'd cut a night out of Venice and add it to Rome. You'll miss out on so much if you try to see so many places especially after you add in travel time. Don't worry about not seeing everything. Once you've been to Italy you'll want to go back.

Well done, Chris - good plan. I just wanted to add that Venice is magical in the early dawn, whether you're wandering back canals or along the Grand Canal, or in Piazza San Marco watching sunrise over the lagoon.