Advice on Italy Travel Plan

I count 7 different locations for sleeping. I think I would be in the majority in characterizing your plans as 'ambitious'

What is the age range of the 10 family members? What time of year is this planned for?
You do realize you will need at least 2 vehicles to move 10 people?

For how short your stays , 5 hotel rooms seems a better choice.

Welcome the forum Tom!

1. Yes

2. I’d pick 4, maybe 5 bases with 3-4 night stays and probably drop Zurich and Dolomites. Fly home from Milan. Do day trips from Florence, Venice as you like.

3. Your large group will only move as fast as your slowest member, everything will take longer

4. With 10 people I think train is your best transportation option. It will be cheaper, easier and faster. You would need at least 2 large cars with room for luggage. Leaving luggage in the car if you stop along the way is not a good idea.
   You will not need a car in any of these locations (other than Tuscany) and you really do not want one in Florence, Venice, etc. ZTLs are real, parking is an issue.

5. With short stays as you have- hotel rooms make most sense. Finding apartments that all 10 can fit with real beds and a few bathrooms might be problematic, so even if you lengthen stays I’d do hotel rooms so everyone has their own space.

Day 3: Drive from Rome via Assisi, Vol d’Orcia (Tuscany), Siena and
Montecatini to end in Florence. Rental Car/Minivan

> Day 4: Florence (major attractions)

> Day 5: Drive from Florence via Pisa, Bologna to end in Padua. Rental
Car/Minivan

Day 3- Did you plan to actually stop and visit all of these places in one day? That means probably less than an hour in each town and most of the time in the car. Slow down.

Day 4- Florence major attractions could certainly use more than 1 day- make sure this is not a Monday as museums are closed. I would base in Florence for maybe 4 nights- 2 days for Florence, 1 day trip to Siena, 1 day trip to Pisa OR Tuscany countryside with a guided bus tour.

Day 5. Again this is a lot of driving and not much time for being anywhere. Pisa needs a few hours, Bologna needs a few hours. The drive will take more hours than you expect. Super long day and if with a car- some parking issues

A one night stay means just a half day or less to visit the town you are staying in
It takes time to get checked out, to the next location, find your new lodging, get checked in and oriented and with 10 people it will all take longer (2 night stay means 1.5 days)

Suggestion
Fly in to Rome
Rome 3 nights (or 4 with day trip to Assisi)
Train to Florence
Florence 4 or 5 nights- day trips to Siena, Pisa or Tuscany
Train to Venice
Venice- 4 nights with day trip to Padua
Train to Lake Como via Milan
Lake Como 2 nights
Train to Milan
Milan 1 night- you will need to be in your departure city night before flight

Not just ambitious. Hella ambitious with a group that big. If you are going to drive, you will need 2 6 person vans or 3 4 person cars to handle 10 people plus all the luggage. And read up on the risks of leaving luggage unattended in vehicles if you want to stop off to sightsee while en route. Every driver will need an IDP in addition to their DL. Also read up on Italian speed laws, bus lanes, and especially ZTLs.
I'm not sure you'll see much of Assissi, Siena and Montecatini if you plan to do it all in one day en route to Florence. Probably better to add a couple of days in a centrally situated agriturismo and day trip to a few of these places. And Florence is seriously short changed. Add a couple more days there, and visit Pisa by train as a day trip.

Not seeing much advantage of driving to Bologna and then to Padova, when trains are frequent. Venice to Milan via Bolzano will only give you afternoon and evening, plus one morning in the Dolomites. And to me one day in Lake Como falls into the "why even bother" category, since it really needs more than one day.. I think eliminating a few places, starting with Switzerland and possibly the Dolomites, and giving those days to other places youve named would result in a more satisfying trip in the end. Fly home from Milan.

ETA I see Christine H posted while I was typing. I think we agree on most things here.

Do you really intend to stop in Assisi, Siena and Montecatini on day 3 on your way to Florence? And in Pisa and Bologna on day 5? That is not a good plan. You cannot drive in these cities without risking expensive fines for entering the ZTLs. They are now well signed. Also it is risky to leave your car parked with luggage in it. The van is s magnet for thieves.

Also I believe you need a special license to drive a van with that many people. So you need 2 cars for sure, probably 3 with the luggage. And then you have 2x the headaches listed above.

You should listen to the people advising you to use the train. And reduce the number of destinations.

Tom-

When is this trip?

You may not realize how fast and easy the trains are in Italy. They are comfortable as well and you can take a picnic lunch if you like!
The cost of 2-3 cars, tolls, gas, parking plus the risk of racking up $$$ fines that will arrive in your mailbox after you are home- is probably still a lot more than train tickets.

From Rome to Florence- 1 hr 37 min- fast train
Florence to Venice- 2 hr 15 min- fast train
Venice to Milan- 2hr 27 min- fast train
Milan to Varenna(Lake Como) about 1 hr- regional train

Play around on the Trenitalia site- if your trip is far enough out you can get some good discounts by purchasing in advance.
The schedule is only up thru Dec 12 now but you can still search for prices/schedules if trip is next year? Just use same day of week- the schedules don't change much.

https://www.trenitalia.com/content/tcom/en.html
Download the Trenitalia app- easy to use

There is also ItaloTreno which runs fast trains only, also has an app
https://www.italotreno.it/en
Sign up for their newsletter to get discount codes

The stations you want are:
Roma Termini
Firenze SM Novella
Venezia S Lucia
Milano Centrale
Varenna-Esino

Useful info here:
https://www.seat61.com/train-travel-in-italy.htm

Jose32F, ChristineH, CJean:

Sincere thanks for your kind reply. Now that you have opened my eyes to some of the challenges, my itinerary seems over ambitious to me as well.

We are planning to travel in the 1st 2 weeks of Jun 2024, immediately after school closes in US (GA). The two families consist of kids ranging in age from teenager to college age and respective parents (walking is not a problem).

If I were to skip Switzerland and Dolomites, will I be able keep Lake Como (or I am better of skipping it as well).

I gather that Tuscany is a beautiful area to see, hence the thought of including Assisi, Vol d’Orcia (Tuscany) and Montecatini.

From your suggestion, I take it that I will need about 2-3 days per major destinations (Rome, Florence, Venice) and 1 day per each of the smaller (Pisa, Assisi, Milan).

I will check the train routes and skip the plan to drive.

For accommodation, if I were to look for Agritourism, wouldn't I need a car (as they tend to be in the country side).

Thank you once again,
Tom

Tom, yes if you want a stay at an agriturismo, your own vehicles are needed. But your trip transportation doesn't have to be all or nothing. No reason not to have a car for a few days if you are primarily in a rural area with poor public transportation, doing day trips to small towns/villages where you can park in a public lot on the outskirts for a few hours. But going from city to city by train is definitely the cheaper and often faster, way to go.

For accommodation, if I were to look for Agritourism, wouldn't I need a car (as they tend to be in the country side).
J

Yes you’d want cars - at least 3 for your group if the cars are sufficiently large, keeping in mind room for luggage. Italian cars have smaller luggage capacities than American cars in general. Be certain you’d have 3 willing drivers - it is more challenging driving in the countryside than in the US (narrow roads, fewer and smaller road signs, gravel roads especially on small country lanes leading to agriturismos) and if someone isn’t game it will be difficult.

If that’s no issue, in Tuscany you can rent cars in Arezzo or Chiusi (Avis/Budget) which are served by direct regional trains from Rome.

Thank you CJean and Kesa.

Now I think I have decent core itinerary to develop the details around.

I forgot to mention Cinque Terre- is it a must see, how much time needed to get a quick overview, or better of skipping it for another time?.

Thanks,
Tom

Tom, you have 14 nights and 10 people. Imho you have time for Rome, Florence, Venice and the Lake Como. Forget about the Cinque Terre villages (that are nothing special).

Fly into Rome. After 3 or 4 Nights in central Rome, rent 3 cars and slowly drive to Florence through the hills of the Val d'Orcia. Drop the cars at Florence airport.

Pick one from Siena, Pisa and Lucca as day trips by train from Florence.

After Florence, use trains to get to Venice, the Como Lake and Milan. If you can, try to spend the last night in Milan's Navigli district to get a glimpse of real Italy. Take the airport train from Milan's Cadorna Station and fly home from MXP airport.

Otherwise you can skip Milan and book a private driver to go directly from the Lake to the Airport.

P.S. Assisi is in Umbria, not in Tuscany.

Dario,
Thank you for your suggestions. Much appreciated.

Hi Tom,

You have already received great advice from folks on the forum. I want to share some tips based on my travel in June 2019 with 6 people (4 adults and 2 college age girls). This might help as you plan your trip.

• Transport:between cities: We took trains between for the long-distance travels between cities (for us it was Venice to CT to Florence, Siena to Rome). We drove in Tuscany, staying at a B&B 20km outside Siena. Tuscany really requires a car if you want to stay in the countryside and explore.
• Driving in Italy with large group : We rented a minivan. We were able to accomodate 6 people and luggage only because three of the group had 20" suitcases and the rest 22". Even with that, my niece had luggage as a seatmate. For 10 people, you are going to need two large cars or minivans. Driving in Tuscany was straight forward as we were primarily in the countryside. The big issue is parking, especially in the smaller towns with a larger vehicle. All drivers will need an international drivers license.
• Other option instead of driving for visiting the Tuscan countryside: With the size of your group, you might want to consider a private tour. This year we went with another couple and didn't want to drive. We used Florence as our home base and to visit the Val D'Orcia, we hired a private guide. She personalized the trip for us, it was an amazing day. More than what we saw in 2019 when we were doing the driving.
• Group Travel: Arranging travel with 6 different people with different goals, different travel styles is challenging. I did all the planning and if I had to do it over again, I would have gone to less places and slowed down. Every travel challenged is magnified when you have a group. It was stressful trying to rearrange travel when there were air delays, stikes, etc.
• Planning tip on narrowing your itinerary: Rule of thumb is every location change is at least 1/2 day. RS has a great planning map in his guide books. What I have done is take the map and track the travel time between locations. This will give you an idea of how much time is really takes to change cities. Once you do that, narrow down further with your group on the must sees, Finally, edit even further. With two weeks, you might find selecting 2-3 locations and taking day trips will be a bit less stressful.

Wishing you a wonderful trip. Hope these ideas help.

If I were doing the planning, I’d include some time at an agriturismo in Tuscany. It’s a truly special kind of Italian experience. Investigate them. You can find lots of recommendations on this forum.
If you had 3 cars, you wouldn’t all need to agree on your day trips. Might save you from lots of tense situations.
A van that holds 10 people and their luggage might require all drivers to have a special license. Do check on this.
One day for Florence is not enough for the major attractions. My advice is to eliminate Switzerland and add those days to Rome and Florence.
Buon viaggio!

I'm on board with everyone else. Your original plan is just not practical. Less is more. Cut your plans way down and spend time enjoying where you are rather than thinking about how and when you'll get to the next stop.

10 people is a lot of people to move in one group. Will everyone want to do the same thing at the same time? Have you considered alternate plans in the major cities? Who prefers museums? Wandering around town? Ancient sites? Food experiences like tours? Are you happy doing everything on your own, or are guided experiences more your style? Maybe you'll need to divide at least some of the time for everyone to be happy. This probably would be the case for day trips as well.

Driving one car is a pain. Two is crazy complicated. Three? Banish the thought. With 10 people, trains are a good option, and can be economical with advance planning. But, if your itinerary includes time in the countryside, or leisurely drives with stops between cities, have you considered private driver(s)? You get the benefits of mobility with none of the renting/parking/time consuming problems of driving yourselves. It's less stressful, a lot less stressful, to leave the driving to someone else. It's no fun for the drivers because they have all the responsibility and none of the time to enjoy the trip. You wouldn't have to have a driver for all your moves, just the ones that make it easier. It's not as expensive as you might think, especially compared to the costs of 2 or 3 cars. One driver and a 10-12 seat minibus would work. This is the only way I'd consider staying in an agriturismo.

When are you going? I'll admit I've never travelled with a group this large, but based on my experiences with planning for just two, you should nail down your itinerary asap and get started on accommodation reservations immediately. Agriturismi often have 4 or 5 rooms, you might have to book the entire place to keep your group together. Time there is meant to be savored. I think you'd have to rethink your plan to spend a few days at one, and I'm not sure that's realistic considering your aspirations. In big cities, large Airbnbs/VRBOs are available, but again, booking early will be mandatory. Just the logistics of communicating with hosts, keys, finding the places, etc would push me toward the hotel options. Show up, check in, get your keys and go.

I envy your energy to plan this and to include all your family. I think with some careful planning, it could be a great experience for everyone.

These places like Siena/Pisa/Bologna, are you planning on seeing anything? It seems unnecessary to drive out of your way just to say you've been to X city if you're just doing a drive-by

I don't see any advantage to staying at an agriturismo and/or car rental. Stay in Florence and do day trips either by bus/train or with a private tour. Parking in those small towns will be a problem in June. After dinner (lots of choices in Florence) some of you may want to collapse while others may want to enjoy the charms of Florence at twilight. In mid-June sunset's around 9 pm and it's not really dark till 11.

Have you traveled together as a group before? On a guided tour, everyone tacitly agrees that the guide is the leader and calls all the shots. A family (or two families?) is a completely different dynamic, requiring a lot of consensus and a lot of tact and patience. Almost by definition that type of group will move more slowly and be harder to keep together. Consider getting the kids involved in some of the planning, not the route but a few daily itineraries. Make a tentative list of sights in Rome and have everyone rank what they'd like. Remind everyone (often) that they can't see and do everything, but they can enjoying everything they see and do. And no one goes to Italy only once in a lifetime.

Random thoughts from a frequent family traveler...

Use it as an experience to train your kids how to get around. Have them locate trains, navigate the metro, read signs, buy the train tickets from the machine. Based on that, you can see how comfortable you are near the end having them do some stuff on their own.

Maybe do a week together and a week (or 4-5 days seeing different stuff). Meet back up near the end of the trip. 2 weeks is a long time to spend together in this circumstance, plus folks just have different things that they find fun/bucket list items.

Finding a table for 10 is gonna be a laugh any time around prime dinner time. Split up. Maybe now is when you trust the kids to go off and get dinner on their own?

It's gonna be bleeping HOT, even in early June. People doing a Bataan death march to see this museum or that village are gonna be GRUMPY. Siesta time or beach or whatever air conditioned time you can muster from 1-3pm is your friend.

You are herding cats EVERY TIME you try to move 10 people from 2 families with kids and teens, none of whom speak Italian. It is a slow, cumbersome and stressful undertaking. Plus, you're wasting anywhere from 2-6 hours of the day that you could be doing something fun, seeing a site, experiencing the vibe of a place, recharging your batteries. These last two things seem to be totally missing from your trip planning and I think that's a recipe for a bad trip.

Bucket list travel is fine, but too often it's more about taking a selfie in front of ____ and moving on. Nobody cares if you got to stand with 200 other people in front of the Mona Lisa, craning your neck and your phone to have some meaningless selfie. Think about the trip in terms of "making memories" together. For me, the best memories were never bucket list sites, they were having a glass of (terrible but awesome) wine with this person in his cellar, talking hunting & fishing in broken Italian with a local, watching my son giggle with joy riding down a Sommerrodelbahn on his uncle's lap, waking up in the middle of the night to watch the moon over the Alps, hiking through a waterfall, tapping a keg at a Munich beer hall. My point is, none of those things were PLANNED. We just made sure we had time in our schedule to do them.

I've been in your shoes before with trip planning. The "platypus was designed by committee" axiom comes to mind. So...
My advice is replan the whole trip based on a more realistic expectation..

Talk to folks about each time you move around as a lost half day and see if that day trip to Cinque Terre to spend an hour looking at the water is really all that important to them.

Dear Chris, Chani, wanderlust58, Sandy, Rosalyn, edwardiws:

Thank you for your generosity in sharing your travel experiences with me. You precisely understood my situation. I will follow up on your advice valuable.

The two families are that of mine (US) and my sister (Singapore). In the past, when we travelled (in Bali, India etc.) as a group, kids were much younger (elementary – high school) and had rented vans with dedicated driver and would stay in each major city for 2-3 days- it worked really well. However, kids are all grown up now (all except one in college), with formed distinct tastes and preferences. The idea behind the trip was to bring the families together (especially the kids who don’t get to spend much time together) one more time, to have some shared memories before they leave the college to pursue their own lives.

Based on your advice, I am going to limit the trip to 4 cities (Rome, Florence, Venice and Milan/Como) and whatever side trips that we will be able to do from there. Right now, my focus is on booking the flights- arriving in Rome (late May, 2024) and departing from Milan (mid Jun, 2024).

Thanks again,
Tom

When you re-write your itinerary, include the number of nights you will spend in each city.

I spent 6 nights in Florence, but maybe I could have cut that down to 5; four nights in Rome (Rome requires at least 5 nights to see it well), and 3 in Naples (maybe I could have cut that down to 2 nights). That includes a day trip to Pompeii and a day trip to Pisa. Your original supposed itinerary only works if you are skipping a lot of monuments and museums that I would find it a shame to skip. Too much moving around, not enough time experiencing. In planning a trip, it helps to pick the exact specific museums and monuments you will see and what you will acquiesce to skipping. Then you will see how many nights you need in each city. Do not start by first picking the number of nights in each city and then randomly fitting in whatever you fit in.

When I went to the Washington DC area, I met some cousins. We went to some museums. We separated inside the museums and then meet near the entrance at a specified time, with the assistance of texting on cell phones. That worked well. We were able to focus on what we were viewing and not on keeping track of each other. The group was 34 to about 70 at time, no little kids.