1st timer just back- what I learned.... ( a little long- sorry!)

I saw your post and had to reply. We also just got back, loved Florence and especially enjoyed Cinque Terre. I agree Rome was disappointing for the same reasons you listed. We stayed in Trastavere (with our kids), would not recommend. It's very lively at night, but a ghost town during the day.

Thanks for posting your trip report and tips. I also loved Venice and Paris. I thoroughly agree with bringing lots of wetwipes for hands and hand sanitizer. Especially helpful with gelato eaters. I always put a Tidestick in my 3-1-1 bag, it is a wonderful product. Now you can start planning for your next trip!!!!

I found Florence to be more dirty/smelly than Rome was.

The streets seemed to never get cleaned and there were some harsh smells in some spots.

Although it is safe to say each city has its spots which are not always the best.

Nothing like experience to put a place in perspective.

If bad smells are not your thing, don't go to Venice (or to Split, Croatia's waterfront- YIKES!). Some of Venice's back canals are so stagnant, they should hand out sanitized nose shields to walk by them. But you get immune to these things the more you do it, if that is possible.

We found that the pickpockets and gypsy "swarm" children in Rome are very good, but once you know how to guard against it, they can't bother you. Graffiti IS everywhere, especially when taking a train into and out of major cities - it is epidemic. If you go again, order Italian Rail passes, from here before you go, to cover the number of days on which you will be riding trains. It makes life simpler - and it saves you some money, but mostly it saves you LOTS of time.

St Marks' line is always long, but it also moves quickly.

Always carry a Tide stick with me. A waiter in Positano once used one on my shirt right in the restaurant. Oil-bases pasta sauces are great - and messy. It wasn't so embarassing until he used it on the guy at the next table, who also got splattered by my aggressive pasta twirling. (Okay, maybe that is an exaggeration).

It seems those city passes are becoming a must for travel in Europe. They save time, mostly, but if used allot they can save you a bunch of money as well. We make notes ahead of time for the sights we want to see and how the passes will work there.

I can't comment on London or Paris as I have never been sniff sniff :-(
But I can comment on the Italy part! Florence is definately one of my top 2 Italian cities (along with Sorrento)- "magical" is a great word. And I loved Venice: winding your way through all the narrow streets and almost falling into canals becuase you forgot they were there (or maybe that was just me...), or finally finding Harry's Bar only to discover that bellini's are 16+ euro so you turn around and leave haha.
I loved Rome as well. I do agree it's gritty in some places and there is graffiti everywhere, but something about being in a place that was the seat of world politics and culture and influence so many thousands of years ago seems to make up for that, for me anyway. Like where else can you wander the streets and find a 2000 year old buidling and a bar on the same block? Love it!

Hi Michelle,
Welcome home! Although, I like to refer to it as the place I do laundry before I travel again.

So, what did your kids learn? How old are they? Isn't it great that they got to see so much and to learn new ways of looking at things. My son's comment on the no toilet seats? Easier to clean, nothing to break. My take on it--keeps the restroom lines moving!!! :)

I didn't find Termini at all unnerving. We used it like a mall, groceries, books, espresso, etc. Busy place, great people watching. BUT, I will say, we were there in March, so maybe you experienced a busier place!

I'm so glad we're all different. I didn't expect to love Rome so much and you had the opposite experience. That's what makes the world go around.

Looking forward to hearing more about your trip.

So awesome that people have different experiences and opinions!
Was exepecting the "smell" in Venice- never experienced it and we walked all over. Didn't take Rick's suggestion about directions from hotels in Venice and how confusing it was seriously enough... Could not find hotel and we couldn't get through on phone. Thought there was going to be MUTINY from the troops and would have NEVER thought to go down the small alley it was down. Had to ask at least 3 different people for help (with VERY limited Italian :)! Did the Murano trip and actually enjoyed the ride home going all around the Grand Canal on a beautiful day. Skipped the gondolas- maybe if was just me and hubby but with 10 and 14 yr old boys.... Kept looking for "singing" drivers and never saw one. Most seemed fairly uninterested in the trip and passengers.
Definitely agree about the mixture of old/new in Rome- fascinating! Although I expect some graffiti in any major city, this was like nothing I have ever encountered and I've been to most of the biggies.
Kids were a little "churched" out- very understandable but had a great time.

Already planning the next swap- south of France- WITHOUT KIDS :)!

Glad you had a great trip. I hope you give Rome another chance sometime-not in the summer. I was there in late September and again during Xmas week and it was just wonderful. I was there this past June and felt the same way you did-just told myself never to return in June, July or August. And, I agree, Venice is magical-especially after the day trippers leave and you can wander in the back streets or dance in Piazza San Marcos. PS. I bought the bellini in Harry's Bar, but it was pouring rain and it seemed worth the money to sit down and get dry.

Loved reading your post and the comments. I'm going to Italy for the first time and can't wait to experience all that, good and bad smells too! I remember being disappointed with all the graffiti that I saw in Amsterdam. I guess it's all part of being in a big city.

John,
So what is your 'guard' you learned to fend of the gypsys and pickpocketers??? Would love to hear your advice.
Michelle: thanks for the comments. I am going to Italy in Oct. for the first time, can't wait!! LOVE reading everything I can on it :)

Michelle,

Thanks for posting your "Just Back Report". I always enjoy reading these, and I always find it so interesting to read the different perceptions that travellers have of various cities in Europe.

I love Rome and don't find it "dirty, somewhat seedy" at all. It's certainly chaotic at times, but not nearly as much as some places in Naples. I was in Rome a few months ago and was through Termini several times, with no problems at all. I'm quite comfortable there, and managed to avoid the "scammers" completely this time (for some reason?). One of my favourite activities is sitting in the top floor dining area of the Termini McDonald's with a coffee and watching the "performance" in front of me.

It's great to hear that the other parts of your trip were great. Time to start planning the next one!

Monique,

"or finally finding Harry's Bar only to discover that bellini's are 16+ euro so you turn around and leave haha"

I had to try at least one Bellini at Harry's and it was very good! I figured after travelling all the way to Venice, I didn't want to leave without trying at least one.

Cheers!

It's interesting to hear people different opinions on Rome. Yes there is graffiti (some of which infuriates me to see such beautiful old buildings be defaced, Maybe Singapore has the right idea) Whoever, I find Rome AMAZING. It seems that every corner that you turn you will see a historical treasure. I never tire of wandering around the eternal city. To each their own.

TO each their own absolutely. Sorry that you didn't care for Rome as I guess some people don't. I think it is the most fascinating city in the world. Can be gritty in places but so is New York. Rome is gritty but you have to remember how old the place is!!! You'll find graffiti everywhere in the world you just need to look past it. Glad you had fun though!!! Happy travels.

Hi Michelle,

Loving this conversation. Thanks for getting it started.

I completely agree with what you said about the gondola rides. We had our almost 13 year old with us. Certainly not romantic. We both agreed that it looked like you were paying for a very long, awkward silence with a stranger.

My son still imitates the bored, "Gondola? Gondola?" that we'd get as we passed by.

How many days were you there? How did you travel? I'd love to know more. We're planning on trying to hit several countries next trip. Would love to hear how your kids handled it.

Lucca is terrific, I agree. Funny though, I loved Rome, and found the Metro so easy, safe and surprisingly clean. It was offputting that it was so crowded, but St. Peter's, the Vatican, etc was so worth the lines, the crowds. I thought Paris was dirty...I saw no fewer than 4 men(yes-grown men) peeing on walls in major parks and intersections. Also, Parisians love their dogs, but even on the Champs Elysee I saw no one pick up after them. I thought Paris eating was even more expensive than London, but I am sure that well travelled people who know Paris very well know of excellent eating places that are reasonable. Our arrival night we wanted to keep it light. The equivalent of a BLT for 2 of us, and a 1/2 bottle of house wine, set us back the equivalent of $65 before tip. And we must have waited at least 60 min for the waiter to even ask if we were ready for the tab. Then another 40 min passed. We saw all the tourist sights in Paris....we always do the first time in any large European city. But I am not in a hurry to return to Paris anytime soon.Florence is lovely...my favorites are the hilltowns, like Montepulciano,etc. in Tuscany.

I agree. I didn't find Rome to be all that dirty for a big city. Graffiti doesn't stand out in my memory. Don't recall much litter. Here's the deal on toilet seats: Italians don't believe they are very sanitary so they don't bother to put them on, especially in public toilets.I don't know how the old and feeble ladies use them! I managed, but could probably use some lessons. Of course, in China, all you get is a trough.

Paul, Rome is a huge city,, and just like ALL huge cities there are dirty parts. Anyone who denys that is looking at the issue with rose colored glasses, or possibly only visited the very touristy parts for a few days.
Michelle,
I apprieciate your trip report ,, and I think it sounds like you had a great time.

I do remember that there was graffitti in Rome although I really don't remember it being any worse there than some of the major U.S. cities I have traveled in. I LOVE Rome. There is just something so magical about seeing the Colosseo lit up at night (with a wedding party taking pictures). Also the Trevi Fountain. Never felt unsafe walking around at night.....even in the Termini area.

Thanks to all for your responses and also for all the incredible insight BEFORE! My family gets annoyed at me for the constant referrals to "Rick Steves" and the chat line but it has made so many trips SOOOO much easier!
I will also add that I was somewhat hesitant to post my OPINIONS because of the tone of responses from some posters. I did so only to try to share certain things I learned that I found stressful and wish I had known ahead of time.
So at the risk of sounding defensive.... these are MY OPINIONS- whether you agree with them or not is up to you but they are as valid as yours and I respect the differences. Everyone is not going to agree and that's great! My comments on Rome certainly ruffled a few feathers but again, don't misunderstand- I thought it was incredible but it wasn't my favorite. I find it amusing that people keep pointing out graffiti in major cities- I LIVE in one and am truly a "city person", have traveled to most of the biggies and this still stood out to me.
If anything I learned helped one person- it was worth and THANKS to the poster about the clarification of the toilets though many restaurants had no soap in the bathrooms :)!

Thanks James for proving my point- must be a Yankee fan ;)!

Michelle - I thought I was the only one obsessed with Rick Steves and this helpline haha, glad to know I'm not alone. And in your defense, I noticed a lot of graffiti. In fact, we are going in September and when I was Google mapping various apartments when deciding where to stay, the street view of some areas shows that there is indeed a graffiti issue in some places. So I see exactly where you are coming from. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a Red Sox fan either ;-)

Ken - will definately save a few extra dollars to try to original belinni at Harry's Bar. We did end up getting cheaper knock-offs at a place near our hotel behind St. Mark's Square, and it was good, but I'm positive the Harry's version would blow it away. It was fun debating on who'd be the brave one to go in and ask though :-) memories... sigh

I didn't notice any smell in Venice at all. It was rather warm too during the day. I might have been too preoccupied with finding Harry's Bar or buying jewelry, so maybe I'm not the best source.

Honestly (and don't laugh), what freaked me out the most in the ENTIRE country were those people posing as statues in the piazza outside of Uffizi. Once I saw them I was so scared that any random statute would actually turn out to be human and jumped at me. Other than that, smooth sailing all around.

James,, I don't know if "everyone" is a know it all as you,,, since I don't hate Italy,, been there twice and will likely be returning next year. Must be hard to be you James,, being so perfect in all you say and think. Of course you did just insist that booking a hotel was best through a travel agent,, which tells me the caliber of your travel opinion,, LOL

Hi Michelle, I think sometimes when we visit a new place we have preconceptions about how a place that we are visiting will be, and when they differ from what we had hoped, we fail to appreciate how a place is. I had went on my first trip to Europe and Rome was my first destination. Having been an artist and having dreamt of visiting Rome an entire lifetime I was moved to tears on my first day. I was fulfilling a dream and everywhere I turned, every church I entered, I was knocked out by sites that I had only seen in books. Nothing can ever top that first day. The city just never stopped amazing me.

My next destination was Paris, and I had hoped for a similar experience. I must say that I was a little disappointed by Paris at first. It was not the same experience that I had in Rome. HOWEVER, after about 5 hours of being there I began to appreciate the charms of Paris. She seduced me, slowly, and she was effective in making me fall in love with her. I now can't get enough of her.

Now Madrid, that's another story. With the exception of the Prado, I was bored with her!

Maybe give Rome another chance.

Well, this guy from Boston is excited to be in Rome next month no matter what...

Hope all those rats we are infested with don't get you first Joe ;)! Enjoy!

I am in Rome right now! I've been once before with my three daughters and had a negative experience. I vowed never to return...until my husband and son wanted to go on this trip. I must say that after only one day here, I'm glad I gave Rome another chance.

My advice for bathroom differences in every country: I carry a 'bathroom bag' (can be a ziploc) in my purse that contains toilet paper, toilet seat covers, antibacterial wipes, and hand sanitizer. I can be a bit of a germaphobe. It has been a life saver even in the good ol USA.

Cindy
http://embracing-the-journey.blogspot.com/

Very nice, Andrew!

Monique, you didn't notice any smell in Venice because you were too busy putting Vaseline on your teeth and smiling for those Italian men...;-)

LOL yes Mary, Im sure that must be it. Next time I'll pay more attention... to the odor, not to the guys or my glistening teeth :-)
BTW if you are lost, check out the responses the "what to pack - non-clothing items" post. It's an old beauty pagent trick.
Sorry for the tagent. Back to the topic...

My first impression of Venice over 40 years ago was that it smelled like a sewer. I've been there several times in the past 10 years and have noticed that smell only near the bus station. Venice is best spring and fall, before 10 am and after 5 pm. The area around St Mark's and between there and the Rialto Bridge becomes very congested. I had the Accademia (museum) all to myself one morning when I arrived as it opened.

Another trick in Italy is to arrive at the most popular museums about an hour before closing time. I don't know about summertime, but in the fall I have found no lines late in the day. It's possible to enter within minutes without a reservation then.

Lucca is a great town for relaxing and just wandering around. I like walking on the wall, getting up early for the neighborhood cafe's cappuccino with brioche. The last time I was there I enjoyed a condensed version of the opera "Madame Butterfly."

Rome is Rome. I got goosebumps seeing the colloseum and circus maximus. I managed to walk through the entire city center and out to St Peter's one day. Public transportation is ok, but tends to be very crowded. I'm talking sardine-crowded. Not for me. I'd rather walk. I like staying within a ten-minutes walk of Termini so I don't have to haul my stuff far. Almost everything is walkable from there.

I think I'm ready for another trip to Italy. And I didn't even mention my fondness for Sicily.

You saw a different Rome than I saw. My heart cries to go back, and I've never put a dime in Trevi Fountain.

James, it's a tip from beauty pageants. The contestants put vaseline on their teeth so their lips don't get stuck on their teeth when they smile I guess. I've heard they also put anti hemorrhoid ointment under their eyes to prevent those swollen bags under tired eyes.

Rome is definitely an experience, but not that bad of one " it's a big city ". Yes always carry a tide stick and some kind of hand cleaner. I also found the toilets to be interesting w/o the seat, so I figured they probably got tired of replacing them over the centuries ( just kidding ). The Termini area is seedy and I keep telling people. Maybe someone at the Italian tourist administration should read our remarks here and on Tripadvisor and warn the authorities clean up the area. Although we didn't have any problems getting to our hotel in the area, we always kept a visual eye all around us at all times. And it's not the dirty century old streets that bother me, but all that GRAFFITI. Not only in Rome, but any other city in Europe. IT'S GETTING OUT OF HAND! I don't think I have a picture anywhere on my photo albums that I don't see some graffiti.

All in all " BELLA ITALIA ":-)

Yes, anti-hemmoroidal creams are perfect for bags under the eyes (and zits!) as it reduces inflammation. Another multi-purpose item! I think I will post this under "what to pack"...

I went to Rome by myself for 5 days during Easter 2008. I thought Rome was magical! I think being there by myself also changed the experience because I was able to dictate my own time and spent as much time as I want at a sight. I poured through Rick's Rome book and visited almost every church he listed on there. Definitely got churched out in the end but looking back, it was such a wonderful experience!

I had made a reservation at the Borghese on Easter to avoid the crowd at the Vatican, but slept through my alarm and missed my Borghese appointment. Last minute decision I decided to visit the Vatican instead and boy was I glad! I wasn't Catholic but still had a wonderful experience seeing the Easter Mass.

Yes Rome is a bit chaotic and sometimes a little dirty. But just when I was put off by a graffiti, I turned the corner there's the Trevi Fountain. Turned the corner again there's a panoramic view of the Forum. Absolutely magical to see different layers of history imbedded in this crowded city.

Funny I had always wanted to go to London when I was little because I always love English history. Was a little disappointed when I finally visited in 2006. Everything was soooooo expensive! On the same trip I also went to Paris, which I had actually very little expectation. Loved every second of it! I definitely agree with another poster that sometime your expectation also impact your impression of a place.

Michelle,
I'm glad you were pleased with the Friends of Uffizi passes - hope they made your trip more enjoyable. Thanks for the feedback on your trip...makes we wish to be back again myself!

I love this forum. Every time I read a thread like this, I feel like I am back in Italy.

Rome - I was there in February. The Colosseum was very crowded and the Trevi Fountain too. I can't imagine what it would be like in "tourist season." Loved the museums and churches, was underwhelmed by the city itself. Not dirty, just no "atmosphere." My biggest surprise: how easy it was to cross the streets. I had heard so many horror stories. My second biggest surprise: how easy it was to get really lost, even with map and compass. Maybe because of the construction/renovations going on, but signage was missing in a lot of places. Biggest disappointment: the gelato was mediocre.

Florence and Venice - superb. Venice has more atmosphere (magical as michelle has said) but the art in Florence - WOW.

Verona - my personal favorite town (but there are so many I haven't been to . . . yet)

Paris - wrong helpline but my favorite city in the world (Jerusalem close second, Venice third).

I did find Rome dirty but not especially seedy. I think Rome compares favorably, however, to Amsterdam or New Orleans (both at least as dirty and much seedier IMO).

Thanks Michelle. I go in Sept with my mother age 79, cousin 78 and my sister age 53.

I am worried about using the trains. Any secrets or tips. We arrive in Milan-Linate and then travel to Verenna- Lake Como. Cheap by train, but a challenge. Would appreciate tips to finding the correct train.

Hi Alice,
Someone on this thread posted a tip about easier train travel. I also didn't go to those cities and am certainly no expert! Go to Rick's train link and the link the other poster stated. Might also want to stick to first class trains vs. second class just for comfort for your family.
Good luck and have fun!

Please don't disregard Rome because of dirt and graffiti!

While it can be distracting, I think it's important for travelers to keep one thing in mind: the weight that we put on having sparkling-clean cities is pretty American. Go to Athens or any other southern European (or non-western) country (or, for that matter, in poorer parts of our own U.S. cities), and you'll often find the same: Cleaning up trash, and graffiti, is simply not a priority.

Finally, as an expat living in Rome, I'm often asked by visitors and tourists WHY there's so much graffiti in Rome. To try to answer the question -- which I think is more complicated, and perhaps less about crime and poverty, than people would expect -- I posted on my blog, www.revealedrome.com, about it here.

Hope that helps!
Mandy

Alice,

I'm going to suggest two things to you - Rick Steves'
"Europe Through the Back Door" book (buy or check your library) and some videos on this website:

At the top of this page is a tab called "Rick on TV"; click on that, then at the bottom right side look for "Watch Rick Steves' Europe - free - on demand". Scroll through the various videos, looking for the ones titled "Travel Skills 1", "2", and "3" (they usually aren't together...). Part "1" deals with how to use the trains (and a few other things).

Uh-oh -- "Travel Skills Part 1" has a glitch EXACTLY where the train skills are discussed! SO, go to his YouTube.com channel and search for 'Rick Steves trains',OR cut-and-paste the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moLGxdId9uU

It's the same thing, just the portion that doesn't work on the website video. I also recommend Parts 2 and 3. You just have to get there and get your feet wet, so to speak, and see how the whole train-thing works. Those 2 resources (plus watching any other videos - Rick Steves' or regular ol' people on YouTube) will introduce you to how things look.

Comparing Rome and Paris: I think Rome's lack of "atmosphere" (per Chani) is due to the laissez-faire attitude and sheer wealth of treasures that it has - Italy can be a little, ummm, 'laid back' (LOL!!!), and between a lack of urgency and the bureacracy involved, plus the fact that everywhere you look, touch, and dig there's History, there's this feeling (to me) of being overwhelmed by it all. It's like they can't possibly catch up - something ALWAYS needs restoration - and they're doing the best they can!!!

Whereas Paris, for the most part, is only 150 years old, and was planned as a Grand City. Everything was to be harmonious, and full of green parks, and the broad streets just can't compare with that craziness that is Rome. I think you can love both, but you're going to have a favorite, and for most people that favorite is Paris. It's green and orderly.

[no 'flaming' - not that anyone here would EVER do that! - but I love the 2 cities, and we spend a great deal of time trying to tease out just why we love one and not the other, etc., and for me, I think I've figured out why...]

And thank you, Chani, for making me think about Rome in that way - I see exactly what you mean about the lack of "atmosphere". It's like a string of all of these 'great things', but it's hard for me to see the city as a whole of something. Some people see Paris as a whole of grandness/prettiness/etc., but never get into the individual sites! What I hear repeatedly on this Helpline is --

'See the stuff in Rome, but see the city of Paris.'

Things the I learned about Rome:

When ordering Gelato, wait until the teenage girls are working and send your teenage son to order. Boy, I thought what a great price, gelatos are huge. Until one day, some guy, who must have been the owner scooped the gelato into the little cup and cut it off the top so not a speckle of gelato when pass the rim. Two bites and it was gone. Yes, we went straight to another gelato shop.

All subway trains are covered every inch with spray paint, until you want to take a picture. It amazed me the amount which was covered, literally every bit of surface area was covered. We waited for a train with camera ready. When it finally came, I think it must have rolled right off the assembly line. Not a speck of graffiti. At least not until it arrived at the next stop.

Italians will not move for you on sidewalk, but you better move for them. We where walking on the right side of sidewalk, following all the people moving in front of us, when a older woman got upset with us for being in her way and said "Oh Marone" (sp?) I don't know what it meant, but I watched the Sopranos and I know its not nice. If they are having a conversation on side walk, you must walk into the street and go around the park cars and back on the sidewalk.

Never found a restroom which a toilet seat on it (except our hotel). Absolutely the filthy places ever.

The gypsy laying on the ground as you walk down path to coliseum with just enough energy to shake that little can, moaning like shes dying is really OK. I guess she felt better the next day, because we saw her outside the Vatican. The walk over must have been exhausting, because she was laying on ground shaking the can. May be she should go inside and pray for help. Her sister is going much better. I saw her at the Eifle Tower in Paris.

Oh by the way...Elvis goes live. We saw him singing on the train while traveling to the Vatican.

Have to add one more thing: GO RED SOX!!! WOO HOO!

I didn't think Rome was that dirty. I think it was more walking around historical sights the are all dirt which makes it feel dirty such as the Forum and Colesium and not enough grassy areas. The graffiti didn't bother me, I thought of it as a "cultural" experience. I saw a youtube video back when we were planning our trip which showed a group of taggers graffiting a subway train as it pulled into the station and being completely covered in spray paint when it pulled out a few seconds later.

Kristen, what that woman probably said was "Madonn'". It's short for "Madonna" and is just a mild oath, kind of like "For Pete's sake".