Regarding the 12th of July Parades in Belfast and the days before, two questions:
Is it reasonably safe to be in Belfast and watch the parades? (I am assuming that wearing orange or green during this time period is not wise.)
For those who have had the experience, is this an experience they would encourage others, who are interested in politics and culture, to seek out? In short, is it worth it?
To answer your questions-
1- I’ve been in Belfast around this time and it’s definitely safe to visit in general but I would stay far away from any bonfires (both for political reasons and because these can be very unsafe- I saw footage of one toppling over this year while lit).
2- You may get differing opinions on this, but I personally would not attend a march. Others may interpret this differently but for me these marches are a sign of intimidation to the other community. It’s not something I would want to be a part of tho I can see why they are interesting from a cultural point of view. If you did want to attend one I’m sure you’d be fine in terms of personal safety.
I hope that is somewhat helpful, I am trying to avoid getting into politics.
Cat VH, you were helpful, you were clear but subtle, and you did not dive into politics. The reason you offered for not attending makes much sense. Thank you.
Hate-filled and ugly. And that's just the men.
I love the reply from Gerry....
The parades are an enigma. Supposedly a celebration/commemoration but as said, often an act of intimidation. They have influences of both religion and politics but aren't really either - cult would be a closer description but even that isn't right.
Should you seek out a parade? Well if you stick to the advice of not gettting engaged in discussions you'll come away knowing less than when you arrived! And if you do engage may may feel uncomfortable. This advice assumes that you are white.......
Sorry I deleted my reply to you there. Apologies.
I don't think anyone said they aren't safe to attend. Not that I can see anyway.
Yes, I live in London. That doesn't mean to say I've always lived in London. It's where I currently live.
I deleted my reply because it's a dodgy subject to discuss fully here if we want to stay within community guidelines.
https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/community-guidelines
I'm not always the best at sticking to those guidelines myself admittedly, but people have different opinions about the parades and we have to respect that here. You're free to make a case as to why the OP should visit Belfast for the 12th.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the history goes something like this.
James II, the legitimate monarch, had to flee to France after a group of English nobles in an act of treason and/or bravery invited a Dutch leader to invade England. James II attempts to put down the usurpers -- William of Orange and his protestant wife Mary (James' disloyal daughter) -- by gathering an army that will include a bunch loyal Irish, who happen to be catholics. But James is defeated and William of Orange is victorious and ever since then the protestants in Northern Ireland have been banging pots, marching about, playing the same three songs and lighting bonfires. Since 1690.
Many protestant locals and some tourists like the spectacle while others view it as reminiscent of klan rallies in the US which were signaling enterprises to let the former slaves know who was really the boss. Others still say "What? This has nothing to do with that! It's about celebrating being British. And James II was unacceptable due to him being a catholic and everything."
As a lapsed unitarian, I'd personally can't really say I understand any of it.
Anyway, I saw this episode of the hit Northern Ireland comedy show Derry Girls and it seemed to be quite a divisive thing -- even among the Derry girls themselves. Orla-- one character-- quite liked the parades. But the rest of the family thought it was reason to flee across the border and into the safety of Catholic Ireland.
I think Ireland, northern Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland-- all of it-- are quite lovely to visit. Personally, I'd pick a different day though
Happy travels!
celebrating being British??? NI isn't part of Great Britain, it says so on the front of UK passports....
The comparison with Klan rallies may be a little over the top but there are certain similarities....
I'm not saying I view it as a klan rally. Also I'm not saying it's a grand celebration for being British.
And given one of my key sources of information is the TV sitcom Derry Girls, I think it would be wise to view my telling of the history as suspect!
I'd love to hear how others know the history of this big thing from 1690. (I was very young at the time and don't remember it too well.)
Happy travels
Thanks to all who have responded. My questions have largely been answered. No decisions made, though much less likely to visit at that time.
never listen to the waffle posted on here saying that they are dangerous to attend
Again, nobody said that. It's what they represent that people have an issue with.
edit: Sorry, Cat VH did mention that the bonfires might be a bit unsafe. That's more to do with the nature of fire being burny and hot, rather than any other implications they might have.
Marches are also held in other cities in the UK where there has traditionally been significant immigration from Ireland and associated sectarian attitudes ( amongst some)
Glasgow springs to mind and I remember seeing marches in Liverpool when I was a child. My little brother was very excited by the drums and hats and wanted to join in, much to the amusement of my very catholic dad.
If you going to watch something in Belfast I would avoid the bonfires. As well as massive piles of burning wood being unsafe in themselves, after dark is when things are more likely to ‘kick off’.
"same with Northern Ireland we are British"
Please, let's keep personal politics out of this. Some people from NI identify as British, some identify as Irish, and some identify as both. The wonderful thing about the Good Friday agreement is that everyone born in Northern Ireland is free to identify as they wish, both from a legal and personal standpoint.
David, you mostly have the history right! Altho as anyone from NI knows the year is 1688. If anyone here has an interest in William III or Mary II, I highly recommend a visit to their palace Het Loo in Appeldoorn, Netherlands. Their story is actually quite sad- Mary died young and William was devastated. Henry Purcell wrote a beautiful song for her funeral, which the incredibly talented Wendy Carlos reinterpreted on the Moog for the Clockwork Orange soundtrack (a very appropriate film title to include a song about William III's wife!).
1688? It's not to commemorate Battle of the Boyne on July 11, 1690? I was young at the time so I may have my years mixed up!
Good call on the Purcell piece. Just listened to it. Lovely.
A few years ago, the movie Belfast came out. Kenneth Branagh (aka Wallander) reminisces about growing up in NI during the early days of the troubles. There was a great new Van Morrison song in it.
Happy travels.
Oh yes you are right, 1690 is the year of the Battle of the Boyne (another very interesting site one can visit- next to Bru Na Boinne) but 1688 is the year of the "Glorious Revolution"- the year William and Mary came over from the Netherlands and took the throne.
celebrating being British??? NI isn't part of Great Britain, it says so on the front of UK passports....
There are many who live in Northern Ireland who identify as British. The word has both a geographical and a cultural meaning.
1690 is the year of the Battle of the Boyne
Yes. I was wondering about 1688 too, but that's a significant historical date also I guess.
1690 is what is burned into my brain from where I grew up. It's what would be painted on walls, usually alongside "NO SURRENDER" "UVF" "FTP" or "RFC".
Even if you don't agree with the situation it is important to acknowledge that a lot of people in Northern Ireland identify as being British. Alongside Protestantism, it's why these parades take place.
I never knew them as "parades" when I was young. It was always the "Orange Walk". Or just "The Walk". The Parades Commission in Northern Ireland formed post-Drumcree to tame some of the excesses. It was always the fabled aim of the walk to burst the bass drum while marching up and down the steps of the chapel. I'm not sure that sort of thing is allowed these days.
I definitely don't miss west of Scotland sectarianism. It was around me at school and some members of my extended family but I never really committed to the bit. I could probably still sing at least a verse and chorus of both Fields of Athenry and The Sash though, learned by osmosis.
A friend of mine from years ago played the flute in a band, Craigneuk True Defenders. I Googled and here's a link to a clip of them from a week or two ago. I don't see him in the lineup these days though.
https://youtu.be/dk1R0s2zHpI?si=X9G02EeP4plhPacs
and another -
