Reality Check Please: Draft Itinerary of December 2024 Trip, what do I need to drop?

You must realize that reality has nothing to do with that which is romanticized in the Percy Jackson series.
If you are not aware of this, you are heading for huge disappointments.

How accurate are the drive times in something like google maps?

Google Maps drive times are not accurate at all. You can add at least 20% driving time without counting breaks along the way

To visit Nafplio, Epidaurus and Mycenae you will need to stay at least 3 nights in Nafplio (2 full days).
In winter most sites in the Peloponnese close at 3 or 4 p.m.

Day 2 Explore Nafplion and drive to Olympia,

You cannot explore Nafplio and drive to Olympia at the same time, you also can't include Nafplio, Olympia and Meteora in such a short time. The temple of Poseidon is also in a completely different direction, at Cape Sounion.

So your itinerary is basically a compilation of boxes to check, impossible to do in such a short time, especially in winter.

Take a map, choose a direction and don't try to drive and visit at the same time, you won't succeed and you will be very disappointed.

I cannot personally attest to Google drive times in Europe or Greece but I imagine it the same as the US.

I can say that drive times in the US are very good. After the route optimization is complete, they tune times based on actual real life data of ordinary travelers. So for the average driver under normal conditions, 1/2 the people will beat the time and 1/2 the people will travel slower than the time.

They also adjust based on projected traffic for time of day.

Here is a Rick Steves travel forum thread on the subject with a quote from someone:.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/iceland/google-maps-time-accuracy

Real time is fairly close to what Google predicts. The way Google Maps
forecasts time is by crowdsourcing data from users who have toggled
their location to 'on' in the Google Maps app. Google collects
information about the current traffic conditions from its users who
share their geographic location with the app. So the predicted time is
the average time based on the average speed that Google collects from
users/drivers on that road. If a road is travelled by many Google Map
Users sharing their location, the forecast will be more accurate
compared to a road that is rarely traveled. Consider however that
Google Maps does not factor in pit stops for taking pictures or using
the restroom.

(I believe the last point is technically wrong. Pit stops are algorithmically factored in. But stopping for sightseeing of course is not. )

An alternative to Olympia is Nemea. Much closer to Nafplion. The ruins are lovely and the little museum with details of the ruins and games good too. https://nemeacenter.berkeley.edu/about-ancient-nemea/ We did that rather than drive all the way across to Olympia.

Nafplion is around or past Athens from the airport. I would never attempt what is about 2 hour drive after overnight flight. And it is easy enough to pick up car from downtown Athens. We walked from our hotel just south of the Acropolis to the main street where there are several of the international rental car companies. So I would reverse and do Athens first and then drop car either back in Athens or at the airport at the end.

You must realize that reality has nothing to do with that which is romanticized in the Percy Jackson series.
If you are not aware of this, you are heading for huge disappointments.

Yes thank you. Fiction is not reality.

How accurate are the drive times in something like google maps?

Google Maps drive times are not accurate at all. You can add at least 20% driving time without counting breaks along the way

To visit Nafplio, Epidaurus and Mycenae you will need to stay at least 3 nights in Nafplio (2 full days).
In winter most sites in the Peloponnese close at 3 or 4 p.m.

Helpful, thank you.

Day 2 Explore Nafplion and drive to Olympia,

You cannot explore Nafplio and drive to Olympia at the same time, you also can't include Nafplio, Olympia and Meteora in such a short time. The temple of Poseidon is also in a completely different direction, at Cape Sounion.

Thank you. This is why I am asking how much time I need and if Metero is worth going completely out of the way.
I know that Cape Sounion is in the opposite direction. I am asking if I keep the car once in Athens so I can do this as a side trip, or go out of my way on the return to Athens to fit it in. I am asking for expertise to arrange my trip.

So your itinerary is basically a compilation of boxes to check, impossible to do in such a short time, especially in winter.

Thank you. This is what I am trying to determine having looked at a map, and created a wish list and not a booked itinerary.

Take a map, choose a direction and don't try to drive and visit at the same time, you won't succeed and you will be very disappointed.

Thank you David. That link and post are helpful.

An alternative to Olympia is Nemea. Much closer to Nafplion. The ruins are lovely and the little museum with details of the ruins and games good too. https://nemeacenter.berkeley.edu/about-ancient-nemea/ We did that rather than drive all the way across to Olympia.

Thank you. This is great information

Nafplion is around or past Athens from the airport. I would never attempt what is about 2 hour drive after overnight flight. And it is easy enough to pick up car from downtown Athens. We walked from our hotel just south of the Acropolis to the main street where there are several of the international rental car companies. So I would reverse and do Athens first and then drop car either back in Athens or at the airport at the end.

I have read so many posts about not attempting to drive out of the city and that it is better to leave from the airport and how important it is to be back in Athens for your flight and not wait until the day of your flight so that is why I thought we should finish in Athens. I also read about a rental car company that gets you out of the city. While we are experienced international drivers, in cities with terrible traffic and driving, we don't read Greek so I was concerned about the street signs etc. Your post is encouraging. Thank you!

Hello,

I am excited for you and your family. This is going to be a great trip!

As a totally different option from driving, take a look at the CHAT tours 4 Day/3night classical tour. My daughter and I took this tour and we loved it. It was a nice mix of ages, plenty of young adults/families. I just checked and they do offer the tour in the winter on every Monday.

The tour visits Corinth Canal,Mycenae, Epidaurus, Nauplia ,Olympia, Rion, Nafpaktos, Delphi, Kalampaka, Meteora, Thermopylae. So you will get to see all the places on your wish list, but with someone else doing the driving, so you can nap a bit if needed. Bonus for us was that the guide would point out cool tidbits as we drove. For example, that mountain over there is where this Mythological character did this...that sort of thing. Intermixed with actual Greek history from the Peloponnesian War. These are things that my daughter and I would have missed if we'd tried to do this on our own, even though she and I are fans of all things Greek too.

I went to Cape Sounion many years ago on a day trip bus from Athens. I see that CHAT tours also offers that. These are just options in case you want to do something other than drive to all your stops. Enjoy!

If you have any questions, please let me know. We love Greece.

I cannot personally attest to Google drive times in Europe or Greece
but I imagine it the same as the US.

No it's not really the same,

The RS thread on the subject takes an example that is mostly about real-time travel times taking into account real-time traffic.

The reality is quite different because a more or less urban environment of roads with many drivers sharing their locations in areas well covered by a mobile network should not be compared with a semi-mountainous environment with quite a few areas without a mobile network and only small winding roads frequented by a few vehicles per hour.

In the Greek mainland, for a journey estimated between 2h30 and 3h on Google Maps, I add 20 minutes of margin, plus almost 1 hour of break because it is not a question of driving like a deliveryman in a hurry or someone going at work but to visit and enjoy.

As a totally different option from driving, take a look at the CHAT tours 4 Day/3night classical tour. My daughter and I took this tour and we loved it. It was a nice mix of ages, plenty of young adults/families. I just checked and they do offer the tour in the winter on every Monday.
I went to Cape Sounion many years ago on a day trip bus from Athens. I see that CHAT tours also offers that. These are just options in case you want to do something other than drive to all your stops. Enjoy!

If you have any questions, please let me know. We love Greece.

Thank you for both your enthusiasm and this suggestion. I am going to look into it. We aren't group tour people in general however the idea of being able to fully participate without driving or navigating is VERY appealing

Stay tuned!

Yes, other than a day tour here and there, it is the only group tour that we've taken.

But it was totally worth it for this itinerary. The logistics made sense and the bonus information was awesome.

JoLui, please accept my apologies if you thought I was challenging your local expertise. You have far more expertise in Greece than I do. If there are local conditions and lack of data from historical driving data captured from anonymous GPS phone data in Greece, I certainly wouldn't know one way or the other.

Your suggestions on how best to visit Greece seem thoughtful too!

I will however confess that I actually have deep technical expertise in software routing. While most of my personal expertise is US based, we did do business in UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, New Zealand and China. And while the tool I used for routing (including drive times) was typically not google maps as it lacked bridge height, weight limits and restricted road routing, I would occasionally do analysis of historical traffic to benchmark things because it's API is so fast and simple. A 20% bias error rate is something in never saw in my experience but of course in certain local routes, it wouldn't surprise me that it occurred. I do know that the algorithms are tuned not have a bias that overstates or understate drive times. Relatively small historical data samples should prevent a 20% bias in almost all cases.

I think the OP's idea of basing out Athens and driving out and back is challenged by points you made well regardless of whether Google's drive time estimates are 20% understated. And again, my apologies if I was off-putting in any way.

Happy travels!

My main point about travel times is that before: "I'm going from this place to this place, please Google tell me how long it will take", many more or less predictable factors must be taken into account. especially on vacation.

You are not in a daily driving routine to go to your office.

You are in an unknown environment with unknown and sometimes incomprehensible road signs if you don't read a little Greek, even though it is precisely the road signs that you should trust and not the directions that the GPS indicates. Because your smart GPS will think that you will save 2 minutes by taking a 2 meters wide dirt roads in the middle of herds of sheep. :))

You also drive through exceptional and scenic landscapes, charming villages where you can stop for lunch, a drink or simply take a break because once again: You are on vacation.

For example last year we drove from Nafplio to Monemvasia via the coastal road. Google estimates a driving time of 3 hours 25 minutes.

I started the car in Nafplio at 9:41 a.m. and parked in Monemvasia at 4:44 p.m. (thanks to Google MyTravels).

It wasn't surprising, this was about the travel time we had planned and honestly we could have taken more breaks.

Another day we drove from Stoupa, in Mani to another small Greek village further north, Google estimates the travel time at
1h58... It took us 9 hours because we visited the Archaeological Site of Ancient Messini on the way.

I must also mention a lunch stop in a tavern where the locals who hung out there were in need of visitors and kept us with them longer than expected :))

So my first advice would be:

Don't plan your vacation with a shedule that has been predetermined months in advance based on what a machine tells you

I did want to reassure the OP that signs are in English on the roads. I will add though that the signs are not repeated as often as in US. I missed for example the airport entrance coming back from Nafplio because I wasn’t expecting it.

We went to Nemea when visiting Nafplio and really enjoyed it.

I would definitely leave Olympia out.

We loved Meteora but it is about five hours from Athens.

With winter light, I would seriously consider staying first night near airport in Athen and then set off first thing in the morning. You could do 3 nights Nafplio, 3 nights Athens, and then if you have three more nights with staying first night near airport-Delphi 1 night and Meteora 2 nights.

I will tell you though that there are ski resorts near Delphi so it is mountainous and roads could be bad in December.

You also could spend 4 nights Athens, 4 nights Nafplio, and one night near airport when you arrive. Or take a night away from either Athens or Nafplio and add Delphi if you are comfortable with mountain driving in winter.

Thank you @BethFL, these comments are so helpful!

I did want to reassure the OP that signs are in English on the roads. I will add though that the signs are not repeated as often as in US. I missed for example the airport entrance coming back from Nafplio because I wasn’t expecting it.

I am currently investigating hired driver options so we can make the most of the daylight available and not worry about navigating/driving in the dark

We went to Nemea when visiting Nafplio and really enjoyed it.

*I have shared this option with my kids as an alternative, and my instinct is also to leave out Olympia and Meteora as well. *

I would definitely leave Olympia out.

We loved Meteora but it is about five hours from Athens.

With winter light, I would seriously consider staying first night near airport in Athen and then set off first thing in the morning. You could do 3 nights Nafplio, 3 nights Athens, and then if you have three more nights with staying first night near airport-Delphi 1 night and Meteora 2 nights.

I will tell you though that there are ski resorts near Delphi so it is mountainous and roads could be bad in December.

Helpful, thank you!

You also could spend 4 nights Athens, 4 nights Nafplio, and one night near airport when you arrive. Or take a night away from either Athens or Nafplio and add Delphi if you are comfortable with mountain driving in winter.

This is basically where I have landed. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post!

I read a trip report on Trip advisor where person had driver take them to nafplio and then they later rented a car. They went back to Athens by bus. I don’t know if that would work for you but thought I would let you know another option. It also might be possible to return car to Athens, although it may cost you a lot. Greece has lots of local companies who don’t have a presence in multiple locations .

I read a trip report on Trip advisor where person had driver take them to nafplio and then they later rented a car. They went back to Athens by bus.

Thank you @BethFl for this idea

I have a question along this same subject, but a little different. We are traveling to Greece for 9 days (without the travel days). We are starting in Athens to catch our breath and get our footing for a few days. 3 nights in Athens, 2 nights in Kalabaka, then what would you suggest? I am thinking a night somewhere between Kalabaka and Napflio, then 2 nights in Napflio, and then our final night back in Athens before we fly out early the next morning. Does this seem like too much transit time for the time we are in Greece? Would you have any other thoughts? We are pretty open to suggestions?
Thanks so much!