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What the heck happened to German trains?

Used to be punctual to the second and incredibly reliable. Right now I'm sitting on a 20 minute late train to Mannheim, where i would miss my connection except that train is now flying through Mannheim station, not stopping. I'm quite screwed, jet lagged and looking at a loooong night trying to get to my hotel in Offenburg.

And the rails in general feel wavier?

More and more the above has been my experience on German trains. Maybe I'm getting unlucky, but it seems like a new normal?

Is DB going to die hunde? If so why?

Posted by
353 posts

Oh dear! Hope you get to where you're trying to go without too much trials. Did you even find out why the train just sped through Mannheim without stopping?

Posted by
3122 posts

Hank: I haven't been to Germany since I lived there from 1987-1999. Public transportation was always on time and so impressive with efficiency, but that was a quarter-century ago.

Was there an option to jump off of the train as it sped through Mannheim? Like in a western movie?

Posted by
7942 posts

This is troubling. You’d be better off on a Mannheim Steamroller.

Is there a conductor who can help with a Plan B? Can you get off at an upcoming station, to get back to where you want to be and continue on your journey?

Posted by
7072 posts

It's one thing for trains to be late. But trains simply DO NOT fail to stop at scheduled stops like MANNHEIM Hbf, a major train hub! Everything stops there! Is it possible you dozed off for the stop? Or you are not quite there yet? Or that you blew through a suburban Mannheim station where no stop is scheduled for your train, like Mannheim-Waldhof? Unless maybe there's some sort of emergency underway, I say it's one of these other possibilities.

Posted by
8022 posts

German trains are definitely not as efficient as they used to be years ago, but they're still not as bad as other countries, imo. When I was there last year, I had a few problems with delayed trains and trains that didn't stop but overall, most trains were on time. I think there are a few statistics floating around here about how the trains have become less reliable over the years - maybe 15-20%?

There should be more trains coming through that will go to Offenburg, though, so I'm hoping you make it! Do you have the DB Navigator app on your phone? If so, check it as it will usually put the train status on there and if there's something going on with a particular train. And maybe you're way ahead of me. :)

Posted by
1951 posts

Russ today ICE 373 blew off Mannheim for the sake of expediency. I was ready to run, but the conductor said forget it, high speed train has more important connections to make and must therefore skip stopping at Mannheim. Upside in her opinion was no running necessary.

My 2 hour trip has now ballooned to 6.5.

Thanks for the advice all about finding connections. I have the DB App etc, and checked in with the ticket office. I'm on the fastest routing, fingers crossed it doesn't go farther south.

My question remains - what happened to German trains? I hear Germans complain about DB nowadays. Back in the day it was hard to differentiate from Swiss trains, but now I swear I have better luck with SNCF than DB.

Anyway all in all could be worse, the S-Bahn is slow but not too busy, and a chance to sample train station junk food for dinner :).

Posted by
2502 posts

Basically what happened is decades of underinvestment. In exchange for allowing Germany to reunify it had to accept the Euro. And that gave Germany's advantage away.
Couple that with an obsession with balanced budgets and the country has gone trough an austerity regime for decades. When it comes to investment in public infrastructure Italy and Spain do it way better than Germany at the moment.

Posted by
7942 posts

I hope the wavier tracks sensation isn’t an ongoing indication of future trouble.

Interesting “solution.” If a train’s late, skip the next stop so it’ll be on time for a future stop. Never mind the passengers who paid to get off at the first one !?!

Posted by
1951 posts

I'm not actually sure if the ICE went through Mannheim but didn't stop, or bypassed Mannheim to make up time. Either way same effect, and there was basically no advanced warning.

Posted by
3008 posts

Hank, with some understanding for your situation I am not sure if sharing your frustration with others in that way is covered by forum rules. For sure it does not change your current situation.

Regarding your question I recommend to read the explanation of punctuality values June 2023 by Deutsche Bahn. DeepL will help translating.

Good luck.

Posted by
1951 posts

Well I wouldn't want to break the rules, but I'm pretty sure observing that things seem to have gone downhill with a particular public transit system isn't an infraction? The webmaster recently requested that posters not point out rules violations but rather just report them, so posters don't go back and forth. In that spirit I'll note that you think there might be problem and leave it at that.

Posted by
1951 posts

Right now I'm on the train, listening to a couple of Germans telling a French mom and daughter how to get to Strasbourg via Offenburg. The French mom asked about "controls," because she's been diverted so many times she doesn't think her tickets will work anymore. Both Germans said at almost the same time "don't worry, controls are finished today." I think it's been such a screwed up day on DB that they are no longer checking tickets, just trying to let all the delayed travelers get to their destination.

My overriding point is in a lot of time on German trains over many years, I never remember as many late trains, delays and cancelled trains as in the last few years. In the future on DB I'm allowing more time and not being as ambitious with booking multiple tight connections.

Posted by
1951 posts

MarkK the punctuality survey is interesting. The punctuality rate of long distance trains is abysmal, more than one in three significantly late. No wonder there is cascading breakdown. A station agent told me today "I recommend you only use local trains." I thought it was strange advice but he definitely had it right.

Posted by
7072 posts

Hank, I think the chances of skipping Mannheim as you did are incalculably small. To be so late there must have been some emergency. I once had a train cancelled mid-trip. Someone had committed suicide on the tracks in front of the previous train. Perhaps it was something similar.

I don't think incidents like this one are indicative of the overall state of the system, which may indeed have declined over the years. It is demonstrably true that on-time performance has suffered to some degree in the long-distance sector. Performance there is measured in MINUTES late, however. Not hours.

Posted by
7072 posts

I read this on the timetables earlier this afternoon for your route.

"Bridge damage: On the route Frankfurt(Main)Süd - Frankfurt(M) Flughafen Fernbf between Forsthaus (Frankfurt) and Frankfurt(Main)Hbf."

3rd box on this page announces detours and the dropping of stops.

https://www.bahn.de/service/fahrplaene/aktuell

Posted by
1951 posts

Chatting with locals now. According to them the problem is Stuttgart construction and summer crowds.

Silver lining was a very nice chat with a group of nice people on diverse topics. What's your delay story is a great icebreaker, and definitely in tune with RS' dictum "revel in the pits" :)

Posted by
1951 posts

3rd box on this page announces detours and the dropping of stops.

Would have been nice to know this ahead of time! - none of that info flowed through to the app or online schedules. Even in the platform only announced over the loudspeaker and only in German.

Posted by
7916 posts

Interesting “solution.” If a train’s late, skip the next stop so it’ll be on time for a future stop. Never mind the passengers who paid to get off at the first one !?!

A very similar thing happens quite frequently on my part of Northern Rail, in the UK. Admittedly, not without warning. You are usually told before the train starts it's journey. But several times I have had to get off a train mid journey, when it is suddenly announced that the train is running late, so has to skip multiple stops to try to recover the schedule. Where I live that can quickly become a 60 to 120 minute delay, especially if you were intending to join at a skipped station. My local station is one that is regularly skipped.

Posted by
10213 posts

I have to admit that living in France, I dream of German trains as something to be aspired to. Then I planned a trip last summer that took me through Germany on the way to and from Denmark - and learned some of the issues with German trains today. I was shocked. Another idol, tarnished. I am used to French trains being bad - I never dreamed that German ones could have so many issues. Luckily I didn't encounter anything TOO bad, and made all my connections (partially luck and partially following Man in Seat 61 recommendations for manually lengthening the connection time minimum that the app is searching for you), but it made me a bit nervous before it was all done.

Posted by
1951 posts

Hank, I think the chances of skipping Mannheim as you did are
incalculably small. To be so late there must have been some emergency.

You would think. But the locals I talked to today and told me it's a fairly regular occurrence, and re-emphasized that somehow Stuttgart is to blame. Poor Stuttgart, blamed like Canada in the South Park movie ;)

Performance there is measured in MINUTES late, however. Not hours.

True enough! The survey measures more than 5 minutes late and more than 15 minutes late. The slightly more than one and three I cited above is for the more than 5 minutes late category.

But more than 15 minutes late is almost one in five at 81.4%.

If you're booking two changes linking together long distance trains, you have quite a good chance that something's going to go wrong if you don't leave, as wisely suggested above, a bit longer connection times.

I can't remember the default layover for Bahn.com searches ... 7 or 8 minutes I think? I book a lot of connections under 10 minutes - I might be too old at this point to consider myself. spry, but I'm an organized traveler and no ahead of time exactly to where I need to hustle to get on the next train. But if you clip 4 or 5 minutes off of an 8 or 9 minute transfer time, thinks get pretty hairy.

Anyway, the way I remember it from 20 or 30 years ago seemed like you could set your watch to German trains. I for one have lost a bit if confidence .....

Posted by
7072 posts

"it's a fairly regular occurrence,"

Which "it" do you mean? Delays? Sure, 1 in 5, like you said. Skipping a major train hub altogether? Gotta say, I'm really struggling with that as a "common occurrence." I'd like to see THAT data. It's not like I hold DB stock. It just doesn't mesh at all with my experience over the years.

Posted by
7072 posts

"If you're booking two changes linking together long distance trains, you have quite a good chance that something's going to go wrong if you don't leave, as wisely suggested above, a bit longer connection times."

THIS does in fact occur with some frequency. Longer connection times are a practical approach that I use as well. Actually, I take it a little further sometimes. If I can find some sightseeing excuse in the layover town or a similar reason to extend my layover, I might schedule in as much as 1-3 hours of down time.

Posted by
1951 posts

Which "it" do you mean? Delays? Sure, 1 in 5, like you said. Skipping
a major train hub altogether? Gotta say, I'm really struggling with
that as a "common occurrence." I'd like to see THAT data. It's not
like I hold DB stock. It just doesn't mesh at all with my experience
over the years.

I can't give you clarity I'm afraid. My only source of information are three German people on the train I asked today. Could be regional, or they might have been exaggerating. I think you are right it's not a "common occurrence.". "Fairly regular" though might be fair, if pretty squishy (comets are fairly regular ...).

Posted by
496 posts

Hank…we also have been on German trains today. Fortunately nothing as frustrating as your situation. But did take trains on our Konus Pass from Gengenbach to Offenburg and Freiburg. Just leisure trips so no time concerns. However there were delays and noticed reason also saying due the repair of bridge damage. Also never once did anyone ever check our tickets? Train staff just bipassing seated passengers quickly going down isle. That seemed odd. Tomorrow we plan to go to Strasbourg and hope it all works out. We commented that European trains this trip in Italy, Austria and now Germany are all less effiiciate as we found before.

Posted by
353 posts

I can’t blame them that they only announced the problems in German. It is Germany and part of being in a non-English country should be the expectation of not having everything catered to in English. I guess I’m saying that we shouldn’t travel around the world expecting to be communicated in English.

Posted by
7942 posts

You are usually told before the train starts it's journey. But several times I have had to get off a train mid journey, when it is suddenly announced that the train is running late, so has to skip multiple stops to try to recover the schedule. Where I live that can quickly become a 60 to 120 minute delay, especially if you were intending to join at a skipped station. My local station is one that is regularly skipped.

I’m sorry that your local station doesn’t get more respect, isn31c ! At least the bypassed stops are usually announced ahead of time. Not that I exactly would condone such behavior, but I can imagine some disgruntled passenger trying to “hijack” a train and force a stop where it’s scheduled. People who can’t get off are being held hostage. Or, if you have to unload early, you’ve got to figure out how to reach your destination - that’s your problem.

The USA certainly doesn’t have the public transportation infrastructure that Europe has enjoyed for decades. We have such a car culture, and that certainly comes with its own issues, but does offer some control about where to go, and when. Apparently the trains in Germany have reached a point where maintaining the high standards is taking more effort (and money)? It’s hard to stay on top indefinitely, it would seem.

Posted by
1141 posts

My Deutsche Bahn Hamburg to Copenhagen/Kastrup train last week had at least 2 cars with non-functioning air-conditioning. There were attempts to get it working, but only after the Danish crew took over at the border. Eventually, it was suggested to people in those cars that they could disembark at a couple different stations and take the next IC train. They were given full details of the time of the next train and arrival times in Copenhagen. I don't think many got off the train. The next "fix" was to close the two cars with no air - yellow tape was used to seal the doors - and tell the people on those cars to distribute themselves elsewhere on the train. Announcements were made in Danish, German, and English.

The bathroom of the 1st class carriage was locked and marked "not working". I explored the next two 2nd class cars finding similar locked bathrooms, then gave up.

The train also ran a bit behind schedule. Not terribly significant, but they shortened some the longer station stops to try to catch up time.

Unlike the OP, I was not personally impacted by the problems. but like the OP, I was surprised. I also had previously experienced only impressive German efficiency. (last train trip several years back, before Covid)

Posted by
7304 posts

The Frankfurt-Basel corridor is especially prone to delays, there are just so many trains there that the slightest issue can really spiral out of control. I've run into many train issues in that part of Germany...
Track quadrupling work is in progress but in typical German fashion (think "Berlin airport" or "Stuttgart underground station") completion is not expected until the 2030s.

Posted by
14980 posts

I would have told that French mom there is no need to take the train for the Offenburg-Strasbourg connection and the price is ca. 12 Euro.

Posted by
1951 posts

I can’t blame them that they only announced the problems in German. It
is Germany and part of being in a non-English country should be the
expectation of not having everything catered to in English. I guess
I’m saying that we shouldn’t travel around the world expecting to be
communicated in English.

Of course. I wasn't complaining, just stating a fact. There's no obligation for them to communicate in English. Given that probably one in five passengers doesn't speak German, It would be practical, but there's no obligation, nor expectation on my part.

Posted by
799 posts

We were really disappointed in our train travel May 2 this year. We paid for a direct no transfer trip from Amsterdam Centraal to Berlin Hbf with reserved seats. Our experience was anything but direct or reserved. Our seats were reserved when we boarded in Amsterdam but just before we entered Germany our ticket checker told us that we will be transferring several times to different trains. Their announcements were very confusing as they kept changing the stations where we would be changing trains. They told us "don't worry you will get to Berlin". Our last transfer was at Hanover where they told us the train would be double decker with fewer seats. "Grab any seat you can get". It became a mad cattle car experience. Many people including us did not find seats and we stood near the restroom for 2 hours with some people sitting on the floor. We arrived in Berlin 2 hours late after several transfers. That was a miserable experience considering we paid for a direct trip with no transfers and reserved seats. We did receive warnings before boarding in Amsterdam about the train changes but no offer of compensation for the rather high price we had paid. We weren't advised to postpone to another day. The trip was incorrectly marketed. My partner said never foist that on him again.

Posted by
1951 posts

After a highly eventful morning ride Offenburg to Strasbourg (thigh deep water canal crossing or miss my train,!), I'm on the TGV to Rennes across a table from a young German couple who came from outside of Frankfurt yesterday. They took the Flix bus. I asked why.

"DB has too much problems and we could not miss the TGV because of our bike reservation."

"After DB privatized they want to make money. You can have good expensive trains, or isht cheap trains. But somehow we have now isht expensive trains."

"Once we get to France we do not worry about the trains, their infrastructure is better."

Anecdotal, but also completely unsolicited other than simply asking "why did you choose the bus yesterday?"

I definitely do think this attitude might be regional. As noted above by another poster, all the locals I've surveyed live in the Frankfurt - Basel corridor.

Posted by
7072 posts

We arrived in Berlin 2 hours late after several transfers. That was a
miserable experience considering we paid for a direct trip with no
transfers and reserved seats. We did receive warnings before boarding
in Amsterdam about the train changes but no offer of compensation for
the rather high price we had paid.

I have no doubt you were miserable. But stuff DOES happen sometimes, no matter how you travel. A couple of observations...

  • My travel group of 5 and their passenger van were trapped for nearly that much time on a freeway in the Netherlands as we tried to get to our accommodations in Volendam. No announcements, no compensation for the rental car or gas, no bathroom, no food or drink options, and no alternative vehicles offered to us.

  • My travel group of 3 once got stranded in St. Louis for 3 days when our connecting flight to London was cancelled. No compensation for the London hotel night we lost, and the closest we got to London in the end was Paris. 2-hour flight delays and cancellations these days have unfortunately become somewhat routine.

  • Compensation for the unusual delay WAS AVAILABLE in your case. Had you not made it to Berlin that day, accommodation would also have been available to you under your passenger rights:

https://www.bahn.com/en/booking-information/passenger-rights/passenger-rights-in-rail-transport

  • It's unfortunate that your ticket was so pricey. Did you buy from DB? DB does offer incredibly inexpensive tickets these days if you are savvy about purchasing them. I have a window open right now for a direct train trip between Amsterdam and Berlin on September 11 for €49.90. The same train on December 7 is €37.90. These Saver Fare tickets offer the same passenger rights as full-price tickets for cancellations or delays like the one you had - and of course the cheaper the ticket, the lower the financial loss, if any.
Posted by
7072 posts

@Hank: Germans have reasons to complain about the measurable decline in service recently. OTOH, whining about DB has been the official national pastime in Germany throughout my decades of experience with DB. In those "glory years" mentioned on this thread, back when punctuality was king, my glowing assessments of the train system were routinely met with raised Teutonic eyebrows and questions about my sanity. Saying anything nice about DB was clearly bad form. They didn't understand that I had nothing to compare it to except Greyhound and Continental Trailways.

Posted by
604 posts

We had very good experiences with German trains in our 2019 trip, but not our 2022 trip, but that was mostly along the Frankfurt Basel corridor. Our Basel to Freiburg im Briesgau, and our Baden Baden to Zurich via Basel trains were substantially late, plus our regional train day trip to Heidelberg from Baden Baden was chock full of lateness. Our Freiburg to Baden Baden trip was on time, so we were 1 for 4 that trip.

Meanwhile during our Swiss part of the trip last year, armed with our Swiss travel pass (15 day consecutive version where the price per day plummets) we took many trains, and had basically no delays.

Posted by
799 posts

I have no doubt you were miserable. But stuff DOES happen sometimes,
no matter how you travel. A couple of observations...

My travel group of 5 and their passenger van were trapped for nearly that much time on a freeway in the Netherlands as we tried to
get to our accommodations in Volendam. No announcements, no
compensation for the rental car or gas, no bathroom, no food or drink
options, and no alternative vehicles offered to us.

My travel group of 3 once got stranded in St. Louis for 3 days when our connecting flight to London was cancelled. No compensation
for the London hotel night we lost, and the closest we got to London
in the end was Paris. 2-hour flight delays and cancellations these
days have unfortunately become somewhat routine.

We've traveled for over 5 decades and of course know that "things happen". The thread topic is German trains so I didn't mention that for instance we were once detained in London when Delta canceled our flight. Somehow that didn't seem appropriate to this discussion.

Compensation for the unusual delay WAS AVAILABLE in your case. Had you
not made it to Berlin that day, accommodation would also have been
available to you under your passenger rights:

I was not discussing compensation for non-arrival. My point is that we did not receive what was marketed to us. We chose to pay for a direct non-transfer trip with reserved seats and clearly we did not receive that. We would have been less disappointed had we known that we'd have multiple transfers, standing room only in a very crowded tight space and that paying for reserved seats was pointless. We really did pay too much for what we received. A flight would have been less stressful and we would have chosen differently had the marketing been closer to the truth. We've since learned that our experience has been quite common in the past year or so.

It's unfortunate that your ticket was so pricey. Did you buy from DB?
DB does offer incredibly inexpensive tickets these days if you are
savvy about purchasing them.

We purchased from www.bahn.de using advice from "The Man in Seat 61" and various contributors to this forum. I was well-versed in all of the options involved. Of course our tickets would been much cheaper had I purchased them much farther in advance but that wouldn't have been wise for us as the trip was between 2 tours with too many "covid" unknowns. It also would have been cheaper if we didn't choose to reserve seats as clearly that was totally unnecessary since there were no reserved seats or even seats for that matter.

I wished I had learned about the experiences others have had on this trip in the past year before my decision. The real experiences are quite different from what is described when purchasing the tickets. I would have made completely different plans. We have a right to discuss our experience and we aren't required to shrug them off. Hopefully others may benefit knowing about it.

Posted by
7072 posts

We have a right to discuss our experience

?? Well, of course you do. I'm glad you did.

Hopefully others may benefit knowing about it.

Absolutely. But in order to come to bad v. good generalizations about DB, those others need to contextualize those individual experiences.

That's what the on-time performance data help accomplish. "Hmm, this happened to Silas... how likely is it to happen to me?"

I wished I had learned about the experiences others have had on this
trip in the past year before my decision.

OK, but for a fair comparison with flying, you'd also need to look at the data and the miserable experiences of others of that flight experience too, right? Comparing DB train travel to other transport options (like car travel, the obvious ground-travel alternative) is also in order if some forum thread makes the train sound overly scary. The costs, the relative safety, the compensation options for poor performance... all seem very relevant.

What would also be interesting in this discussion would be to hear people's anecdotal Amtrak or SNCF experiences... and for contextualization, a data-based comparison of DB service/convenience/pricing with that of AMTRAK or the SNCF. Some bad experience on a French train ride might be commonplace, or one in a million. An accurate picture of the total French train experience with the German one WOULD indeed help us better understand how bad or how good DB actually is.

Posted by
636 posts

"I would have told that French mom there is no need to take the train for the Offenburg-Strasbourg connection and the price is ca. 12 Euro."

Fred, what do you mean by this? I'll be in Strasbourg in October and planned to do a day trip or two to Germany, probably via Offenburg.

I'm glad this topic came up. It gives me a chance to prepare for the day trip(s) I hope to do into Germany. When I accidentally got off at the wrong stop in Italy last year, I kind of panicked at first and suddenly felt uncertain and insecure. Knowing things could potentially go wrong (beyond the general expectation) is helpful to me.

Posted by
7072 posts

It occurs to me that the DB on-time performance chart might not be totally clear to others as it's in German.

https://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte-6878476

All trains considered, 91% of them are "on time" (no more than 5 minutes after scheduled arrival.) If the threshold of 15 minutes after the scheduled hour is applied, then on average, 98% of them achieve that.

The failures DB is experiencing are largely just with the long-distance trains. On average, however, 85% of them make it within 15 minutes of scheduled arrival. Not really a crisis as I see it, but surely problematic when connecting to other trains.

Posted by
496 posts

Had good experience today from Gengenbach to Offenburg and destination Strasbourg…which we loved! Trains were w/I 5 minutes of schedules. Only problems were thunderstorms and heavy downpours. Glad we were prepared…but does affect your walk of the city.

Posted by
293 posts

It is funny to me that people want so fiercely to defend DB and German trains. While I recognise that the trains are much better than in America or even our neighbours like France and Poland, the truth is that the system is having big difficulties.

We in Germany read near-daily headlines about the catastrophic problems with DB, often discussed as a crisis that threatens the stability of the system, and that is borne from years of chronic underinvestment in infrastructure. There are major plans for sanitation of the system, and large-scale investment, but it is not going to happen soon enough.

Local trains are (on average) better about being on-time than distance ones, but this is highly variable: In the region where I live, the local train concerns actually have worse on-time ratings as the DB, and the very massive delays are frequent.

The strech of the track that Hank was on is particularly bad right now. I mean, skipping Mannheim is surprising, but having multiple things go wrong on a train trip in this area is, sadly, not. I actually took a train on this same route (also a distance train by DB) on Sunday, that was nearly 90 minutes late, and I was not at all surprised.

Also, yes: announcements are often just in German, especially when the situation is particularly complex (I feel that the conductors are all fine with the simple english that they say every day, but get less sure when they have to describe different situations). I would suggest that people always simply turn to someone near them and ask what was said.

Posted by
10213 posts

I really appreciate your insight, Azra. Thank you for adding valuable context (as so many other posters have done on this thread, which I appreciate Hank starting).

Posted by
293 posts

Yes, Kim, I want to be clear, I do not mean to criticise those posters defending DB, really I do not. And, everyone should know that complaining (especially about DB, but about other things as well) is a national sport in Germany, and we are very good at it.

But really the situation with DB and the track infrastructure in Germany in general has been the subject of much high-level discussion and political planning in the last year or so, as the real scale of the issues has become more clear. This is not just Germans complaining about DB because we always do - this is worse than it has been in a long time.

I don't think that this is anything that tourists need to be worried about, exactly, and I don't want to make people afraid of DB trains or anything like that. They still work very well much of the time. But for those who want to dig a bit deeper, or who are looking to understand the experiences that they are having on the trains, I do think this context is helpful.

Posted by
144 posts

Quite the bash fest in this post. Yes DB has issues but what exactly is expected here? I lived in Germany for more than a decade, had good trips, used long distance trains for both business and leisure, got good bargains with a Bahn Card and so on. (And had crappy trips!!!!)

I still recommend train service in much of Europe with caveats/warnings. So it still comes back to what is being accomplished in this thread????

Posted by
14980 posts

Silas Marner's experience with DB is pretty much the same I had with DB in June. The ICE trains I took were most late. If that didn't happen to you, then it happended to someone else, when you listen to the announcements focusing on any of these words, "verspätet, " "Verspätung," or " verzoegert." I stood for 2 hours too but there are better spots than near the WC, if you can help it. I wasn't the only one standing, just the oldest. That particular ICE was just jammed packed. True, I did not have seat reservation, ie, I gambled and lost. Still, I saw an occurrence on the coach I was in, which I had never ever seen in any train that took seat reservations. This was on a Rail Jet , people with seat seat reservations, some of them , never made it to their seats, which were occupied by someone else, so getting a seat reservation proved to be useless. They ended up standing for at least 1.5 hours.

Bottom line, if the ICE I'm taking is late, 15 mins or more, I'm not surprised, you accept it.

Posted by
14980 posts

@ KRS....The easiest way to get to Strasbourg from Offenburg is to take their version of the S-Bahn, cost is ca. 12 Euro. Taking the TGV or ICE means mandatory seat reservations, which in 2nd class is 17 Euro. With Eurail Pass even more dicey, since you might run into the Pass quota if your departure on a TGV. You avoid that by taking a ICE one, if it exists. No mandatory seat reservation taking taking local transport from Offenburg.

I would have skipped going through Mannheim Hbf (never liked Mannheim Hbf anyway), all together even it meant back tracking to Frankfurt Hbf , where I would have taken a less congested route (relatively) Frankfurt to Karlsruhe, then change to Offenburg.

Posted by
14980 posts

@ KRS.... If you happen to go through Stuttgart Hbf on your Oct trip, I would suggest avoiding that. Choose another route. Certain train stations in Germany I avoid going through, if it can be helped, and Stuttgart is most definitely one of them, if you're NOT quite familiar with the present station.

Posted by
2480 posts

Basically what happened is decades of underinvestment.

To expand on this point a bit more from the perspective of a long-time frequent bahn traveller and ProBahn supporter: the causes of the present state of the railroads are in fact predominantly political.

In the beginning, in the 1990s, there was the politically imposed neglect of the network in the west in favour of the reconstruction of the desolate network in the former GDR, so that necessary investments in the west were also omitted.

Around the turn of the millennium, the then social democratic government tried to get rid of the Bahn, which was constantly piling up new debts, by privatizing it. To this end a manager was appointed, whose greatest merit was his political affinity to the governing party, but who was otherwise an expert in the concrete market. He, in turn, hired a new management preferably consisting of people from the Lufthansa and other airlines; hardly anyone understood anything about reailroads. This group presented a plan to largely abandon the rail network except for a kind of ring Munich-Stuttgart-Frankfurt-Cologne-Hamburg--Berlin-Leizip- Nuremberg-Munich, with short branch lines from these hubs into the countryside. Public resistance was insurmountable, and so a Plan B was implemented to improve the railroad's balance sheet for a stock market launch, namely, the elimination of all supposedly superfluous infrastructure, including the abandonment of most of the station buildings and, above all, seemingly superfluous tracks and switches between major stations. The latter operation eliminated most of the redundancy in the system, resulting in the now typical phenomenon that a slightly delayed long-distance train cannot overtake an S-Bahn ahead of it for up to 30 km and thus adds to its delay instead of reducing it. In addition, investments in the rolling stock of the freight branch were cut. In contrast, there was a political initiative to expand local transport, so that today, compared to the turn of the millennium, at least twice as many local trains are running on the network, and this on a reduced infrastructure, resulting in a constant congestion of the main parts of the network.

Third, lack of control. The company DB-Netz, which operates the network, does not see itself as a service provider for the infrastructure rather than as a freely acting operator in a wide variety of markets, and the owner, the federal government, does not prevent it from doing so. And when it comes to rail network maintenance, it has developed an almost perfidious tactic. Instead of maintaining the network out of the (high!) revenues for its use, it regularly plays for time with pending repairs, until finally the federal government takes over the construction costs out of fear of public protests. As a result there are numerous completly unneccesary disruptions in the network. However, DB-Netz have gone a bit too far with this game, so that efforts are now finally being made to return the network back into public ownership.

There is a large number of construction sites at the moment, which hopefully will improve the situation at some point in the future; at the moment, long-distance traffic is suffering the most (punctuality rate just over 60%) while local traffic is more or less stable (over 90%). For the next few years there is only one remedy - allow more time for transfers. And everybody should reclaim rigorously the compensation that is owed for a delay of more than 60 minutes, because if we don't light a fire under the railroad bosses' asses (pardon!), they'll continue sitting on it unimpressed.

Posted by
2502 posts

"We paid for a direct no transfer trip from Amsterdam Centraal to Berlin Hbf with reserved seats."

On of the things you have to be aware of is that trains function very different from airlines. When you buy a train ticket what you buy is actually not a train ticket. You will not see "train ticket" mentioned on the piece of paper you recieve. What you bought was a service to be transported from Amsterdam to Berlin, not a place in a particular vehicle. So that you end up being transported in a different vehicle, at a different time is not that uncommon.

When I was young we bought train tickets to the other side of Europe without even knowing the schedule. We just had a ticket that allowed us to travel, eg. From Brugge to Salzburg, and we just hopped from train to train till we were there.

Which is why we keep telling people that get confused because the train they selected during booking was cancelled to do nothing. A train cancellation does not cancel your ticket. You still can travel, on other trains.

Posted by
2480 posts

A train cancellation does not cancel your ticket.

In a certain sense, it upgrades it. Bought a cheap sparpreis ticket for €19.90? Now you can travel at your convenience, as if you bought a flex fare ticket for, say, €89.

Posted by
7072 posts

@ KRS:

For your October day trip from Strasbourg into Germany via Offenburg... There is a special DAY PASS for border-crossing day-trippers like you. The EUROPASS 24h gets you to Offenburg - AND BACK - for only €9.60. With a travel partner it costs €14.50 (known as the "family" version.)

https://www.cts-strasbourg.eu/en/online-store/fares/tickets/

Click on the "Departement, regional, and cross-border..." link at that page, then scroll down for information.

I don't know your day trip destination, but it's possible that the Europass 24h alone is all you need to get there. The map on the linked "cts-strasbourg" pdf page that follows will show the OTHER destinations NEAR Offenburg which are permissible with this ticket. The numerous zones in green beyond Strasbourg are all fair game with the Europass 24h, which opens up certain Black Forest towns like these for your day trip at no additional cost:

Gengenbach
Haslach
Hausach
Gutach (Black Forest Open air museum and summer bobsled)
Wolfach
Hornberg

https://www.cts-strasbourg.eu/export/sites/default/pdf/05BoutiqueEnLigne/Tarifs/tgo_europass-folder_2018-V2_web_JUIN2018.pdf

Any train journeys you take to the towns named will be by regional train. Use the DB page to find schedules.

Posted by
799 posts

@WengenK - I do understand that I didn't purchase a paper "ticket". That's simply a figure of speech...a convention. I will explain what I purchased one more time. DB online offered us 2 trip choices. One was a direct trip with no transfers that took a few more minutes than the higher speed option with one transfer at Hanover. We chose the direct trip with no transfers and the higher priced reserved seat option. What you need to understand is that we actually received a trip with multiple transfers, no reserved seats, long delays, confused messages about the transfer locations and standing room only for several hours. That is not what we were offered and not what we chose. That's disappointing as I didn't choose (or pay for) a trip with randomly occurring transfers and no seats. It's not an experience we would choose to repeat.

@Fred, there were no better places for us to stand as we were trapped and unable to move due to the crowded condition. We're a fit thin couple but we really could not maneuver into a different location.

Posted by
496 posts

We understand what you are saying Silas. Just now got off an Ice train from Offenburg to Frankfort airport. My husband paid extra for reserved seats as it appeared to be a busy route when he checked.. Well…we got no seats. Our seats never showed reserved on the seatbacks so we lost them. Very….Crowded. Stood between train cars. It’s not that far but train was delayed 1/2 hr for animals on track…so took longer. We are both fit early 70’s. We managed. Can’t imagine this for older people. With us standing were 2 younger women who lost their reserved seats. They were told that happened because they went to dining car for over 15 min.
This has been a learning experience. Next time we will be more realistic with timeframe needed and stay flexible and prepared for these issues. Thankful we weren’t dependent on departures for flights or scheduled siteseeing tours/trips. Worth being made aware…and I am not trashing train travel!

Posted by
14980 posts

@ Silas Marner.....I know exactly the predicament you were in, trapped, squished in like sardines (or herring), just hoping to find a spot where you can stand without too much discomfort for the next 1-2 hours. I was in that fix last month in Germany too, certainly not the only one standing and not the first time .

That happened on pre-pandemic trips too. One just puts up with it when riding the ICE, it happens. Luckily, my luggage found space on a overhead rack, so no concern there, just no unreserved seat available. This happened a couple of days after landing in FRA, I don't get jet lag, and always have a paper ticket, paper seat reservation, but not this time.

Posted by
496 posts

Sorry to see this sla. Frustrating! Hope nothing is missed! I misspelled Frankfurt. My bad!

Posted by
2502 posts

"Our seats never showed reserved on the seatbacks so we lost them"

If you had those seats reserved you could just have claimed them. It is not necessary for the reservations to be displayed. That is. why you have a reservation receipt.

Posted by
7072 posts

I have witnessed a few on-train interactions where both parties claimed to have reserved the same seat. The seat numbers were identical, but one of the parties was in the wrong carriage.

Posted by
496 posts

We tried our best to explain our reservation and showed them on our phone to train staffer. She just shrugged her shoulders. There seemed to be so much chaos and so packed hard to even move. It was easier to just give up and stand.

Posted by
293 posts

all2alb: That is frustrating, sorry. I don't want to make you feel bad about this, but am just curious. Did you ask the people sitting in your reserved seats to move? That is usually how this works -- even if the seat reservation signs are working (which they fairly often are not), people sometimes will be sitting there before you arrive, and you have to ask them directly to move. Usually, people do it without complaint. Sometimes someone difficult will ask to see your reservation. Sometimes, more rarely, the person sitting there will claim to have reserved the same seats. This, as said above, is usually resolved by checking the wagon number -- one of the two parties is probably in the wrong wagon. It is extremely rare for this process to need to involve train staff -- this is generally all done by the passengers among themselves.

But yeah: when the trains are crowded and confusing and things are all in German, I can totally understand just giving up and standing. Sorry you had a difficult trip!

Also, although this is rare: If (for example) the train that you were travelling on was not the model of train originally scheduled for the route and had a fundamentally different configuration, it is also possible that DB cancelled all reservations on the train, and all seats were simply treated as unreserved. This has happened to me one or two times, so I know it is possible.

Posted by
496 posts

We survived. Just was hard to even push back through the car to challenge those sitting in our seats. Wasn’t worth it and we are not very assertive in other countries with our lack of language. Will know better next time! Live and learn!

Posted by
496 posts

After speaking with German friends…. the weeks we were in Germany 2 wks ago…trains were so packed because of school break timing and so many local people on holiday. Soooo…they say….We hit it at the peak of high season! Saw many people on board with their bikes, much luggage, their dogs and many children and families.

Posted by
14980 posts

If there is no indication on the seat or above it, and a problem arises, I show who wants to see confirmation the paper seat reservation, always have that handy to pull out....no phone. There was an encounter this time when occupying a seat a German woman had reserved, (I had reached the seat before she it) , I told her no indication of that above the seat.

She said it hadn't come on yet. Literally a second or two later, I saw she was right. So, I got bumped. She did show me her phone, I wasn't going to be bothered, took her word for it and politely gave up seat, as it was hers anyway.

On that route I lucked out, a seat was available across from that woman when I asked.

Posted by
1951 posts

Wait Fred, are you saying that if someone show you a train seat reservation on their phone, you won't vacate the seat? Only if they have paper?

Probably 90% of people use ticket on the phone only nowadays ....

Posted by
14980 posts

@ Hank...I am saying if the person presents the phone to me regarding the seat in question, I'm not going to contest it, and will obviously vacate the seat. I don't believe in causing a scene, (Theater machen) , totally purposeless, would rather yield instead. It has never come to anything contentious.

I've been bumped and I've bumped people too, always very civil. When I buy a seat reservation, I get the paper copy.

Posted by
1951 posts

Got it thanks. No making of the theater :)

Posted by
1141 posts

The Wall Street Journal ran a front page article about timeliness, actually the lack thereof, of DB trains earlier this week.