Train vs. Car Economics (specific example)

Hi Scott- no problem with a posting of any length, as travel planning takes some time and effort, and you have to do what you have to do . . . I just won't be waiting for the paperback edition to come out :-)

Anyway, this may not answer your question directly, but a couple of things to mention:
It's been ages since I've visited Germany, and even longer since having a railpass or flexipass. We've opted for a car on most of our recent trips, while taking the occasional train that didn't warrant having a big pass. If you're going by train but need to get someplace the train doesn't go, a taxi or bus could still be an option once in a while.

As for a car, while it gives you the freedom to go where you want, when you want, and affords a place to stow your luggage, parking it can sometimes be a challenge and an extra expense. The cost of the convenience may or may not be worth it for each individual traveler.

we rented a car in Scotland & Ireland last summer and found it very useful traveling all over the country. It allowed our plans to be relatively fluid which was essential to see everything we wanted to see. My only complaint about the driving was that I did 99% of it (my girlfriend only drove after we visited a few whiskey distilleries where i drank her spirit samples and mine lol) and it became exhausting at the end of the trip. That being said, she was hesitant to drive a manual on the wrong side of the car, and wrong side of the road. I imagine she would probably be more willing to drive in Germany. After reading so much about Germany's railways, I wouldn't mind using that mode of transport, I just want to make sure it is the cheaper option if we are going to sacrifice some of the flexibility of the car.

Have you read Rick's (free) pages about train travel in general? While it's nice to avoid standing in line to buy tickets, it's often not cheaper to buy a railpass. Rick covers this kind of decision in detail. He also talks about safety of luggage under a stretchly luggage cover in a too-small Euro car. You can also get one of his old books in a library and read the rail stuff for free. It's important to be aware of all-reserved trains you might encounter.

Aren't you, potentially, talking about using a day of pass travel ($52) for some $25 trips? Would that bother you? Are day trips (back to the same bed) part of this, or are doing a Rick Steves Four-towns-a-day marathon? To be sure, my personal preference is for the train. I think you are not making sufficient allowance (as many Americans sometimes do) for the tedium and lack of scenery in such a long auto drive. One never has time to make those tempting stops along the way!

Why would a German railpass cover a departure from Copenhagen, Denmark? Maybe from Rostock onwards ... Same issue regarding Austria.

It sounds like you have already bought your plane tickets to Copenhagen. I've never flown internationally from Florida, but we have had some good trips to Germany lately by flying a Lufthansa code-share and changing in Frankfurt or Hamburg. It's hard for me to approve flying to Copenhagen to go to the lower-right corner of Germany. The point is, the connecting flight from Lufthansa seemed to cost almost nothing, when bought as a single "trip".

Years ago, we did Innsbruck-Salzburg-Munich-Vienna with Austrian Airways, because the price was low. And the intial connection Vienna-Innsbruck was a beautiful but scary flight through mountain valleys.

The decision doesn't necessarily hinge on economics, especially since your estimates are so similar. It's more about the way you want to travel. You haven't mentioned any destinations that would really necessitate driving, and driving does take some effort, might leave you more tired after a long day. Flexibility seems to be a priority, even though some more plans will firm up before departure. Either the car or the rail pass are quite flexible.

The German Twin Pass doesn't cover trains on the Danish side of the border, but it does cover the direct, DB-operated bus that departs from Copenhagen to Berlin at 8:45 a.m. Your price quote looks a little off; I see the current rate for 10 days of travel within a month for two traveling together is $616, subject to change with exchange rates. Or further planning may help you decide that fewer train travel days would suffice.

Currently, the Denmark-Germany Saverpass is offering an extra day, so 7 days cost $554. I think this is the one I would choose if traveling roundtrip to Denmark. The price of this two-country pass is expected to rise in January, when it is grouped under the umbrella of "new" two-country Select Passes. See also https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/transportation/trains/germany-rail-passes.

Laura-- am I looking at the wrong site for the train's flex passes? (https://fahrkarten.bahn.de/privatkunde/shop/produktliste.go;jsessionid=Vp7QBav4UIrpR_nBHGU6bTBrr79KpcVICajW3xT3N4e6jo3uoCxA!-1984955212?shopId=.151111c&lang=en&country=overseas&GroupId=651). It's showing the 10 day twin pass for $532E (about $570 USD?). So buying the ICE train from the Bahn website from Copenhagen to Berlin wouldn't be covered on that? I don't think we would need that many days with the flex pass anyways as we hope to stay in Berlin/Munich for a couple nights at a time so we could just use the local trains and buses there.

Tim--yes I think I've read most of Rick's guidance about German train travel as well as read through a lot of the posts on this forum. I think I could drastically reduce the flex passes total days, especially if the Copenhagen-Berlin portion isn't covered in the costs. We haven't bought the plane tickets yet, but RT from Orlando-Copenhagen is only $550 (granted that doesn't include any checked baggage--but were hoping to experiment by packing very very light, per Rick's articles). Like I mentioned in the original post, we definitely want to spend a few nights in Berlin and a few nights in Munich, but beyond that we aren't entirely sure, so I wasn't sure if having the flex pass would be more economical if we decided to stay an extra night or something in either city. I know buying the longer trips on the Bahn (ie: Berlin-Munich) can be pretty expensive buying the day before or day of.

Thanks for all the input so far.

I see that the €523 pass price through DB is already the 2016 price, so nice to have that advance info. At today's typical exchange rate that's used by ATM and credit cards, it would translate a bit higher, $584-590. USA agents don't adjust their rates as often as banks do, so they build in a bit more cushion for their own protection. I can't recommend buying the German Pass directly on the DB site due to previous issues with entering info for more than one traveler and with passes getting delayed in non-traceable international mail. The one-country Germany pass is sold at train stations within the country. No, it doesn't fully cover the ICE trains to/from Copenhagen; the list of bonus coverage is limited to the specific examples at http://www.bahn.com/i/view/overseas/en/prices/passes/germanrailpass.shtml or on my earlier link.

Thanks for the info Laura,

I think it may be worth it to do the Denmark-Germany pass you mentioned before if we plan to use the train to cover a couple cities in Germany and Denmark. I need to do some more research between now and then to try and come up with a concrete plan of which cities we definitely want to hit. We may opt to just take a cheap flight from Copenhagen to Berlin the next day. EasyJet has a 9am flight for $77 the next morning and we'd be in Berlin by 10am. I think that strategy would give us a few hours to explore Copenhagen the day we get in, then get a decent night's rest before we hit the ground running in Germany. I'm hoping from there we can just come up with a plan to utilize the advanced saver fares on the trains to manage our way to the other big cities. There's also a flight from Munich back to Copenhagen the day before we head back home for $100 so that would maximize our time in Germany.

9agree with Laura that the train vs. car decision should be less about economics and more about style of travel. Both have their pros and cons. If you are sticking primarily to cities I would strongly encourage you to take the train. If, on the other hand, you prefer to explore rural locations and countryside then a car may make more sense.

You will find people on this forum who are strongly pro train and others who are pro rental car. Personally, I don't think there is one best way. I think your mode of transportation needs to fit your itinerary and your style of travel. It may be that the best way for you and your trip is actually a little bit of both.

Although the number of days of the pass is a strong factor, you should also check what sort of pass discounts might be useful to you. I don't think you'll do the Rhine KD boats on this trip, but perhaps the Romantic Road? I know, it's a problem to make all your decisions in advance. But May isn't entirely "low season", you might be glad you did some advance reservations and decisions. the days of going to the TI for a room tonight are almost past.

I have used railpasses in the distant pass, but they're not always such a good deal today. You'll only know the deal if you plan a fixed itinerary and get (advance purchase) prices for each leg.

It's clear from your UK report that you have already evaluated how you will "feel" in a car at 7PM on a day you just flew across the Atlantic. So I won't harangue you about that. Make sure your car comes with an Umwelt-plakette (sticker), to feel perfectly confident in all towns and cities. Also, there's a huge difference between driving a car in Munich and driving a car in Salzburg; Think about Miami and Lake Mary!

That is a lot of driving (like doing a 2 week road trip from Detroit to New Orleans and back). I'm usually 50:50 on train vs rental car but in this case I'd probably go with a train and plan ahead and use regional tickets as much as possible. The reason is there are only a few scenarios where the rail pass comes out the cheapest and these usually involve taking a long distance train almost everyday. In Berlin you can use the Brandenburg-Berlin-Ticket for only €29/day which in addition to the trains it included use of the local transport network in Berlin (U-Bahn, S-Bahn, buses) which a rail pass does not cover. Similarly in Munich, you can use a Bayern Ticket for only €28/day which includes local Munich transport and even private train lines that a Railpass doesn't include. On the days you are traveling from Berlin to Munich you'll have your choice of booking an ICE ticket ahead with a save fare as low as €29/person. Alternatively if you have the time you can use a Quer-Durchs-Land-Ticket at €52 for two people for unlimited travel on regional trains but that would increase your travel time from Berlin from 6 hours to 9.5.

The long distance sections are really the only ones that need advanced planning and €523 is a lot to pay to be flexible for the 3-4 long distance legs you might do (not including you will still need to pay for local transport). I'd say just lock those section into your plan and use your flexibility when you are parked in Berlin and Munich. You will save a lot of money with just a little planning.

DJ

When checking out flights, be sure to also compare the ground transportation options and baggage fees. For example, I booked a flight to Copenhagen on SAS instead of Norwegian last summer because it was cheaper after you add in the fee to check a bag. In Berlin there is more than one airport, so that could also be a factor.

Put me in the same camp as DJ for the Great Train vs. Car Debate. I could go either way, but when you mention driving into Munich, that's when I start to weigh in on trains being the better option. Driving in most German cities is relatively easy (for Europe), but Munich is the big exception. It's confusing to navigate even with a GPS, and the parking is extremely scant within the inner ring (ie, the area where most tourists concentrate). I agree with the others. Forget any kind of 3rd party rail pass, buy your train tickets directly from DB in advanced to take advantage of the saver fares on long distance trains, and use regional passes for shorter trips.

Thanks everyone for the input and suggestions,

After a lot of reading today, I think we are definitely going to try to get around on the trains. I think the budget airlines are cheap enough to just fly from Copenhagen to Berlin and from Munich back to Copenhagen so that saves us a ton of time. I'm hoping to spend 3-4 nights in Berlin, a night or two in Nuremburg (maybe), a night in both Vienna and Salzburg, and then round out the trip in Munich. I think it will be a good pace to see enough and take in the culture of each city but also not be absolutely exhausted. We covered 800 miles in 5 days in Scotland last summer. I don't regret a thing because we saw so much of the country and who knows when we will be back, but we were drained and had to take a day to recover before we had 6 more days in Ireland. Hopefully our Germany trip will have a little more "vacation" pace lol

There's a night train from Malmö to Berlin that takes a ferry. Malmö is a very short train ride from CPH airport. I can't tell if the train runs in May.

http://www.snalltaget.se/ContentPage/Index?page=2814

"I'm hoping to spend 3-4 nights in Berlin, a night or two in Nuremburg (maybe), a night in both Vienna and Salzburg, and then round out the trip in Munich. I think it will be a good pace to see enough and take in the culture of each city but also not be absolutely exhausted."

Have to disagree. To "take in the culture of each city" you definitely need to allocate more nights in between Berlin and Munich; four nights total for Nuremberg, Vienna and Salzburg? That will suffice only if your goal is to sleep in these places. Train time alone is substantial and of course doesn't include time moving between hotels and stations.

Berlin - Nuremberg = 5 hours
Nuremberg - Vienna = 5 hours
Vienna - Salzburg = 2.5 hours

I'd suggest 6-7 nights. 3-4 nights in Vienna, 2 in Nuremberg, at least 1 in Salzburg.

If you don't have that time I'd suggest dropping Vienna. Nuremberg is on the way to Munich, and Salzburg is only 2 hours from Munich.

Not sure about Nuremberg? It's a great place but there are several other great choices nearby that are also on the way to Munich - Bamberg, for example. Bamberg's old town is a UNESCO World Heritage site. Or don't choose... it would be much simpler to visit both Nuremberg and Bamberg than to do Vienna.

Assuming you fly CPH - Berlin and Munich - CPH (smart, IMO) here's what you're looking at for train trips without Vienna. Each price is for two adults.

Munich - Nuremberg: €48 (DB advance-purchase saver fare; could be more if you don't snag the best fares when they first go on sale.)
Nuremberg - Bamberg and back (or vice-versa) on a day trip: €18 (VGN Tagesticket Plus day pass, buy at station)
Nuremberg - Munich: €28 (Bayern Ticket day pass, buy at station)
Munich - Salzburg: €28 (Bayern Ticket)
Salzburg - Munich: €28 (Bayern Ticket)

Day trips to other destinations in Bavaria from Munich or Nuremberg will cost €28 (Bayern ticket) or less.

If you include Vienna, look into tickets with Westbahn - https://westbahn.at/en

Bamberg is right on the main rail line so a 6 hour stopover on the Berlin / Nürnburg ticket saves backtracking and is free, use lockers at station 3.5 euro (certain exact coins req).