Situation on the Ground: Heidelberg

so I went under and my friend and I got chewed out - they acted like
they [sic] didn't pay!

Precise following of the rules is the expectation in Germany, especially among older people and even more so among toilet attendants. Things that seem like common-sense workarounds for Americans are not appreciated. Expect to get chewed out if you don't precisely follow the rules (like inserting the correct coin in the toilet machine so that you can enter the toilet in the prescribed way).

If you haven't heard... don't cross streets against the light, even if no traffic is coming. Little old ladies will let you have it for being a bad example to the nation's children.

Thank you for the laundromat tip, as well as the warning about the toilet police. We'll be visiting in late November thru December 3 and am a bit worried about crowds (I suffer from claustrophobia); very much appreciate your on-the-ground updates.

Getting chewed out because they thought you did not pay is normal. Of course, they would react that way since they won't believe you. I have seen that several times where they did not believe a person. I have also seen where the metal stall was not working either.

I don't think their rules are "silly" I just think the toilet attendants act like police. ;)

While I personally hate having to pay for using a toilet, please do give these attendants a break. Most of them work in a precarious situation of false self-employment, something that shouldn't even exist in Germany. Many of them are immigrant workers and may have little or no education, so rather than expect them to speak English, we should be amazed at their knowledge of German.

And if you go under that metal stall, what exactly do you expect them to think other than that you are sneaking through without paying?

But small shops? No (even though I think they are supposed to be- its
more like leave it up to the customer)

There is no contact tracing required in small or large shops. It's only in restaurants or other places where you want to sit down for a coffee and take off your mask.

Love this discussion. Truly a culture clash issue. Americans - especially Californians - inherently dislike and resist clear, overtly-stated rules. Germans find them very useful for keeping things clean, safe and orderly.

• In Germany, the word "limit" in "speed limit" really matters. For Americans it's an oxymoron that requires interpretation and negotiation.

• Germans cross at crosswalks, and the red/green lights for pedestrians are there for a reason. Adults must set an example that helps kids stay safe. In California, we teach kids otherwise; jay-walking laws are on the books but have generally gone unheeded and unenforced for decades. Some communities are now decriminalizing jay-walking, empowering pedestrians to decide whether crosswalks and red lights matter at all; pedestrian laws are said to be "discriminatory" toward minorities. But IMHO Americans/Californians tend to have a collective case of ODD (oppositional defiant disorder.)

• Germans tend to have a largely shared Richtig / Falsch (right/wrong) orientation to many situations, especially bathrooms. Signs like this one are commonplace and very clear. This one adds some humor to what the richtig procedure is but the message is still clear.

• There's a right way and a wrong way to use many footpaths and sidewalks as well; if you just do as you might do at home and fail to heed the signage, you will get "honked" at by a bicyclist's handlebar bell, or you may get yourself (or some cyclist) seriously injured.

Is it a bit of cultural hegemony to disregard these "petty" rules when we're in Germany? Maybe. If you share Rick's general philosophy of travel, you might want to be open to the pluses of such cultural norms. They seem to have certain desirable results in the larger society which might be part of why we enjoy visiting. You might have to pay for a restroom visit, or get scolded for messing up, but at least it's a facility that's in far better shape than the filling station or fast-food restroom you'd have to use back home. Per Rick...

If something's not to your liking, change your liking... Globetrotting
destroys ethnocentricity. It helps you understand and appreciate
different cultures. Travel changes people. It broadens perspectives
and teaches new ways to measure quality of life.

https://www.ricksteves.com/press-room/ricks-travel-philosophy

I really like the Alliierten Museum in Berlin. So much so that I dropped a 50 euro note into the donation box for the free museum on one visit -- the only 50 euro note in the glass donation box. At the time, the special exhibit included a newspaper machine loaded with newspapers related to the exhibit; there was a threatening note on the machine that people must pay 1 euro for the newspaper -- it even mentioned that taking a paper without giving 1 euro met the criteria for a criminal act! I thought, "Hey, I gave this museum the biggest donation in its box, and I don't have a 1 euro coin. I will grab a paper with a clear conscience." So, I grabbed a paper. An employee came running up to me furious that I took a paper without putting 1 euro in the machine. I told the employee, "It's okay. I put a large donation in the donation box." The employee continued fuming. I just walked away. Happily, no police came, and no criminal charges were filed.

I am afraid we are falling into the stereotype trap a bit here. I know we Germans have this reputation of being orderly, law-abiding people who love sticking to rules. There are several sides to that issue. You might be surprised at how regulated many things in the United States appear when you travel as a non-American. You may not be aware of that because these things seem so natural to you.

It starts at the airport, at immigration. Sure, most immigration officers are quite friendly, but basically, they are God. They can let you in or turn you away as they deem right.

This goes on in the National Parks. Those rangers are very good at reminding you what the rules are. I am all for protection of nature, so that's a good thing, IMO, and I actually wish we had more of that. Here, people will let their dogs roam in the forest even in springtime when it is strictly forbidden, and no one gives a damn. So much for rule-loving, law-abiding Germans.

I won't even begin with traffic. My first visits to the United States were when the maximum speed limit was still at 55 mph. Need I say more? Germany, on the other hand, being the speeding paradise with allegedly no speed limit. Actually, we don't need to introduce a general speed limit, we use construction zones. :-)

If one uses the public WC often enough at Hauptbahnhöfen, etc , chances are that one might run into a turn stall not working as it is supposed to do. I've seen this happen to others and it has happened to me too. With others when a turn stall was somehow not working , the attendant just let the guy or woman in.

That may have happened to me too. But there was this one time I dropped in a one Euro coin and nothing happened ...no go. I called over to the attendant , told him in German, es geht nicht.

Of course he didn't believe me but then why should he? I was already thinking I would have to waste another one Euro coin, lucky I have that on me. Then I just barked at him that I had just inserted the coin (the one that didn't make the turn stall work), "Die Münze hab' ich gerade reingeworfen. " No use arguing, I put in a second Euro coin and that got me through.

So, I ended up wasting an extra Euro...no big deal.

Anna writes,

You might be surprised at how regulated many things in the United
States appear when you travel as a non-American.

No question that overregulation is a way of life here! Actually, I'm rarely ever shocked when some new edict comes out. Even if you're a non-traveling American citizen, overregulation is everywhere and in your face. As a visitor, you probably were impressed with our thick rule books on the production, sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages as well. In fact, am fairly confident that we have more laws that restrict freedom in more ways than Germany does. (I suspect this has much to do with the diverse mix of cultures in our USA family; perhaps citizens and businesses in mostly homogeneous cultures prefer to cooperate with fewer rules, while countries with high levels of cultural diversity may feel the need to rely more heavily on overtly-stated rules?)

What's really different about our cultures, I think, are our respective ATTITUDES toward such laws. Here, laws are in a perpetual state of flux. I think our governor has signed around 800 new bills into law just this year, and there are still 2 more months to go. Residents are simply not able to keep up with all of this. And many residents have lost respect for our system of law. Most new laws are not put in place for the good of everyone but instead are the result of special-interest lobbying. And with so many laws on the books, a popularity contest of sorts takes place among them. Some are enforced, others ignored entirely.

Sure, most immigration officers are quite friendly, but basically,
they are God. They can let you in or turn you away as they deem right.

I suspect you are quite right. The same immigration rules can be both enforced and ignored, even at the airport (where btw enforcement is far more likely than anywhere outside the airport. How consistent is that?) Like you, Americans notice differential enforcement and dislike it. Where we differ, I think, is that we get so much of this so often that many citizens have adopted a contrary attitude and now show a natural tendency to distrust and disobey wherever possible.

You brought up speed limits. A good example. I love Germany's even-handed approach to this. In the 70's and early 80's the national 55 mph max speed limit was ridiculous to begin with - and impossible to enforce fairly. It was supported by well-meaning conservationists and environmentalists, but it bred nothing but a country of drivers with disrespect for our system of laws. Germany OTOH handles its speed laws wisely. Posted speed limits (whatever they are) get enforced by high-tech infrastructure, such that every individual motorist knows they'll get caught and fined if they drive faster than the posted speed. It generally works to save lives and inculcate respect for the law. In this country, speeding is just what you do by default. Drive as you please in places where your odds of being pulled over are negligible. MAYBE slow down to the posted speed limit + 5 mph where cops are more likely to hang out. The lesson we learn from being allowed to drive like this is that driving laws (and other laws) are there to be broken - and that the injuries and deaths that come with speeding are of no real concern.

We'd be better off here with more compliant and cooperative attitudes. But for that to happen, our laws need to be more reasonable, more evenly enforced, more demonstrably effective - and probably fewer in number too.

Lived in Germany for four years and enjoyed it very much.

Germans love rules and have a lot of rules. They are not flexible on rules. I remember having a late dinner one night in our neighborhood and were walking back to our apartment at about 9:30pm, there was no traffic on the road we were to cross. There was a pedestrian walkway were you pushed a button for the green pedestrian light to come on. Like most Americans, with NO traffic in sight, we didn't wait to cross the street, but the German lady waiting for the green light chewed us out and wagged her finger at us for not following the rules.

Given those circumstances and standing there waiting for the green light, I would have waited until the signal had turned green.

In the 1970s (true, ages ago) I saw youth (both American and other European) plus Germans get on a bus or tram, did not stick the ticket in to have it "entwertet" for which they were yelled at. Too bad.

They are not flexible on rules.

Really? You never once in four years saw German pedestrians crossing the street while the lights were still red? Now that is very strange, since it happens all the time.

There is a sort of general consensus not to do it when children are around, so as to not encourage children who cannot overlook traffic well yet to endanger their lives by following this example. But other than that, many people have a very relaxed attitude about red lights as long as traffic is not too busy.

Note that I speak of pedestrians only. Ignoring a red light as a car driver or even as a bicyclist can get expensive and can also get you some of those nice penalty points in Flensburg.

Also, I'd like to add that we don't love rules. Rules are helpful in many cases, necessary in some, and annoying in others. In a country where your next door neighbor is a lot closer than in a less densely populated country like the United States, you might need more of them to make living together as a community easier. If they make sense, you respect them, and if they don't make sense, you respect them if the fine is high enough. :-) In either case, it doesn't mean you "love" them.

@Russ: Thanks for your thoughts. This is an interesting topic, and we could certainly go on discussing those different attitudes, but I am afraid that would mean hijacking this thread.:-)

Some are enforced, others ignored entirely.

Which may be a good thing, in some cases. Like the ones in California that made drying clothes on a clothesline or on a drying rack illegal. Forcing people to use dryers, the worst energy guzzlers, in a state where the sun would dry clothes in a matter of minutes, did seem a bit absurd. :-)

Having said that, I am far from idealizing the German attitudes (I am purposely speaking in the plural) toward rules and regulations. My point is that I want to be equally far from generalizations on either side.

One more story. Erfurt. Fall 2019. A group of inebriated young adults have left Oktoberfest. Walking down a main road, they come to a tiny street after 10 pm. No car to be seen anywhere. They stop and wait for the green light to cross.

When in Germany and faced with a rule to follow, I tell myself, “I’m going to be a good German and follow the rules.”

I find this amusing since I actually like rules and wish everyone followed them more strictly (except of course the toilet police who didn't believe us when we OVERPAID). ;0

Coming from California, where we lost around 70,000 people , I'm VERY covid paranoid so I like that you have to show proof everywhere to be vaccinated. Its aggravating if someone doesn't ask for it. I like that things are orderly here. Coming from the USA in general, where sadly we have large swaths of people who can't bother to put a mask on properly, its very refreshing seeing a general compliance here. I wish I could bring it back with me.

(except of course the toilet police who didn't believe us when we
OVERPAID). ;0

Look, would you mind stopping to call these poor underpaid attendants who are scrubbing the toilets for you "toilet police"?

Even with a smiley I find that a bit unfair, considering that it was you who acted like you were sneaking through without paying. It would have been so easy to do otherwise, even without a mutual language. You could have just called out to them, pointed to the machine, and told them with your hands and feet that you paid and that the thing wouldn't open. That would have been the way to go. And in all likelihood they would have been friendly and just gotten out their keys and opened the thing for you.

Well we did tell them (in German) --- that we overpaid.... I guess we caught them on a bad day.