refugee crisis in Germany

This question appears here many times in different shapes.Sometimes it causes political debate which in turn causes Webmaster to delete the thread. My advice is: use common sense, don't go to dark places at night. I assume that you are two women (girls). Two guys or a guy and girl will be safer (refugee theme). Despite refugee crisis in Germany I still consider that country safer for travelers than here. Read under Germany on this forum. You will find plenty of answers to your question. For example here:
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/germany/travel-concerns

The bulk of the problems that made the news were the robberies and the sexual and physical assaults in large cities on New Years Eve. Perpetrators were not exclusively recent refugees. They included immigrants, illegal immigrants and refugees as well.

http://www.dw.com/en/report-cologne-like-new-years-eve-attacks-in-12-german-states/a-18999994

Similar incidents occurred this week in Cologne during Fastnacht (Carnival) in much smaller numbers, but the identities an of the perpetrators have not been made public and are not necessarily tied to refugees.

There have been a number of anti-immigrant, angry-citizen-mob protests that were broken up by police and some anti-immigrant violence as well.

Obviously it's not a good idea to get caught up in any of these things. It might be wise to avoid large crowds (at least on big holidays where drinking might be expected, (poorly-lit areas at night, and maybe certain cities, but overall, I think that the risk to individual travelers is exceedingly low and that you are unlikely to turn up victims on this travel forum.

The only reports I've heard of that affect travelers are the reports of security checks and cancelled/delayed trains from Salzburg to Munich (where borders are being closely monitored.)

Use the common sense you would use if visiting NYC or Chicago or any large city anywhere. You don't specify if you are young/older females, males, or couple. Generally at risk are younger unaccompanied females, especially if inebriated. Avoid getting drunk and avoid being in secluded areas of large cities. Carry a whistle or other personal alarm device which will call attention in the unlikely event you find yourself in an uncomfortable situation.

Avoiding being alone in the company of young males who don't look European decreases the chances of trouble too.

There is a lot of hystery. Some extremist activists and politicians exploit the situation and exaggerate. Minor incidents, i.e. fights among refugees, make it to national TV which otherwise would remain in local papers. Factually the crime rate among refugees and illegal immigrants isn't greater than the average among residents (which is lower and less violent than in US), except for specific offenses, i.e. shop lifting, ride public transport without ticket and, obviously, neglect of immigration law. There is more violence from or in between between extremist activists related to the refugee issue, than from the refugees themselves. Tourists are unlikely targets, but may face inconveniences like delayed trains or crowded stations when travelling from southern directions towards Munich.

Many Germans are unwilling to accept the police's claim the incidents during new year's eve were no organised crime. Only feew suspects were identified and arrested. As usuall with sexual harrassment, conviction rates will be low. Providing the evidence is difficult. In principle last and this week's carnival had similar opportunities, but nothing unusual happened. It is so easy to fall into conspircay theories.

Also, the level of publicity and anger over New Year's Eve means that an increase in reported sexual assaults may not be because of an actual rise in crime but because of the victims being angrier and more willing to make a formal complaint. Look at the way the reported sexual assault rate in the UK has jumped in recent years following a number of scandals over celebrity rapists and child abusers who got away with it in the past.

On all of my trips save two to Germany I have traveled alone and like wise this June, I'll be back there solo too. I'll be watching out for the migrant types too, all the more so at train stations and the immediate outside area of the Bahnhofsvorplatz, where presumably they would be lingering around as I saw asylum seekers last June. Maybe not, not the places I'm going to, but still they can be spotted out easily.

@ James...Thanks for the updated info. On the trains hardly surprising, late trains are a definite reality in Germany. If it's not happening to you personally, you've lucked out. It's happening to some one else as you listen to announcements in German pertaining to train coming in/departing late on whichever track. You also notice not all announcements are given in English after the original German one is made. I just hope that when I get back in June, I won't have to be dealing with too many late trains, (wishful thinking) within ten mins ok.

I've asked this question of several friends--one an American currently living in Berlin, another a German native living in the US with family in Munich and Stuttgart, and a third who works in federal law enforcement here in the US. All three have said it was safe or that they'd go--and so I plan to this summer, as usual. I'll make a couple of changes to my normal itinerary--spending less time in big cities and more in out-of-the-way places, and being more alert than usual to surroundings. The friend in Berlin and the German friend both agreed with several other posters that the dangers had been over-hyped, in part because of the Cologne New Years Eve assaults.

My personal feeling is that they'll likely have some sort of terrorist attack [a la Paris] in the next couple of years--that seems inevitable--but that it is just as possible/probable that we will in a large city or event here at home. I'm going to continue to seek input from friends and family there and here and plan to 'keep on traveling' until I hear otherwise.

No one disputes DB trains have been late before the migrant crisis began. I remember in 2007 waiting for the train to Saarbrücken and the announcement came on saying the train would be one hour late. It was in the end. Since I wasn't in a hurry, i didn't care and considered that incident a fluke. Last June, ie that's prior to refugee crisis, the trains were every where late. Read the electronic boards and listen to the loudspeakers.

@ James..."...I was not impressed." You know what? You're right. That old notion of the "preußisch-deutsche Pünktlichkeit " (Prussian-German punctuality) is gone as far as DB is concerned. DB has a real problem with its public image Last June I saw in Salzburg Hbf and Linz Hbf why certain trains were late in arriving, as the Austrians cleverly put it, "aus ausländischen Gründen." ( because of foreign reasons that's why this train late), ie, everyone knew that meant the Germans...don't blame us, blame the Germans. On the people you've seen a lot in Bonn: west Asians and Africans, ie, they're asylum seekers, Asylanten. They aren't tourists or students at the famous university there. I suggest seeing Beethoven's house/museum.

I have friends living there. They say it's not at all as bad as the media presents, but still everything is different and violence has risen. It's important to be safe, not wander off alone, especially the ladies, but still no need to make a bigger deal than it is, you can travel...

@ dain...True, given the propensity of the media's to exaggerate or magnify the negative effect of events, your friends' assessment and observations are accurate. But, as you assert, things have indeed changed and crime has risen. One cannot dispute that, and if it is proven these particular and specific crimes are committed by the refugees/migrants, if that is indeed the case.

@ James....Is the post office still behind Beethoven's statue? The only one time I stayed in Bonn was a couple of days at the HI hostel. Name of the your not to be recommended...lol...hotel? Still, good observations.

James E,

I haven't been following, so just curious - where are you at the moment and which prices are shocking?

@ James...When one is used to prices in BP and Hungary in general and Poland too, the prices in Germany will take you aback But relative to the country it also depends where specifically as to the region or city in Germany. You can bet generally prices will be higher in Stuttgart and München than would be found in Cuxhaven or Bremen. Plus, you're very close to Düsseldorf, one of the most expensive cities aside from the richest in Germany. The statue more or less in front of the post office is that of Beethoven. It was like that 45 years ago in 1971, am glad to know the post office hasn't been replaced by a MacDonalds or a Nordsee eatery. In Lüneburg that was the case where the MacDonalds is situated in the town center, ie, at the end of Am Sande. Prior to that the site was a small office building.

@ James...on the disappointment with the trains: if you get a chance to go Düsseldorf Hbf or even Köln Hbf, go to main station restaurant where German cuisine is served, not the food court, since there at the restaurant is an electronic board ( blue), have a beer or coffee if you don't to order anything, and look at that board for 20-30mins as you relax and sip the coffee. See how many trains departing from the station are late and how big the "late" margin is, certainly not 5 mins late, be they IC or RB trains, even ICE, but 10, 20, 30, 40 mins late...bottom line, almost train after train is like that. I saw this last June as i was having dinner in the train station restaurant at Düsseldorf Hbf watching that electronic board on updated train info.

@ James ....The hotel wasn't joshing you on that Tourist Tax. That's for real. I had that asked of me in Berlin last June at my regular Pension. The proprietor asked upon seeing me again at "payment time" if I was there for vacation or professional reasons. Of course, I told her the truth, ie, pensioniert and on vacation. This additional tax was started very recently, in 2014 (?) I think. When I get back there, she lets me know of any changes affecting the guests different from that of the previous year, such as an increase in room price, another tax, etc.

Maybe the Bonn hotel was undergoing refurbishing. What you described is quite out of the norm unless the guy doesn't want to stay in business. I've been in Pensionen and small hotels in Germany not exactly at the "right" time since the place was going through construction, evidence to that effect strewn about, etc. But my room, a single , was always fine, maybe a bit messy outside due to the work being undertaken.

I've been through Hagen when the train stopped there, never got off there to see the place. From what I know of this Tourist Tax, I'm betting that you will be asked in Hagen. Good question as to what sort of proof would suffice. The Berlin Pension proprietor asked me, "Herr____, Sind Sie hier auf Urlaub oder beruflich?" (on vacation or professionally), so I just answered "auf Urlaub." That was that, and the truth.

But I noticed that the receipt last June written by her was no longer on a simple pint size receipt form as before but different, one twice as large with itemization listed for the same length of stay , ie one full week or a couple of days more, paid in cash. I really don't need the receipt after staying there, it's only souvenir realia.

@ James...I see your point on the Tourist Tax. You made the reservation through Hotels.com which stated all taxes are included in the room price. That was your expectation. Then this guys pops you the question. I make my reservation at the Berlin Pension by phone, yes, a call from SF to Berlin at the appropriate time , of course, since there is no 24 hrs. service at the Pension, (one reason is that one cannot book on-line, it does not have that sort of set-up). I call them up telling them the details, ie, dates/length of stay, single or double, en suite or not, etc. Since I was there in 2014 also, that question "vacation or professionally ?" was not asked in 2014. She told that tax was passed after my stay at the end of May 2014 . That's why the question was put to me in 2015. On something else: if I were to see Bonn again or Bad Godesberg since it has been at least 20 years, I would do it as a day trip from Düsseldorf where I stay in a small hotel near the main train station. That puts you back on a trunk line.

Fred; now that I have returned from Germany I have a few more things to relate.

I don’t want to portray any blanket statements or assumptions. This is primarily about my visit to Bonn about 10 days ago. The posts above were on my first day there. Over the next couple of days it became apparent that men between 20 and 30 made up a fairly large segment of the visible population on the streets and in the parks and in the train station. The dress (sort of inner city street chic – hoodies, backward caps, etc), the mannerisms and the attitudes displayed a fair degree “confidence”. Their number were so large (very nearly the majority of the people visible) that I admit it made me uncomfortable. But it’s the same discomfort I would have if the same situation existed in my home town inner city. Actually in that regard it does look like the inner-city of my home town. I have no idea with appearances being the same if the associated undesirable effects would be the same so I just decided to give them a wide distance.

The only incident I encountered was at the train station late one evening. I had walked my daughter to the station so she could take her train home. About a third of the people in the train station fit the description above. Trains came and went ever few minutes, but few actually got on a train in the 30 minutes we waited for my daughter’s train (it was late). When the train before hers pulled up to the platform two individuals fitting the description above, had a quick conversation pointed to two cars and then one went to the car directly in front of us while the other went in a car a couple of cars further down. Understand the train was less than ¼ full and there are no reserve seats. Now there could be a lot of innocent explanations for this, but I didn’t think it was worth guessing. Fortunately it wasn’t my daughter’s train, because I would not have let her on it.

Fred, I know you love Germany; and I am not in any way trying to judge a country by one city. But Bonn was filthy dirty. Cologne was only slightly cleaner. This is the sort of trash one would find after a concert or large event; food wrappers, bottles, cigarette butts (millions of cigarette butts). But there had been no event. It’s like people walk, open a candy bar package and toss the wrapper. Somehow I thought the Germans were more tidy than this? That sort of a lack of care I believe is reflective of a lot of other attitudes and so it doesn’t bide well with me. Again, added to the discomfort I felt.

Between the idle men and the trash; I am not real pleased that my daughter is there. My daughter is probably glad I had a different impression of Germany before when she asked to join the program.

For some balance. The Germans we came in contact with in restaurants and tourist venues and at the help desk at the train station were all top notch, polite, helpful and kind. Sort of the antithesis of what was immediately visible when walking around the town. It’s hard to reconcile the two extremes. As for a place to visit; during the day its fine. In the evening for a couple I think its “okay”, In the evening for a single woman? I would be careful.

@ James...Thanks for the observations, good to know since I'll be back in early June to Germany. I'll know what to expect in this regard. I know it is disappointing to say the least seeing the untidiness, trash in Bonn and so forth. Between Cologne and Bonn as to the dumpiness (it is, isn't it?), I would have suspected Bonn to be cleaner than vice versa. A good thing that Budapest looks better than Bonn,...lol As far as general safety and the migrant types, my strategy is to ditch 'em if I see them where possible. I don't intend to walk right through them, just as I would avoid spots in downtown LA when I'm on foot, such as 7th Street. Obviously, one way is to look far ahead to see if they're "lingering around. " In the US we used to call that loitering. Maybe that it's more shocking seeing this unsightly scene in Bonn because Bonn is a provincial town.

Before I went back to Munich in 2009, I had not been there since 1992, never even stopped or passed through its central train station during those intervening years. Seeing the area of München Hbf after 17 years was pretty much of a shocker (in 2009 I stayed at a hostel a couple of mins. from the Hbf). But that was only based on first superficial impressions.

Yes, I've been experiencing (West) Germany for the last 45 years, the (west ) Germany I saw and knew in the 1970s to 1987 is gone, when you see towns like Bonn, Marburg, Lüneburg, Bremen, Wetzlar, Munich, Regensburg, Stuttgart, etc, etc. Do I regret not seeing certain towns back then? Yes, Hamelin for one. To be sure, there are good, admirable changes, some changes I don't care for. It's an exchange, a trade-off, just as in life.

Fred, in Bpest and I am certain in a lot of other similar places; the poverty has resulted in a lack of maintenance on many of the wonderful old buildings. In travel stories they tend to call it “patina”. The difference I noted in places like Budapest and Sofia and to just a slightly lesser degree in Belgrade is that while the plaster is crumbling everyone makes an effort to keep the streets and pavements clean. This is poverty with dignity. I have to respect it. I once had a guest who said Budapest was a filthy town, but they hid the fact from the tourists by cleaning the streets and walks every morning. Huh? There was an issue at the Keleti Train station sublevel with visitors not keeping the place clean http://i.imgur.com/J9kFiRK.jpg. But that was last year. I went and checked it out a few weeks ago and it looks to be once again restored, so if anyone sees those photos on television or on the internet; know that it looks new again and I don’t think the government will let it get like that again.

@ James....There is a difference between poverty, poor conditions, vs a dump, urban blight, or what ever one calls it. The parts of BP I've seen don't in any way qualify to be a dump. So what if the plaster is peeling off the wall? Buildings in BP ...those gray looking ones...remind of those I saw in Germany in the 1970s. That is in my book no dump or urban blight.

I know that in parts of BP certain neighborhoods aren't very attractive, gritty or sordid, maybe even like the Tenderloin in SF, but you develop a feel for such neighborhoods to see if they are safe regardless of being gritty. As you say, it's up to each person's level of safety what s/he feels is within the comfort zone. Gritty or even dumpy does not necessarily mean unsafe. The only place in Germany that has ever reminded me of dumpy, seedy areas of SF or Oakland was in Frankfurt in 1977 just outside the train station area, though I had no concerns for personal safety since I never got the feeling of getting jumped in the streets.

Fred, Oakland is one of the few places where I have ever felt in fear of my life and I have been in some pretty rough places.

You really have to look to find a creepy neighborhood in Bpest. There are a few and I know where they are, but they aren't where a tourist is likely to walk into them. But they only appear creepy. the city has a remarkably low crime rate; less than Paris and I haven't found a place yet where I would be scared to walk day or early evening. No, I love the place because they haven't given into the poverty. Yes, in places the plaster crumbles, but they sweep it up every morning and make it a very tidy city. You know the avg per capita income is only about $11,000 in Hungary. Germany is 4 times that (Austria more) .

@ James...exactly, well put. "...appear to be creepy...." doesn't necessarily translate into being unsafe, esp if you have a feel for the place. It just looks unsightly and that's relative to the beholder. In 2007 I had a chance of seeing part of Berlin-Kreuzberg, "colourful" if you know Kreuzberg, my first time there, never had an interest in seeing it, lots of tagging on the walls, artistic or otherwise, defacing of public property (Wandbeschmierung), whatever/however one interprets it, block after block, reminded me of parts of SF. Obviously, I could see I was the only tourist, stuck out like one too, among the local populations. But the main thing is that I never felt unsafe, had any concerns about getting jumped in the streets, unlike here.

Likewise, I know that my chances are a lot slimmer or practically non-existent of getting jumped in the streets of a creepy neighborhood in BP than would be the case in Oakland or SF, even in broad daylight. Which district is that in BP?

The Eighth District is about the only area a tourist would find himself where they might begin, or have reason, to feel uncomfortable. Even then, just the eastern half of the District; beyond the 4/6 Tram line. This is where Keleti is located, where the grand old cemetery is located, where highest percentages of Roma and other assorted immigrants can be found, where there are still apartment blocks with communal bathrooms. The western end of the District is also known for its grand old mansions so its sort of a mixed bag. Deep in the eastern end of the eighth is my favorite Jewish community and my favorite cukrászda. It is worth the effort on a second or third trip because you get to see the other half of reality.