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Please Update My Radar

Hello, I have been intrigued by the topics on Germany's forum. A few days ago I could never imagine that I would start a thread that asked for help deciding where to go. I have a list 2 arms long of where I want to go and what I want to see. However, it seems as though Germany may be misrepresented in my mind (and the minds of other American tourists). So far, because I am relatively new to travel, am not young, and on my own, I have been choosing tours. My husband is encouraging me to set out on my own, which I would do if I can't find an itinerary that fits my needs. My preference is to see one geographical/cultural area at a time. (I would not take BOE in 14 or 21 days.) I won't make it to Germany for a few more trips, but I am a 20 year planner.

So...here is the question. I would love to hear from German natives and also non natives that feel they understand the "real" Germany. What would you like me to see as an American tourist that would add one more person to the world that better understands this beautiful country? Keep in mind that I am a solo female traveler that will know very little German language and will be on her own, and will not rent a car. About Nineteen days on the ground not including flight days.

TIA

Posted by
1117 posts

Hi vandrabrud,

Sure you are asking this question? ;-)

You have obviously seen some of the other threads with huge discussions going on, mostly between German natives who are not so fond of Neuschwanstein etc., and Americans who believe that it's a must-see on a first trip to Germany. No need to repeat that here. :-)

For starters, it would help to know what you are interested in. To begin with, you could for instance have a look at this list and tell us if there are any that jump out at you. Once we have a better idea about what you are interested in and what kinds of activities you enjoy, we can go from there.

Keep in mind that I am a solo female traveler that will know very
little German language and will be on her own, and will not rent a
car.

Don't worry about any of that. You'll be fine, no matter which region you eventually choose.

Posted by
2487 posts

The real Germany? That's a tough question. The country is so diverse. Is Lübeck more German than Regensburg? Or Wismar more than Wetzlar? Or baroque Fulda more than medieval Amberg? I love them all.
You need a guide book which gives a good overview, not limited to the so-called »must sees«. Personally I am a fan of the Rough Guides. This German-language site also gives a good overview, arranged by state (Bundesländer).
The German train system is excellent. Not many places of any importance which aren't served on at least an hourly basis. You can easily choose yourself a base in a middle-sized city for four or five days and explore the region. The train planner of the Deutsche Bahn shows you what's feasible.

Posted by
1473 posts

Thanks Anna,

Just that link alone is moving a Germany visit up on my list. I don't think any of the sites that jumped out at me are on the RS itinerary. I guess I am most interested in historical sites from pre-1600 of which there were many listed. I am interested and somewhat familiar with Scandinavian history including "Viking" exploration and the Hanseatic League. Also interested in monastic history and the spread and fall of the Roman Empire. The Ice Caves and the Messel fossil pit would be high on my list. I would also like to take a hike in the Black Forrest (my husband did this 30 years ago).

Hmm... Corvey, Bremen, Quedlinburg, Cologne, Lubeck, Stralsund, Wismar, Maulbronn. (Sorry for any misspelling)
Lots of research to keep me busy during a cold Ohio winter.

Posted by
6590 posts

Germany is a great place for transitioning to independent travel. Many Germans speak English - and usually very well. Hotels and inns are nearly always well kept. The rail system is awesome - extensive and normally efficient. Most stations deposit you in the heart of a given city or town. I strongly recommend that newly-independent types take advantage of the German Rail pass, at least for traveling longer distances. Individual ticketing can be a difficult matter in Germany because there are so many options and so many different transportation authorities (and there are lots of restrictions on the pre-purchased bargain tickets.) But the GRP allows the use of any trains, anywhere, at any hour for one set price. Reservations (at additional cost) are not required (as they are in certain countries.) There are both flexi- and consecutive-day versions of the GRP that may be useful for you. And if you wish to slip across the German border to certain foreign destinations, the GRP allows for that (Brussels, Prague, Salzburg, and Venice are among the options. See flyer map below.)

https://www.germanrailpasses.com/sites/germanrailpasses.com/files/documents/german_rail_pass_flyer_2015.compressed.pdf

The best GRP prices can be obtained in advance directly from DB - or in Germany at certain airports and train stations. I bought a GRP 2 years ago; it went on sale (20% discount) in early February for travel ending May 31. If your dates are before then, you might want to keep an eye on the DB website for a similar sale this year.

The "real" Germany? That's tough. The old real Germany was mostly torn apart in WW II. You can still see old-world Germany by spending more time in towns that were not big bombing targets. Check Anna's UNESCO WH list for such places. Franconia (northern Bavaria) has a nice collection of UNESCO sites and other charms:

http://www.frankentourismus.com/

Also consider the "Fachwerkstraße" theme road (lots of those old half-timbered buildings many towns in both the north and south. Many like Hannoversch Münden are served by train.)

https://www.deutsche-fachwerkstrasse.de/en/Homepage.html

http://www.hann.muenden-tourismus.de/fileadmin/Mediendatenbank/PDF/Fremdsprachen_Flyer/english-complete-hannmuenden.pdf

Such towns are found along the Rhine and Mosel River routes as well.

Bernkastel: http://en.bernkastel.de/fileadmin/_migrated/pics/Historischer_Marktplatz_Bernkastel-Kues_Fachwerkhaeuser-Michaelsbrunnen_02.JPG

Cochem: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Germany_(9),_Rhineland-Palatinate,_Cochem,_Markt.JPG

Braubach (Home of Marksburg Castle, btw.): https://www.romantischer-rhein.de/uploads/pics/Altstadt_02.jpg

Posted by
1117 posts

I must say that I am thrilled by your approach! Though I do agree with the others that "the real Germany" is hard to define. I assume the wording came up in contrast to what we Germans feel is a dis(ney)torted view on Germany, with sugar frosted castles and Lederhosen.

I wouldn't want to name a region of Germany as "the real Germany" because then we'd basically be falling into the same trap as the Bavaria/Neuschwanstein fans, only for another region. So I'll only very cautiously name one city that - IMO - might represent "the real Germany" better than most others: Berlin. You'll find WW II and pre-war and post-war history there, you'll find the traces of the wall and of East and West Germany, you'll find ancient history in the greatest museums, you'll find an extremely lively and exciting young Germany. So if anything, yes, I think I'd go with Berlin.

Now let's have a look at your interests and those sites you named. You will find pre-1600 sites and monastic history everywhere, so that in itself isn't anything to base a decision on. You will find a pre-1600 church worth looking at in the most remote and unimportant village. :-)

Let's try to do a bit of pre-sorting. For a first overview, I'll try to sort your favorites very roughly by region (you might argue about some of those placements - let's not be picky for now):

  • North: Hanseatic League, Bremen, Lübeck, Stralsund, Wismar
  • West: Cologne, remains of the Roman Empire
  • West/ Central: Corvey
  • East/ Central: Quedlinburg
  • Southwest: Ice Caves, Black Forest, Maulbronn, Messel, remains of the Roman Empire
  • Southeast: -

Now isn't that fascinating! You didn't name a single site in the Southeast. So wherever the "real Germany" might be, it's not Bavaria for you!

If I were you, I would make a basic decision either for the North or the South. Since you say your preference is seeing one geographical/cultural area at a time, I assume that you would not be happy trying to rush through both.

So, for the North, that might include a Hanseatic focus on a roughly circular route:

  • Bremen
  • Lübeck
  • Wismar
  • Stralsund
  • Berlin
  • Quedlinburg
  • Corvey
  • If you have spare time left: Cologne

You can easily take out some (like Bremen, which is a bit out of the way), or add others that are practically on that route, like the castle and half-timbered houses in Wernigerode, or more UNESCO world heritage churches in Hildesheim.

Instead of the Black Forest, you would have some other great natural attractions pretty much on that route or very close by:

  • Baltic Sea
  • Rügen
  • Mecklenburg Lakes region / Müritz National Park
  • Harz (great for hiking!)

The Southwest alternative would include (in no particular order for now):

  • Ice Caves
  • Black Forest
  • Maulbronn
  • Messel
  • Remains of the Roman Empire
  • You could easily add to that a trip down the Rhine to Cologne.

Now obviously, these are not cut-and-dried route suggestions, but they might help you find a starting point that is right for you.

Posted by
268 posts

I have just been thinking about whether Berlin can give you an impression of the "real" Germany. It is obviously German, and it is there that many decisisons are made that influence the whole country; it's probably a good idea to go there even though many other tourists do as well. But it's also definitely not the average German city, so I am not sure whether I agree with Anna: I would say that it is more international than most German cities, more dynamic, though also less efficient, less economically successful, less clean.
Maybe it is worth noting that Germany does not have that one dominant city, like France or Britain does. If you spend some time in different regions, you may notice these differences pretty soon.

Posted by
1117 posts

it's also definitely not the average German city

That is certainly true. I guess I didn't mean my vote for Berlin in the sense of "average" but more in the sense of "summing things up" and having a lot of visible history.

But then, is there a city that can represent a whole country? I don't think so. You might as well suggest just any random Northern German village in a rural area. It certainly is just as typically German as Berlin is, yet totally different.

Posted by
14481 posts

"...to set out on my own, which I would do...." Bravo ! Be adventurous as a solo traveler in Germany. If others can do it, certainly you too!

What you want to do is regional traveling in Germany, fine since that is your choice. I wouldn't. On my first trip as a solo college backpacker, I concentrated on the north ie, from Hamburg to Koblenz (including west Berlin, inconceivable for me then to leave out Berlin on a first time trip, no matter the logistic difficulties.) After Koblenz to Heidelberg ending and finishing up in Munich. I had seven weeks. Looking back I should have made time for Frankfurt too.

My advice to a first time visitor is to see cultural and historical places in towns and cities. Since you have 19 days, my suggestion for the first time visitor is Berlin plus the northern and eastern area from Hamburg to Leipzig, where you could choose from these cities/towns...Hamburg, Lübeck, Weimar, Leipzig, Potsdam, Jena, Halle, Dresden, Lüneburg, Meissen, Naumburg an der Saale, Celle, Lutherstadt Wittenberg,

If you are NOT so adventurous, then focus on the area between Frankfurt and Berlin, choose from Marburg, Celle, Heidelberg, Wetzlar, Mainz,

Posted by
14481 posts

Hi,

If you want see towns/cities off the radar of American and the mass of international tourists, lot of them too all over the country, but this is not the regional traveling that you prefer. Which towns...Marburg, Hameln, Soest/Westf., Celle, Lüneburg, Cuxhaven, Bremen, Schwerin, Kleve, Hechingen, Magdeburg, Neuruppin, Eutin/Holstein, Minden, Münster/Westf., Kassel-Wilhelmshöhe, Tübingen, Weimar, Halle, Xanten, etc.

Posted by
1936 posts

Asking about the real Germany is like asking about the “real” America. There are many different regions with their own history and culture.

Better to find out what you like and go from there. Culture and museums, plus a young hip vibe-Berlin/Hamburg. Traditional Germany-perhaps Munich and Bavaria. Nature-Black Forest & Rhine.

Posted by
868 posts

Basically everything not transformed into some kind of Disneyland by too many tourists is the "real" Germany.
Here is a map of Germanys highlights according to Baedeker, the country's most popuar travel guide, which is a good start:

http://i.imgur.com/9BcKenL.jpg

Some of the most worthwhile regions aren't even in Rick Steves book....

Posted by
1117 posts

I concentrated on the north ie, from Hamburg to Koblenz

Are you saying that you call Koblenz part of the north? :D

(Note that I didn't even list Corvey among the "north" sites... :-) )

Posted by
14481 posts

Koblenz is not north, obviously, but I used Koblenz instead of saying Frankfurt since I didn't go to Frankfurt on that trip From Koblenz I went to southwards to Heidelberg. Laterally, Koblenz is still north of Frankfurt. What is north? Everything north of the Main, that's what I meant.

Posted by
1117 posts

I hope you saw the smiley faces, Fred. :-)

Laterally, Koblenz is still north of Frankfurt. What is north?

"North" is a very relative term of course. We up here in Northern Germany tend to say that everything south of the Harz is Bavaria. ;-)

Joking aside, you wouldn't normally call anything south of, say, Kassel, "Northern Germany". While "Northern Germany" certainly isn't a precisely defined term, you would normally call the regions of approximately Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein "Northern Germany". The eastern states along the same latitude might be considered part of either Northern Germany or East Germany. The states of Hesse, North Rhine-Westphalia or Rhineland-Palatinate would not be considered Northern Germany by any common definition.

Posted by
1473 posts

Thanks so much for the great replies.
I have lots to read about and plan....which is almost as fun as the trip itself.
I will come back when I have more specific questions.
Still happy to read more thoughts from you.

Posted by
1221 posts

English/ no-English is somewhat defined by the old West Germany/East Germany line- if you live in the old East and are over about 35, you probably took Russian instead in school instead of English. (And still might in some schools)

Even in Dresden and the like, as long as you learn some 'manners phrases' (please, thank you, hello, good morning, etc.) and seem to be trying to be polite when you communicate, doing the point at a phrase book or cell phone language app works pretty well in almost every case.

Posted by
1477 posts

Germany was not formed into a single state until the 1870's under Bismarck and the ruling Hohenzollerns. The various kingdoms, dukedoms, etc. had the own customs and to some degree their own language. Germany is becoming more homogenize but the differences are still interesting. I would not look for a "real" Germany any more than I would look for a real United States.

I think your original idea of focusing on a few areas is a good one. I would visit an area, staying in both tourist spots as well as lesser know places. I like the Michelin Green guides for popular tourist sites and the ADAC road atlases for finding scenic places that are not found in most guides. Then do searches on line. Wikipedia is of mixed benefit but often a good place to start.

For me a good example of combining tourist destinations with lightly know towns are the nearby towns of Regensburg and Straubing. Regensburg is a well know tourist destination with a cathedral built in the 1100's, roman ruins and several wonderful squares. Straubing is lesser know but still beautiful. Its most celebrated former citizen is Agnes Bernauer of common origin that a Duke of Bavaria's son came to love in the 1400's. The duke had her tried as witch and drowned. She has had the last word. Plays have been written about her. Portraits have been painted. She has a chapel devoted to her that was visited in the 1800's by King Ludwig I. A town has to have a sense of humor to have such a hero. There is an annual celebration of Agnes and who remembers the duke.

Germany is a wonderful collection cultures and histories. Have fun.

Posted by
1117 posts

if you live in the old East and are over about 35, you probably took
Russian instead in school instead of English

That is certainly true - as a first foreign language in 5th grade. Most East German students, however, added English to that as a second foreign language, beginning in 7th grade. (Which - on a side note - is still a lot more foreign language education than most of my American friends have... many of them not having begun learning even their first foreign language before 9th grade.)

That GDR generation may not be anywhere near fluency because they - obviously - did not have the greatest English teachers to begin with (how should the teachers themselves have learned the language properly?), but you'll get along.

Posted by
14481 posts

@ Anna...True, " north" is a relative term, whether it's Kassel ( between Kassel and Göttingen one can find lots of Fachwerkhäuser too) or Cuxhaven, depends on the geographical or political context.

I go by the boundary of the Nordeutscher Bund of 1867, die traditionelle Grenze zwischen Nord-und Süddeutschland...der Main.

Posted by
14481 posts

Westphalia is not part of the north? That reminds of a "incident" I witnessed in the HI Nürnberg hostel in 1973 when this American guy was trying to talk to these three German girls, sisters to each other., in English obviously. Their English was barely at conversational level, he asked them where they came from..."a town near Münster. " The guy thought they said München, and then said, "Then you're Bavarian?"

The third sister who had remained silent all this time ( I could tell she was annoyed at this guy) all of a sudden screams at the guy, certainly a sudden outburst, " Nein! Wir sind Preußen !!" (we're Prussians) ...bravo, very revealing. I never forget that story.

Posted by
1117 posts

I go by the boundary of the Nordeutscher Bund of 1867

Well, considering Baden, Bavaria and Württemberg joined that Federation in 1870, that would make Northern Germany quite large. :-)

Westphalia is not part of the north?

Well, you can argue if the "west" is north or south, but generally, Westphalia would be considered western Germany, not northern Germany.

"Nein! Wir sind Preußen !!" (we're Prussians)

Very nice story. :-)

For those among us who are not aware of the connotations: "(Sau-)Preußen" is what non-Bavarian Germans are called by Bavarians, and it's not flattering. :-) So this girl must have been really upset to refer to herself by that term!

Posted by
1117 posts

Lubitsch, please don't be so harsh, o.k.? The OP has signaled that she needs some time to think things over and does not have any further questions at this moment. So what harm is there in some slight "derailing"? We have really all done our best to help answer her questions and find good ideas for her vacation, and I am sure will do so again when she comes back with more questions.

Posted by
14481 posts

Norddeutscher Bund used the Main as the boundary in 1867. That was no accident picking the Main as the boundary. The South German kingdoms (Bavaria, Baden, etc ) were tied by military conventions to the Nordeutscher Bund...all signed by the following year. Yes, you could dispute whether Westphalia is west or north, or even the Rhineland, which went to Prussia after 1815.
In Minden one can see the Preußen in Westfalen Museum. Yes, the girl felt insulted when the American guy thought she was Bavarian.

Posted by
32517 posts

I find it interesting that one of the earlier posts mentions lederhosen as a negative - as if it represents only Disney Germany.

I beg to differ. I often visit parts of Germany a little off the beaten path and have found that when local festivals are around the lederhosen often comes out of the cupboard. I've been at small hotels in various villages and seen plenty. We went up to breakfast at a tiny hotel one year, below the Kaiserstuhl in western B-W, and only my knowledge of German enabled conversation. All the men at breakfast, maybe 20 of them, were all in lederhosen, and my host spoke no English, or at least didn't immediately switch into English when I started speaking. There were half a dozen small tractors in the car park and along the lane. They were all headed for a small local weinfest. And a fair distance from any other English speaking tourists (maybe a few French?) and certainly a fair distance from Bayern.

That certainly wasn't the only time, either.

Back in Bayern, Franconia.... I've been on the platforms of the Nürnberg Hbf on Saturday mornings and seen lots of local young women arriving in dirndls and young men in lederhosen, not for the tourists or for a special festival, just because it is Saturday and they like to dress up on the weekend.

Posted by
135 posts

I am quoting from the Wikipedia article on Lederhosen: "Lederhosen were once widespread among men of the Alpine and surrounding regions, including Bavaria, Austria, the Allgäu, Switzerland, and the autonomous Italian region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol (formerly part of Austria-Hungary). But they were not usually worn in southwestern Germany or Switzerland." Well, concerning Switzerland the text contains a contradiction in itself.
I can only speak for southwestern Germany, i.e. the state of Baden-Württemberg. At the Cannstatter Wasen (Stuttgart Beer Festival), the second biggest in the world after the Münchner Oktoberfest, hardly anyone wore Lederhosen and Dirndl decades ago. Nowadays you see more and more people doing so, especially young ones. They all imitate the people at the Oktoberfest. This is nothing genuinely 'württembergisch' or 'stuttgarterisch'. As for the people at the Kaiserstuhl in Baden with their tractors I guess they did the same thing - or they were from Bavaria, which is very improbable considering their tractors. In my youth only boys including myself wore short Lederhosen mainly for the fact that they couldn't be torn. You wore them for years in the summer and when you grew too big for them you passed them on to your little brother. You can imagine what they looked like after a long time.

Posted by
980 posts

the "real" Germany.

  • Waiting at the Kreisverwaltungsreferat to register you car (any city).
  • Missing your yearly utility meter reading and having to pay 45€ for a new appointment
  • Do some shopping at a Hypermarkt like a Globus or V-Markt (there is a good reason why Walmart could not break into the German market)
  • Have a debate about which local bakery and butcher shop is the best (the answer is Bäckerei Schmidt and Metzgerei Ignaz Vogl)
  • Buy some books you don't need and old toys at a neighborhood fleamarket (that's how I got my 10€ kids seat for my bike plus two tricycles for 5€)

This list is a little tongue in cheek obviously, but I do encourage people to work a little of modern Germany into their itineraries when possible. Sometime people get so caught up in the history they forget German is a wonderfully modern country with a lot to teach us about alternative ways of doing things that you might not have considered in your home country.

DJ

Posted by
6 posts

As a person who is planning my own family trip and trying to balance going to "Disneyland" sites and learning and appreciating the real Germany, I truly appreciate all of these comments. Thank you all. I have already reexamined our itinerary!

Posted by
14481 posts

Hi,

I would also suggest using Rough Guide Germany, as already recommended above, a book I like and find very useful and informative.

Posted by
32517 posts

Bäckerei Schmidt

If that is the Bäckerei Schmidt south of Nürnberg, especially Schwabach in Franconia, I completely agree...

Posted by
980 posts

Nigel’s Franconia comment reminded me I forgot to add:

  • Have a debate about which brewery is best (the correct answer is Lindenbräu in Gräfenberg, it’s just a fact)

Walking the Fünf-Seidla-Steig would be a good way to experience the “real Germany” for a day.

DJ