Planning ~8 day/7 night trip in August - Mid and Southern Germany for first timers

Sounds like a great trip. I have included a number of useful websites.

I love staying in Bacharach, and St Goar is short train ride or bicycle ride north.

IMO If you want to see the Marksburg you will probably need to take a train to get there from St Goar or Bacharach since the Rhine steamer schedules don't give you much time to enjoy it and get back.

an example not a recommendation, since there are several companies. https://www.kdrhine.com

If you want to enjoy Burg Eltz, plan to stay another night on the Rhine so it is a whole day trip. 3 nights on the Rhine.
https://www.burg-eltz.de/en/
https://www.burg-eltz.de/en/planning-your-trip-to-eltz-castle/arriving-by-arriving-by/arriving-by-train.html

It takes 4 -5 hours by train from St Goar to Rothenburg ob der Tauber via several ways to Wurzburg and then on to R o d T.
https://www.bahn.de/en/view/index.shtml

an example: https://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en ld=36137&protocol=https:&seqnr=7&ident=cv.016917137.1558733454&rt=1&rememberSortType=minDeparture&REQ0HafasScrollDir=2

Rothenburg to Munich:
Back to Wurzburg or Nuremberg and then down to Munich by train.
an example: https://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?ld=36137&protocol=https:&seqnr=1&ident=f1.025365137.1558733766&rt=1&OK#focus

A car from St. Goar/Mainz/Frankfort through Rothenburg o d T and returned in Nuremberg or Munich might make travel arrangements/times easier.

Dachau concentration camp (1/2 day) other half see Dachau itself;

Dachau itself is, to me, just another Munich suburb. IMO you are better off touring Munich for the rest of the day.

Stay in Munich o/n.

Neuschwanstein and Hohenschwangau have admissions/admission times. There are organized tours to these castles, of course, or you can take trains to Fussen and a bus, but again coordinating with admission times can be challenging.

https://www.schloesser.bayern.de/englisch/aboutus/index.htm

I think if you like history (medieval and WW II) missing Nuremberg is a real shame, and you could do it on the way to Munich (o/n in N and the train N to M takes less than 90minutes).

https://museums.nuernberg.de/nuremberg-municipal-museums/

Black Forest:
The Black Forest is great but off your tracks, so I agree it will be a diversion from the focus of this trip and is a good target for visit 2.

After that, it's on to Switzerland , probably Bern or Zurich....

The flights from Munich to Zurich are less than an hour, which is really worth the time savings; And you land in the heart of Switzerland.

Have fun!

Welcome to the forum.

train to Bacharach, with cruise up to St. Goar. Stay o/n in St. Goar.

You are skipping half the scenic part. Why not cruise the whole scenic part?

See Marksburg castle, as well as Rhinefels castle, return to St. Goar, stay o/n...
see Burg Elzt in Moselkern or find way to Rothenburg for next leg?"

You probably should re-organize all these items a little. Day numbers will help - I'll use #1 for your arrival day in Germany.

1.) Train to St. Goar. Check in. Visit Rheinfels Castle in town.

2.) Train to Bacharach (10 min.) for a look around; train to Bingen; board 11:30 KD cruise boat north to St. Goarshausen (opposite St. Goar) and get off (13:05.) Board train to Braubach (13:32 - 13:53) and have a meal and a stroll through the old town. Walk up to Marksburg, take 16:00 tour in English. Proceed back to St. Goar (train + ferry crossing from St. Goarshausen.)

3.) Marksburg better exemplifies medieval times than Eltz, and Eltz is quite time consuming. I advocate another day/night in the area! but not necessarily another castle. You have good choices. You could visit both Boppard and Remagen, both north of St. Goar on the same train line. Boppard has a cool chairlift to a very scenic lookout after a walk to Gedeon's Corner. Remagen is a nice town with a good WW II museum. Instead of Remagen you might just take the train to Oberwesel (5 min. south of St. Goar) and take the town wall walk.

I caution you not to pre-purchase those cruise day passes that are available at the "KDRhine" site nickB linked to. They are overpriced - you will pay about half that much for a Bingen - St. Goar cruise at the 20% discount price (show your train ticket at the KD dock for that discount.)

There are cheap day passes for families like yours available at the St. Goar station - they will handle your Day 2 and 3 train outings just fine.

Legs 2 & 3... these are dominated by overly touristy, overrun places that turn Germany into a bit of a cliche and in some cases exist almost exclusively for the entrapment of international tourists. There are many other places in this part of Germany where you will find some actual Germans, places that should make their eyes "light up" once they see and experience them.

Nuremberg (suggested above) is a good choice. So is Regensburg (a UNESCO World Heritage old town.) Other places to investigate:
Bamberg (a UNESCO World Heritage city) and its outstanding pubs
Iphofen (scroll through photos)
Bad Windsheim and the Freilandmuseum
Nymphenburg Palace (Munich)
Herrenchiemsee (just one hour from Munich.)

NickB and Russ, thank you for the quick replies.

I am considering your suggestions and it sounds like more time should be given to the Rhine , at least another day/night, so we might end up staying in Bacharach or St. Goar, since they are so close to each other, and use them as a base . I read more on Bacharach, and it sounds like a very nice place - the wall walk, etc.

So from there I think we will follow Russ's advice, Stay in St. Goar/Bacharach the first night (we don't know which yet, but they are close so we'll decide later) , next day go to Bingen from Bacharach/St. Goar, and take the cruise downstream to St. Goarshausen, and take the train up to Braubach, to see the Marksburg castle and spend the rest of the day there, then go back to
to St.Goar/Bacharach stay another night.

The next day maybe go to Boppard - that scenic view of the Rhine at the top looks awesome, then maybe go to Oberwesel on way back, and back to base at St. Goar/Bacharach for o/n.

Then leave the next day to ???

Nuremburg is something I hadn't considered, but when I look and see it combines both medieval and WW2 history, it sounds much more appealing than Rothenburg. So we might go here after the Rhine for 2 days/nights, then on to Munich. Not sure yet though, son really seems to like Rothenburg, so we'll see.

But we will definitely stay in Munich for at least 2/3 days/nights , so Dachau Concentration camp is still on, not Dachau itself, but maybe add Nymphenburg and Regensburg.

This is still a work in progress, but thanks again for clarifying many things.

Regensburg is out of the way if you are coming back from Fussen or Oberammergau. Augsburg is worth half a day. See the Rathhaus and the Fuggeri (300 year old housing for the poor).

Don't miss Rothenburg on the Tauber, is was not damaged much in WWII and there aren't a lot of virtually intact medieval towns in Germany. Dinkelsbuhl is another town similar to Rothenburg on the Romantic Road. It is like Rothenburg without many tourists.

Nuremburg is worth a visit, but that city was rebuilt and most of the buildings are not the original.

Bern and Zurich are OK, but Lucerne is more interesting. Also, consider Interlakken.

"Stay in St. Goar/Bacharach the first night (we don't know which yet, but they are close so we'll decide later)"

A few thoughts for later. Staying in St. Goar...

• allows you to visit Rheinfels on Day 1 with no further train rides.
• provides the option of river-view hotel rooms with a castle-view on the opposite river bank (Bacharach is set quite far back.)
• tends to be a quieter experience because of the railway location (which in Bacharach is just too close in some cases.)
• puts you within steps of the ferry crossing and the railway across the river. Bacharach doesn't have a ferry.

Bacharach's buildings have more charm altogether than St. Goar's, and Bacharach is definitely more popular among Rick Steves' followers - but for most, that is not an experience-based comparison. Most stay in only one Rhine town, of course, and that town is Bacharach for the most part - because Rick recommends it most strongly. Once upon a time, when people carried guidebooks, the breafkast and cafe tables in Bacharach always seemed to have one or two copies of RS's G-A-S on top. You will probably be rubbing elbows with his readers there this summer too.

The town I have used most often myself is Boppard - just a great place with a lively market square and riverfront, a little more to do, more dining and lodging options than the other small towns, and a stronger presence of Germans and European travelers. But I think for your stated goals, St. Goar will work a little better.

"Don't miss Rothenburg on the Tauber, is was not damaged much in WWII...Nuremburg is worth a visit, but that city was rebuilt and most of the buildings are not the original. "

It's not common knowledge, but actually, I believe about 40% of Rothenburg was destroyed. 1945 photo. I don't know exactly what its strategic value was - only that it was one of the German cities that Hitler promoted strongly as being quintessentially German at heart - maybe it was a symbolic bombing??

There are many towns like Rothenburg in Germany, and most of them did NOT get bombed in the war. Rothenburg did. 40% of the town was damaged.
Why Rick likes it so much is a mystery. For some unknown reason, he thinks it is unique when it isn't. Have a look at the many towns on the Half-Timbered Route that runs through Germany. https://www.deutsche-fachwerkstrasse.de/en/Homepage.html

If you are taking the train from Paris, you may want the Paris to Frankfurt train which is takes under 4 hours. From here you can train to Bingen, and get on the ship that goes to St. Goar. If you want to go to the Marksburg there is a ferry that crosses the Rhein from St. Goar to St. Goarhausen. Bacharach is a bit more charming than St. Goar, but for me, the most charming town is at the other end, Eltville. Easily accessible from Frankfurt, it is on the right side of the Rhein. Train from here to Braubach and the Marksburg every hour.

I've learned more from this forum in a little over 6 hours then I did from reading 3 different guidebooks the last three days!
Thanks to everyone.

Thanks again Russ, it looks like our original plan for the Rhine for staying in St. Goar appears to be the right choice - convenient for getting to other locations on the Rhine, interesting lodging choices with river views, and the Rhinefels castle in town is a very good combination. Of course we didn't know that when we first chose it, we just chose it because it was very central on a map for our plans.
Since it seems that now we're going to be on the Rhine 3 nights, we might go 2 at St. Goar and one in Bacharach, just to compare for future reference.

So a few more general questions - with the itinerary I listed, is it possible to do most/all by train , including if we went to Nuremburg , Rothenburg and Augsburg on the way to Munich?
Since we are going through 4 countries we will probably get a railpass, the question is which one? We were thinking of getting a 7 days of travel in one month pass , because we will be making approximately 7 days of long distance travel . I know the passes also include many side deals, where they give discounts - on the K-D cruise line for one. but will it also cover the smaller train lines, say from Bingen to St. Goar, so would this be adequate? Or is a continuous pass better, because of all the little side trips?

Also one other thing that's not really travel related, but I wanted to buy a cuckoo clock to replace the one my mother brought from Germany about 65 years ago. She told me few Germans actually have one, that it's mainly a tourist souvenir , but still, I thought they were cool.
Since it looks like I won't be going to the Black Forest this time around, is there anywhere else I could get one that I know is authentic, Munich maybe?

"I wanted to buy a cuckoo clock to replace the one my mother brought from Germany about 65 years ago."

The St. Goar cuckoo clock shop is near the town's tourist office on the main street in town (which is for pedestrians only.) If you were walking down that street (Heerstraße) behind the people in this photo, the shop is about 1 block further. There's a huge cuckoo clock hanging outside the shop. That's Rheinfels Castle in the background.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/cuckoo-clock-center-st-goar

"We were thinking of getting a 7 days of travel in one month pass , because we will be making approximately 7 days of long distance travel . I know the passes also include many side deals, where they give discounts - on the K-D cruise line for one. but will it also cover the smaller train lines, say from Bingen to St. Goar, so would this be adequate?"

The railpass decision is actually a very complex one that depends strongly on your itinerary and your specific needs; without dozens of additional details from you, you should expect advice that is more philosophical than practical, more unhelpful than helpful. That said here are some general comments that probably hold up ...

• A rail pass will cover all trains in Germany except the specialty tourist trains (equivalent of the Napa Valley wine train thing.)
• The 20% KD cruise discount you get with a rail pass is also available if you buy regular tickets - no advantage for the rail pass!
• A rail pass is often more convenient to purchase and to use but often ends up to be much more expensive than individual ticketing options. Advance-sale saver fare prices can be quite good. So can day passes (especially true for small groups within Germany.)
• The German Rail pass is unique since it actually provides transport into certain destinations in other countries. See info and map on this flyer.
• If you want the convenience of a rail pass, it is sometimes a good strategy, if you can be flexible, to plan or re-work your itinerary around the railpass(es) that best fit your budget and your MAIN travel objectives. (The German Rail pass is a good candidate for this. For example - you have the general objective to see something in Italy and Austria... so instead of Palermo and Vienna, you choose Venice, Verona, Innsbruck and Salzburg since the GRP gets you there easily.)
• It is possible to get a rail pass for part of your itinerary and use normal point-to-point ticketing options in other parts where the rail pass can be problematic (for example - a country like France that offers rail pass access but requires reservations - and then CAPS the number of rail pass reservations it issues!)
• The Man in Seat 61 provides your best one-stop, mostly-unbiased Train Travel University education for Europe. He doesn't cover everything, but almost. He does not sell train tickets or passes - he just informs you, and does a good job

Before you jump off the dock, MarkY365 (what a long name - can we just call you Mark?) and buy a Global Rail Pass, can I suggest you share the rest of your itinerary with us? You listed 4 countries for the pass - France, Germany and Italy, possibly Switzerland.

If you are doing fast (TGV) trains in France, the Eurail pass has less value. Part of the value of a pass is to just jump the next train which catches your eye. In fact, back in the day when i used them, you could. But now is now, and in France you have to make, AND pay extra for, mandatory seat reservations on all TGV and InterCities trains. These vary in price from maybe around €10 per leg up to a multiple of that if it is a popular route. It used to be that they were rationed and you might not be able to reserve if others had beaten you to it but I have heard that that may have been changed. But it will still cost, and may cost as much (on top of your pass) as nearly what you can get cheap tickets for which include the reservation. Get your tickets well ahead and you can save a bundle. Restrictions apply, of course.

Italy really is not a good use for a pass. Even on the fastest trains (Freccia) advance tickets can be as low as €19.90 on some routes, €10 more on others. How much is the pass - per day? Freccia trains will cost €10 per person with a pass per leg, Inter City trains are €3 or more per leg. Those fees are included in the real tickets. The slowest trains - Regionale and Regionale Veloce - don't require anything from pass holders because all seats are unreserved, but you can usually buy walk up Regionale tickets for just a handful of euros, probably less than you pass day cost. There are two competing long distance fast train companies in Italy. The newer one, Italo, doesn't accept rail passes. Italo is often even cheaper on the fast trains than Trenitalia, but doesn't go so many places. It would be helpful to know where you do plan to go.

Germany has loads of ways to save money, especially if you are in a group like yours - often 5 can travel nearly as cheaply as one, and you travel with a few restrictions. For example, all day travel in Bavaria for 4 people costs only €46 for all 4 folks. €25 for the first person and €7 for each additional. For your group of 4 that is €11.50 each - including all the non top tier trains in all of Bavaria, including local buses and trams, all day long, as many trips as you want, even over the border to Salzburg. There are deals like that in every state (Land) and special deals on smaller areas, and between different states. Have a look at https://www.bahn.com/en/view/offers/regional/regional-day-tickets.shtml

Switzerland is a special case. Transportation there is so expensive, and you will be using so much of it - likely, especially after we help with where you are going - that some sort of pass often is a great idea. Not always the Eurail Global pass though because it doesn't go a lot of places that most people want to go, or only with a small discount. There are passes issued by Swiss railways that are good for regions of Switzerland or the who country which can take you exactly where you want to go and truly save you money.

I don't want to discourage you if you really want to go the Eurailpass Global way, just I hope you do it with your eyes open.

Happy travels

I'd consider getting a car as you leave the Rhine and driving via Rothenburg and Fuessen and then dropping it off in Munich.

I love Bacharach as a base for exploring the Rhine. I also love the Mosel River valley and use Cochem as my base. You can use it to access Burg Eltz, which people seem to enjoy for the castle visit. I love renting bikes from the KD location on the Mosel and riding to Beilstein, which is very quaint and picturesque. You can ride on much further on one side of the river and back on the other or you can cross on the little ferry.

I would not skip Rothenburg. No matter how many times I have visited I always enjoy this village. And I do think that Nuremburg is a great choice.

Neuschwanstein Castle is a lot more impressive from the outside than inside. There are many better ones to visit. My favorite is acturally Chateau Chillon in Switzerland on the lake.

Oh, and please don't skip Switzerland, especially the Berner Oberland south of Interlaken. Your young people will certainly enjoy hiking there and the Alps are so beautiful. Stay in Gimmelwald or Murren.

Luzern is also a nice city to visit. Good for at least one night on your way south.

Ok, this is all great info. Many thanks.
Another day, more decisions to ponder.

To Nigel, and every one else, if using Mark is easier for you , it's fine with me .

So our whole itinerary (as of today) :

1) Fly to Paris from SFO (San Francisco) on either July 29 or 30 - it looks like it's generally cheaper to fly mid week than weekends, and some Kayak searches seemed to confirm this.
Stay in Paris 7 days (not including travel day)/ 7 nights.
Must see - Eiffel Tower , Champs Elysees, maybe Louvre
Side trips -
1. Tours and Loire Valley , visit a chateau or two
2. Versailles, to see palace

2) Leave Paris for 2nd leg - primarily Rhine river roughly between Koblenz and Bingen
-St. Goar / Bacharach 2/3 nights
- do castle cruise - see Rhinefels, Marksburg , maybe Burg Eltz castles
-leave St. Goar for Rothenburg (must see for son) -

3) Rothenburg , stay o/n
- See town, go on night tour, stay o/n
- leave for Nuremburg

4) Nuremburg - arrive from Rothenburg , stay rest of day, see downtown area stay o/n
- Visit Document museum for Nazi history , tour other Nazi sites
- leave Nurnburg for Munich

5) Munich - have 3 days allotted for Munich -
- see Dachau camp, also Munich
- side trip(s) to either Regensburg or Augsburg or Herrenchiemsee

6) Go to Switzerland 3 days/ 3 nights
- Stay in Bern or Luzern or (Geneva, Zurich, Interlaken)?
- See Reichenbach Falls (Sherlock Holmes fans know why) - also why we want to stay in Bern at least a night
- full itinerary still undecided, so any other suggestions welcome

7) Go to Venice 3 days/3 nights
- Grand Canal
- Piazza San Marco
-?

8) Fly back to SFO

We've seen most flights from Italy usually end up in Munich and transferring there for nonstop to SFO, and it's only an hour flight from Venice, so that's why we did it that way.
However, as far as the order goes , we also considered going from Paris to to Rhine river to Switzerland to Venice to Munich, then Rothenburg and Nurnburg and back to Munich for flight out , so it would be:
1, 2, 6, 7, 5, 3, 4 , then end in Munich 8 , for flight out. This would mean some time in the Black Forest , so I'd have to ask if it's worth a stay or not.

To prioritize, the absolute must see's to us are: Paris, Rhine river, Venice and Munich.

As far as lodging goes, we've had good luck with airbnb and vrbo, so for those places where we stay at least 3 days, we'll go that way. However, we lose flexibility , so for those places where it's less than 2 days, we'll probably just go with hotels.

I visited Reichenbach Falls from Interlaken. Worth the trip