Oktoberfest / Neuschwanstein / Black Forest / Rhine - Too much?

Yeah, it's too much time in the car; you should probably drop Constance and Baden-Baden in the interest of time. I'd drop N'stein as well - that's considered heresy but it's my advice. (In part because of the extra driving but I see you want to paraglide there... I have no advice for you on that but maybe you've got it all worked out.) If you want to spend some nice time in the Alps, there's ample opportunity that day either in Füssen or elsewhere but only less time if you spend it on N'stein. The Alps are worth at least a day and night there by the way if you go.

Here's how I'd break up the nights.

9/24, 25: Munich (take train from MUC into city. Bad idea to drive after a transcontinental international red-eye flight, bad idea to drive in Munich.)
9/26: (pick up car in Munich - or avoid Munich driving/traffic and take train to Füssen.) Füssen or thereabouts
9/27, 28: (pick up the car if you took train to Füssen.) Black Forest
9/29, 30: Rhine town (see some real medieval castles here - N'stein is a late 19th-century knock-off.)

I would not travel into Frankfurt on you last night. I would in fact drop the car in the Rhine area on 9/30 and take the train into FRA on 10/1. You can get there in 25 minutes from Mainz, less than an hour from Bingen (the gateway to the Rhine Gorge, and the best town to board a cruise boat in.) Or it's only a little longer to FRA from Bacharach.

BTW you probably will get a better car quote if you avoid airport pick-up and drop off. There's normally a surcharge for those locations.

I agree that this is going to be a lot of driving and a lot of changing of locations, that is, a lot of packing and unpacking and very little time to actually get out of the car and see or do things.

If you can't fly open jaw and start your visit right in Munich, I'd definitely agree that it's safer and probably faster to take the train from Frankfurt. Pick up your car at the end of your Munich visit.

I don't really see how you are going to drive from Munich to Neuschwanstein, visit the castle, do paragliding, and drive to Lake Constance all in one day. That will take extremely good organizing and perfect reservations to make that happen, and it certainly won't allow for any delays or any lines that are longer than expected.

Hiking in Baden Baden? eh? Where?

Thanks for the advice all. We reconsidered some things and here is where we landed:

9/24 Day 1: Arrive Frankfurt, train to Munich, Oktoberfest day #1

9/25 Day 2: Oktoberfest day #2 (tour with Radius)

9/26 Day 3: Drive car and visit Neuschwanstein, paraglide at Tegelberg, drive to Rothenburg
Sleep at Klostersteuble (Rick Steves recommendation)
Yes this is doable

9/27 Day 4: Most of day in Rothenburg, drive to Mosel Valley ... Sleep at Filla Andre in Ernst (down river from Cochem 7 minutes ... place looks dope)

9/28 Day 5: Mosel Valley

9/29 Day 6: Mosel Valley

9/30 Day 7: Depart from Frankfurt

How does that feel?

The Mosel is great. But waking up there on your last day means a fairly long drive to FRA so I hope you have a late flight. Not sure what you have in mind for the Mosel, probably something specific since you axed the Rhine for 3 nights there.

Yes this is doable

You substitute the drive to Lake Constance with the even longer drive to Rothenburg and insist "this is doable"?

Well, it's your vacation.

I'm not sure what all the hate is about. We have a limited amount of time and are maximizing our day by fitting in travel when we can, while still allowing enough recommended time to see the places we want. It's definitely a manageable schedule and have received enough affirmation from trusted airline employee associates that have made similar trips in the past.

Re: the Mosel Valley. We are simply using the Cochem area as a central spot to stay. The main goal of the tail end of our trip is to slow down and relax after what I'm sure will be an exhausting and busy front-end. Our accommodations and location should allow for that. In addition, since we'll have a car, we will be able to explore, not only any area of the Mosel Valley from there, but also the Rhine.

Constructive criticism is welcome, but it just feels like a little too much judgment. Thanks.

I can assure you there's no hate behind my own comments - just genuine interest in what your plans were for the Mosel. But I think you just responded to that - you don't necessarily have anything specific, just looking for some down time and look-around time. As you say, the first part is planned pretty meticulously and tightly, so with 3 nights I thought you might be seeking suggestions for specific sights on the Mosel, that's all.

As for perspectives from the continent that you have received... rather than antipathy toward you or your plans, I think you're seeing your plans through the eyes of most Germans. Vacation time in Germany is precious, and generally speaking, it's spent very differently there, at least differently from the way we spend ours in North America. There is almost no one in Germany who would consider driving from point to point to point over 7 days as you have outlined in your first plan or in your revised plan - whether they were vacationing in Germany, in Sweden, or in Spain. For them, the time you've chosen to spend driving is grossly disproportionate to the total vacation time. That's just not so for Americans, or American airline personnel. We just like to be on the go, and that's how many of us vacation. And there's nothing "wrong" with that - it's just an orientation that seems odd and inadequate to Europeans, one of those cultural perspectives that's just always going to be different from ours, and one that I have personally heard again and again during my travels and my time of residence in Germany.

Indeed - it is YOUR trip and you should do what pleases YOU. You asked whether you were "rushing." But on a forum with international participation, you should expect to get some critiques that come from a completely different perspective; of course, these are ideas you can cozy up to, or discard as you please.

So what do you think about that last night? I hate being too dependent on a car for transportation when I absolutely positively have to be at a distant airport on a deadline.

I don't see any hate here, just objective recommendations from people with experience at these places.

Why did you come onto this website, for advice or for conformation and praise for your brilliantly thought out itinerary?

Yes it is doable in the best case scenario, but hardly advisable.

You seem fixated on flying into Frankfurt and training immediately to Munich. Why? There are lots of flights from DFW to MUC and flying open-jaw (DFW to MUC, FRA to DFW) is probably not much more than RT DFW to FRA. Full fare FRA to Munich will cost you over $100/person and take almost 4 hours. There are less expensive SparPreis tickets for that route, but they are non-refundable, valid only on the booked train - not advisable for a flight arrival that could be delayed.

You MUST reserve a tour for Neuschwanstein. You're going to be there at Oktoberfest. I went through Hohenschwangau during Oktoberfest a few years ago, and the line at the ticket kiosk was enormous - more people standing outside the kiosk than inside. I think by noon, all tours for the day had been booked. You must book a tour as close as possible to the start of castle tours at 9 AM. Since the website says you MUST pick up you ticket one hour before your tour start time (or lose it), you should be at the kiosk when it opens at 8 AM, which means leaving Munich before 6 AM and preying there are no traffic delays.

The walk up to Neuschwanstein will take about ½ hr if you are fit, but that time is included in the one hour advance for ticket pickup. The tour takes about 40 minutes and the walk down is about 20 minutes, so you should be able to return to Hohenschwangau and your car about an hour after your entrance time.

I don't know how long it takes to do the paragliding. Do you need reservations? But after the paragliding, you still have the 2½+ drive to Rothenburg.

So, with Neuschwanstein reservations, that day is doable, not without.

You are planning a drive of about 100 miles to the airport for a flight home. What could go wrong with that, and what would be the consequences if you were delayed. I'd drive from Cochem to Mainz the evening before and return the car, then stay at one of the three hotels (Schottenhof, Koenigshof, or Hammer) right across the Bahnhofsplatz from the Mainz Hbf and a short S-Bahn ride to the airport in the morning. Or, return the car in Cochem and take the train from there to the airport in the morning.

BTW, it hardly matters, but Ernst is UP, as the river flows, from Cochem.

Russ, thanks for the reply, and to all, thanks for setting my tone straight.

For Mosel, we would welcome any suggestions. We chose Mosel over the Rhine because the pace seems slower and we hope will offer more relaxation. We plan to hike over to Burg Eltz, maybe do a river cruise, and possibly day trip over to the Rhine area. There also appears to be some wine festivals scattered throughout the area while we're there, but I'm having some difficulty discovering any information in english. This portion of our trip has been left purposely unstructured, so as to encourage a more relaxed tone.

As for the last night, although not ideal to drive by car, it would take us longer by train to get to FRA to fly out and we are confident that we will have enough time to get to the airport for our mid-morning flight home. It will just mean a very early morning departure for us and we are OK with that.

Lee, the reason we intend to fly to FRA is because my wife works for American and we fly standby. American has a direct leg from DFW to FRA. We will likely explore some additional direct to Munich standby options on airlines like Lufthansa, but for now, we are at the mercy of what American currently offers.

Re: Neuschwanstein. The goal, orginally, was to book the 11:55am tour. (Getting walk up tickets was never part of the plan.) Per RS's recommendation, we would figure on leaving Munich four hours prior to our tour time, so that 11:55am may shift later, but for argument's sake, let's say that. I'm figuring about two hours for the castle in total. That takes me to 2pm. We would be scheduling our paragliding session, which also should take about two hours in total. So, I'm hoping that our day in southern Bavaria is done by 5-6pm. Then, it's a two hour drive to Rothenburg.

This is not ideal, but, we believe doable. We know we are front-loading the trip pretty heavily, but we'll step on the brakes once we get through Rothenburg.

For Mosel, we would welcome any suggestions. We chose Mosel over the
Rhine because the pace seems slower and we hope will offer more
relaxation. We plan to hike over to Burg Eltz, maybe do a river
cruise, and possibly day trip over to the Rhine area.

Maybe your thought is to hike over to Reichsburg Castle from Ernst. But if you hope to tour Burg Eltz, the journey by car there and back is 50 km.

A cruise between Ernst and Beilstein is pleasant and possible; figure about 45-50 min. each way. Scenery coming back to Ernst is the same of course: http://www.moselrundfahrten.de/files/moselfahrplan_cochem_2017.pdf

A cruise between Bingen and St. Goar covers the best part of the Rhine and is vastly more dramatic than the Mosel cruise on account of the intense castle/vineyard/river-gorge scenery. Figure 90 minutes one way from Bingen. Return to Bingen by train after visiting St. Goar's Rheinfels Castle, or return by boat, which requires 2 hrs. 40 minutes because of the strong river current in that direction (and of course shows you the same scenery again.)

https://www.k-d.com/fileadmin/kataloge/KD_Timetable_intern_2017.pdf

There is no "fast pace" at all on the Rhine, only a couple of towns to avoid - Koblenz (a mostly modern city) and Rüdesheim (though if you don't mind the tour bus horde of Rothenburg, Rüdesheim might suit you; you'd need to cross the river somewhere though.) The Rhine towns of Boppard, Oberwesel and Boppard line up on the left/west bank of the Rhine - these are the most attractive and interesting towns for visitors.

There also appears to be some wine festivals scattered throughout the
area while we're there, but I'm having some difficulty discovering any
information in english.

Boppard does in fact have a wine fest that opens on 9/29. There are fireworks on Saturday night 9/30 (20:45) and not your average fireworks show either; festivities begin mid-afternoon that day - street music, wine stands... lots of local culture and color. There's no tent reservation to be made (no tents!) no minimum purchase, and no reservations needed, none of that O'fest routine. Just show up. No entrance fee either. I don't know of an English-language description of the Boppard fest but it's a popular one, the last big one of the season. Here's the German-language flyer from last year. (The lack of an English language flyer doesn't mean you won't find any international tourists there, but there will be relatively few - this is a mostly GERMAN event and you'll be rubbing elbows mostly with locals and visiting Germans. Expect a good time.)

https://www.boppard-tourismus.de/files/001bopp_wf_piel.jpg
http://prath.welterbe-mittelrhein.de/uploads/pics/IMG_20151030_232929_resized_web.jpg

In light of the Sat. night wine fest events here and in light of the (IMO) excellent suggestion you received from Lee about staying overnight in Mainz that night, I'd suggest that you check out of Ernst on the morning of 9/30 and do the following for a streamlined final day:

• Drive to Burg Eltz for a morning tour (if that's the castle you want.) Or do something else in the morning.

• Drive to Boppard. Park your car for the day.

• Take the train to Bingen.

• Cruise north, but cruise beyond St. Goar to Boppard. (this adds about 35 minutes to the cruise.)

• Enjoy the late pm/evening in Boppard. Enjoy the wine early on.

• Drive to Mainz for the night after the fireworks.