Need help understanding train systems

Discounted tickets in Germany and Austria, at least, come in two varieties.

First are the advance purchase fares for long distance trains. These ticket must include at least one leg by a long distance train of the Bahn (ICE, IC, or EC), sometimes of the national rail company of another country, such as an Austrian Rail Jet (RJ). The tickets require advance purchase of at least one day, but go on sale at the lowest prices (usually 29€) 92 days in advance. The prices are tiered, and when all of the tickets at the lowest price have been sold, the price goes up. Thay are called Savings Fare or SparPreis in Germany, SparSchiene in Austria.

These advance purchase tickets are specific to the long distance trains shown on the ticket and are non-refundable. Exchangeability is limited and there is a cost penalty if you do change them.

Generally, the tickets are for connections completely within the country that sells the ticket or with the start or end in that country. Sometimes, but not always, changes of trains are allowed outside the country.

Second are all-day, hop on/off, regional and country-wide passes for regional trains (such as the Bayern-Ticket for Bavaria or the Schönes-Wochenende- or Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket for all of Germany during the week or on weekends, respectively). There is also the similar Einfach-Raus-Ticket for all of Austria. These tickets are a fixed price (dependent on the number of travelers (1-5 in Germany or 2-5 for the Einfach-Raus-Ticket). there is no need for advance purchase; you can buy them right up to train time for the same price.

These tickets are shown on the national rail companies schedule and fare pages, http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en for Germany and www.oebb.at/en for Austria.

In your case, I don't see any discounted ticket for Lauterbrunnen to Salzburg from the Austria Rail website, but the German Rail site shows a ticket via Zürich and Munich for 138€ for 2 people vs 331€ full fare, a savings of 58%. There is also a 98€/2 ticket available, but it uses the Bahn Intercity bus for the Zürich to Munich leg; I'm not sure how you feel about that.

Do the day trip from Salzburg to Hallstatt RT via Attnang-Puchheim and Bad Ischl for 33€ with a 2 person Einfach-Raus-Ticket. You will need to to use regional trains between Salzburg and Attnang-Puchheim; the rest of the trip is only regional trains.

You can get Salzburg to Vienna from the Austrian Rail site. There is also a low cost train called Westbahn for that route.

You can get Vienna to Munich for 68€/2 from the Bahn. One day (2 nights) is enough time only for Munich itself, but if you must go outside Munich that day, use a 28€ Bayern-Ticket.

I see Munich Hbf to Frankfurt (Main) Hbf tickets for as low as 58€/2. If you stay in Mainz you can buy a Rheinland-Pfalz-Ticket (regional pass) for 2 people for 29€ to go from Mainz to the Rhein gorge. From Frankfurt, you'll need an S-Bahn ticket to Mainz (28€ for a group day ticket - Gruppentageskarte and the RL-P-Ticket. Alternately, but a Gruppentageskarte for Frankfurt Hbf to Bacharach Bhf for 44€ (covers RT for 2 people), go to Bacharach, take the boat trip to St. Goar, then come back on the train to Bacharach with a full fare ticket (7,60€/2), then use the Gruppentageskarte back to Frankfurt.

May 23 Lauterbrunnen-Salzburg is 8-9 hours on 4-5 different trains. Uggh.

Might be wiser to reorganize such that you travel 1.) from Zurich to Lauterbrunnen - then 2.) Lauterbrunnen to Luzern - then 3.) Luzern-Munich (about 5 hours using direct train to Zurich + the direct DB IC bus.)

That would mean shopping for legs 1 & 2 at the Swiss railways site. There are "super saver" fares at roughly half price of normal normally about 2 weeks in advance.
http://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/tickets-for-switzerland/supersaver-tickets.html

Shop for leg #3 Zurich-Munich at the DB site.

Also, Vienna-Frankfurt takes 7 hours. For shorter journeys... reorganize so that you travel Munich-Vienna (about 4 hours, shop DB site) then Vienna-Salzburg (about 2.5 hours, shop w/ Westbahn about €25 each), then Salzburg-Frankfurt (about 5 hours shop at DB.)

Shop for Hallstatt round trip from Salzburg at the Austrian Railways oebb.at site.

Instead of Frankfurt at the end, I would add a few miles so that you can base in Mainz - that gives you a better shot at day trips to the Middle Rhine Valley of reasonable length (about 30 minutes to Bingen where the great scenery starts - much longer from Frankfurt) and puts you in an interesting and attractive smaller city where you are only 20-25 minutes from FRA airport, and would certainly allow for a day trip into Frankfurt if you want to see it.

There are photos that portray Mainz well at this page.

Russ, since this is the Germany board, I didn't give the detail for Switzerland, but we'll be back in Luzern for a couple of days before we head out to Salzburg. We figured Salzburg is on the way to Vienna which we really wanted to see before we head back West to Munich. Luzern to Salzburg is still a long trip but not as bad as going all the way from Lauterbrunnen Valley. If I'm reading right, we can catch a RailJet train in Zurich to make it a little faster. So I was figuring 6 to 7 hours max for that leg.

"...we'll be back in Luzern for a couple of days before we head out to Salzburg."
That makes it a tad easier.

Not much time in/around Munich/Bavaria. It's Vienna that makes this whole trip more rigorous than necessary in light of the absence of the many Bavarian destinations you're bypassing - but if it's a must see for you...

Like you, I found it a major headache to figure out train travel through Europe. My suggestion, as long as you are willing to spend some $$$ for the convenience and piece of mind is to contact "raileurope.com".

I found them very knowledgeable and capable. They spent whatever time needed to assist me with my trip. I may have paid a premium, but it is worth it to have them prepare my train itinerary. No headaches.

Or PM Russ or me. Not sure if RailEurope would want to advise you so you could purchase the tickets directly form Austrian or German Rail, and tickets from RailEurope will be more expensive than from the national real companies. Also, I'm not sure RailEurope even recognizes all train options.

You might be better off contacting Eurail, but their advice is not cheap.

Lee makes a very valid point. Raileurope exists to sell only certain passes and tickets to a cornered, under-informed tourist market. I doubt its agents are trained or otherwise informed enough to advise you on the multitude of options from which the European public routinely chooses.

Let's say you and DW or DH want to use the train for 7 days in Germany, and 3 of those days involve day trips from, say Nuremberg; well, as far as RE is concerned, you need either a 7-day rail pass, or full fare tickets. 2nd class? That will be $504, please. After all, it would cost €116 round trip for two (plus perhaps a small mark-up for Raileurope) in second class just for ONE day trip to Würzburg and back (about 1 hour each way) on point-to-point tickets. So the railpass is a bargain. (Isn't it?)

Well, €116 is what German Railways would charge at a ticket counter on the day of travel as well. But that's still some real deception by RE - they aren't going to tell you about or sell you what a local would buy - a regional day pass for €28 total for two. If your second day trip is to Regensburg, that's also €28 if you're on a day pass (but RE, which sells only full-fare tickets, will probably quote you at least €84.) And it's only €18 on a VGN day pass if your day trip is to Bamberg. So the local pays only €74 total for 2 adults doing 3 day trips vs. whatever RE will quote you total for the same trips (probably €300+.) To the RE customer, the 7-day railpass at $504 looks dirt cheap if just 3 short trips are €300+!!

But Lee or I would probably suggest the day pass options; as for the other 4 days, if they justified a railpass, we'd likely let you know that as well. Let's say a railpass were in order. 4 days/ 2 adults on a twinpass is €308 at DB (vs. $380 or €337 at RE!) + €74 for 3 day passes and you total out at €382 - that's $431.

And it's not only about price; we'd also let you know that unlike the rail passes, the day passes cover you on public transport within the cities you'll be visiting, and that you don't have to buy your days in advance (as you do when you buy a railpass.)

It's not that Lee and I are or some of the other knowledgeable folks here are geniuses. You could probably strike up a conversation at any train station with a local German who could give you ticketing advice that is more complete than RailEurope's in most respects.

I am going to suggest you spend a full day traveling from Luzern to Vienna on May 23 and hit Salzburg on the way back. Right now, you can get a Sparschiene ticket for the Zurich-Vienna portion for 39 euro/P.
Heading back to Salzburg, Westbahn operates a train every hour with ticket prices of 25.50 euro/P. Tickets can be bought on the train.
To Munich from Salzburg with a Bayern ticket is 28 euro/2 P and includes all the public transport in Munich until the wee hours of the next day (3:00 am).

Thank you all again. There seems to be a consensus to look beyond the big Eurail-type pass retailers. Russ, so are you suggesting making our way day-to-day and buying tickets direct at the train stations, looking for day passes or regional passes? Which leads me to the next question: if I rely on ticket agents at train stations, can I expect them to a.) be knowledgeable on the options, and b.) be honest with a clueless foreign tourist?

Hi,
Avoid Rail Europe. I use a rail pass bought from Eurail. Would I with your itinerary and this trip duration, the answer is no, If you want max flexibility, I would suggest the train travel on Westbahn from 23 May to 29 May instead taking the Austrian Rail trains. The fares are cheaper, the trains are great, pay on board, just you do on a bus. It seems from the listed itinerary you intend to stay put on the days between Salzburg and Munich, more reason for not getting a rail pass.

On having your questions answered at the train station as a "clueless foreign tourist, " (why that description at all?), you'll find lots of tourists will be doing likewise as you at the ticket counter. Every Austrian Rail staff person I've overheard at counters speaking to tourist speakers fluent English, certainly not broken or "teils, teils" (half and half)

"Russ, so are you suggesting making our way day-to-day and buying tickets direct at the train stations, looking for day passes or regional passes?"

No, I mentioned those passes only in my sidebar post about RailEurope's flaws - not as advice to you necessarily.

Every itinerary will call for at least slightly different ticketing strategies. Yours involves some very long trips that should be done by high-speed train where available, so in lieu of a railpass, you need to be checking advance-purchase saver fares... You've gotten some suggestions for itinerary re-organization, but if you are sticking with your original itinerary, as I understand it anyway, below are my ticketing thoughts.

Zurich airport - Lauterbrunnen and Lauterbrunnen - Lucerne ... I suggested checking the Swiss Railways site for Super Saver fares (see info link above.) You can check right now on "dummy" travel dates approximately two weeks in advance to get some idea of what fares will be available when you check back around the first week of May - but like I said, these fares are not made public very far in advance.

Lucerne - Salzburg... As Lee and Sam have suggested, check Austrian railways - I see Saver Tickets (Sparscheine) priced at €68/2 adults on May 23 for some departures.
Salzburg - Vienna... Westbahn tickets (can be bought on the train or in advance online)
Vienna - Munich... Check DB and Austrian Railways. I see €68/2 adults for May 29 right now at DB.
Munich-Frankfurt... I see some €38 and €58/2 adults fares right now at DB.

So not including your first 2 trips within Switzerland, your subtotal (the last 4 of your 6 travel legs) at current prices looks to be around €225/2 adults, maybe a little more depending on your choice of departure time. That's if you take advantage of fares available right now. As tickets sell between now and your trip, prices for the saver fares will rise.

"Which leads me to the next question: if I rely on ticket agents at train stations, can I expect them to a.) be knowledgeable on the options, and b.) be honest with a clueless foreign tourist?"

These people are normally very good - but if you choose to rely on them for tickets, they cannot turn back the ticket prices to the advance sale prices. You will pay a ton more if you travel that way. If your trip is all pre-planned and pre-scheduled, you should either be using pre-purchased saver fares or multi-country railpasses (which to me seem pretty pricey compared with current saver fare options.)

Ok, Fred, I will withdraw my comment about being "clueless." As a matter of fact, the experts here have already given me many clues and I am most thankful for the information. And by next month I will have studied the materials many more hours. My reference to clueless was in recognition of having never set foot in Europe, not knowing the native language (although I'm studying that too), and trying to figure out a complex mix of transportation option and fares. I didn't realize how much work this would be, but it's all quite fun too.

Russ, thanks you for the clarification. I'll get busy looking for the saver fares and such. Last night I downloaded the SBB app to my phone. It looks fairly straight forward. Now it's on to the other train sites you've all suggested. Thank you so much.

Hi,

My compliments on your efforts to acquire German as a foreign language. Prima ! Keep at it, keep practicing!

For those providing advice.. where did you learn about the options? Would like to be able to do my own research on trains..

The man in seat 61 website is an excellent place to start.

Stray comments:

Man in seat 61 is not reliable for pricing advice if getting the lowest price is your priority.

You can buy your ticket from any national website that the train journey touches, and the pricing is likely to not be the same on any given day. You can even sometimes buy a ticket from a national website when your journey does not enter that country. For example for a train journey from Venice to Innsbruck, this train goes all the way to Munich, so you may purchase your ticket on trenitalia (Italy), oebb.at (Austria), or bahn.com(Germany) and the three websites will all offer different prices for the same journey.

The Austrian website oebb.at will start to sell tickets 6 months in advance, so if you want to buy a discounted ticket look early since they may be gone 4 months before departure. I'm not sure they have a print tickets at home option, so if you start your journey outside Austria you may have to pay to have your tickets mailed to you.

The german webiste bahn.com will start to sell tickets 90 days in advance, they will release their discounted tickets then and it comes from a different basket than what other national websites are selling, so for example even if oebb.at has already sold out its super discounted tickets at 120 days before departure, bahn.com will bring out a fresh batch 90 days out. They allow a print at home option.

Tom, do you have examples of pricing misinformation from the Man in Seat 61? I have always found the prices accurate and up to date, especially the cheap fares, on that site.

Most of the same tips are also on the rail travel pages of this web site; see for instance https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/transportation/trains/germany-rail-passes#ticket-tips.

Man in seat 61:

There's no summary of how far in advance tickets go on sale for each county's website (90 days, 180 days, whatever) and no strategies about getting the cheapest fares. Nothing I put in my post is on his website, it's my own hard knock experience.

It would be nice if someone somewhere put up a matrix of elements per country's rail website:

1. How many days out do they put tickets on sale

2. Do they charge for seat reservations in first class? second? both?

3. What ages do children ride for free?

For Germany,

1. 92 days in advance.

2. 4,50€ for a reservation on a single ticket. Up to two trains in one direction. 9€ for a "family reservation".

3. 0 - 5 years - free. 6 - 14 years - free when riding with a ticketed parent or grandparent.

Note: For regional passes, one adult and all of their children or grandchildren plus one other adult (could be other parent, or one child over 14, or a friend). Cannot be all children of two adults nor up to five people plus all the children of one adult.

If one reads the DB website when reserving at the max time allowed, ie 92 days out, all the information is there, including the prices, 1st, 2nd class, seat reservation cost, instructions on how to pay, print the ticket, etc.