Munich, Bavaria, Vienna?

We've been to Munich, Vienna, and Salzburg, on 2 different trips, and didn't have a car in either case. You can do some day trips from Munich by train; we did a trip to a lovely lakeside village that had an abbey/brewery. And maybe you could even take an overnight trip by train to one of those places. In Vienna, we didn't leave the city proper, but did visit a wine village in the hills, via tram, that seemed like it was far away from the city. Salzburg is great, and is much smaller than either Vienna or Munich. As to a car, the only problem with getting a car in Germany and returning it in Austria is a possibly very high one-way fee.

This is difficult. I understand that you have a limited time. For me two full days (three nights?) at one location allows you time to see what you want and provides time to relax. If you chose to do the whirlwind tour to maximize you experience that is your choice and I fully understand. I got the cities Munich and Vienna. Honestly “castleing” is catch as catch can. What exactly are you expecting to see, a ruin. a restored place, an overnight? There are really so many places to visit. I am a car person, so for me that's the way to travel. Maybe Füssen and Neuschwanstein would work for you with sometime in the lesser traveled places like a walk around the Schwansee and a stay in Schwangau? Lake side at the Bodensee or Chemsee? Maybe a dip into Austria for the Achensee and the Austrian natural Park in Karwendel, with a gondle up the Rofan?. Mostly nature with a base in Pertisau? Maybe you pick a relaxing middle point for two days and full touristic the rest of the way? Berchtessgarden and Konigsee? I think the Königssee National Park area is one of the most beautiful places to see. Maybe a stay in Schönau a. Königssee and a boat ride out to St. Bartholomä? The Seilbahn up the Jenner mountain and a walk down?

Thanks for the advice and plenty of ideas!

I agree it is challenging, which is part of why I am wrestling with not going to Vienna so we have time to spend more time outside of the city. Also if we flew in and out of Munich and did not go to Vienna renting a car becomes easier / cheaper....

I too usually like 3 nights in a place but with so many places to see it is hard to choose :) I will certainly look into the various options you through out. Thanks much.

Ah, and in regards to castles I am actually less interested in the fancifully restored and more interested in your.... I don't know how to describe, medieval style structures whether restored or not. Although it seems you can't go and not stop in at least one of the Ludwig castles.

I give you permission to skip Vienna. In 10 days, I'd do this:

Day 1 - Munich
Day 2 - Munich
Day 3 - Drive (yes rent a car) to Seefeld (castles, hiking, Mittenwald, alps)
Day 4 - Seefeld
Day 5 - Seefeld
Day 6 - Seefeld to Wolfgangsee
Day 7 - Wolfgangsee (Lakes, Salzburg, Hallstatt)
Day 8 - Wolfgangsee
Day 9 - Wolfgangsee
Day 10 - return to Munich

"...best memories came from our time outside the major cities in the Swiss Alps (Murren) and on the Mediterranean coast in Catalan country (Collioure)."
"We also happen to be suckers for natural beauty..."
"I am actually less interested in the fancifully restored and more interested in your.... I don't know how to describe, medieval style structures whether restored or not... Although it seems you can't go and not stop in at least one of the Ludwig castles."

My teacher-wife and I share your interests and have often traveled in June for the same reasons. A lot of that travel has been to Germany. What strikes me most about your post is the disparity between what you say you enjoy most and your itinerary, which places you in major cities for at least 2/3 of your time. IMO "must-see syndrome" is a weakness we all have, one to overcome if possible. Big-name and high-visibility destinations CAN be minimized or skipped if they don't suit you.

Here's what makes sense to me.

Thu, Fri, Sat, for castles, natural scenery, old-world towns, a little time on the water... The Middle Rhine Valley with a side trip to the Mosel Valley.

There are 40 Middle Rhine Castles in a 40-mile stretch of river dotted with small old-world towns like Bacharach and Braubach. Some castles like MARKSBURG (in Braubach, completely preserved and never destroyed) and RHEINFELS (in St. Goar, ruined) can be toured and are reachable on foot or by shuttle. Others like Reichenstein and Auf Schönburg are now hotels. Bacharach's castle is a youth hostel.

Trains cover both sides of the river between Bingen in the south and Koblenz in the north, offering awesome scenery. Trails on both sides skirt the clifftops and connect the towns as well. The Rheinburgenweg (Rhine Castle trail) covers the most popular towns, the ones on the west bank. Day cruise boats allow an even better view of the scenery than the trains offer. Ferries like this one in St. Goar get you to the other river bank (no bridges across this wide river between Koblenz and Mainz.)

You reach the Middle Rhine Valley very easily in about 1 hour by train if you fly into FRA (and later out of MUC.)

The Mosel Valley can easily be reached by train as well. A day trip here might include Cochem and Burg Eltz Castle (also intact, with tours.)

SUNDAY - Leave the Rhine around 2 pm by train, arrive Munich around 7 pm.
MONDAY - In Munich.
TUE - FRI - In the Berchtesgaden/Königssee region (you may or may not want a car - depends on your outings.)

Königssee
Day trip to Salzburg
Day trip to Chiemsee Lake and Ludwig's Herrenchiemsee Palace (on the big island in the photo)
Herrenchiemsee Palace info

SATURDAY: Whatever, then final night at MUC airport, in Munich, or in nearby Freising

Thanks Emily, very helpful, although I suspect maybe you gave me permission to keep one more tourist off your streets :)

I was considering something similar last night, few days in munich, rent a car, head southwest for a few days and find a good "base" to explore that area from and then head east from there, find another base to explore from, and then return back to munich, drop car, etc.

Thanks for the recommendations on good home bases. How quick is it to cross the border from Austria into Germany? I had considered potentially having the first stop (near Seefeld) being on the German side and the second stop being in Austria to limit the amount of time spent at borders? Unless you meant Seefeld Germany?

Russ - thanks and I agree about itinerary, I think I am always drawn to "open jaw" as it inherently means you get to see more, but I think I may have underestimated how much there is to see and do in the Bavaria / Tirol area. The distances are closer than our last multi country trip so I thought hey maybe traveling from A to B won't even really feel like a "travel" day, but last night my wife pointed out she measures them in times she has to pack and unpack her suitcase :)

As I've tried to research good places to stay outside of Munich, assuming two, the Rhine Valley area keeps popping up, so I think I need to weigh that against the two stops southwest / southeast of Munich and making a loop as mentioned above to Emily.

Lot's to think about, thanks again!

My favorite day trip from Munich is to take the S8 southwestbound to the end of the line at Herrsching. Walk a couple hundred meters to the lakefront and board one of the stately paddlewheel ships which cross the Ammersee to my favorite untouristed Bavarian village, Dießen am Ammersee. Dießen is a popular destination for German weekenders, but it's not on the international tourist grid at all. Walk through Dießen up to the baroque-rococo Marienmünster Abbey (1730). Return to Herrsching by ship and take a taxi or bus, or walk three miles up a forested trail, to Kloster Andechs, where Benedictine monks have been brewing great beer since the 15th Century. (Photos of Herrsching, Dießen and Andechs here)

(There are nice hotels in both Herrsching and Dießen; either would make a good home base southwest of Munich.)

Or take S2 about 20 minutes from Hauptbahnhof to Oberschleißheim, and visit the magnificent, colorful Schleißheim Palaces, summer home of the Bavarian royal family. Aviation history buffs will enjoy Flugwerft Schleißheim (aviation branch of the Deutsches Museum), a short walk from the Schleißheim Palaces.

Tourists have yet to discover Ingolstadt, a charming, friendly town about halfway between Munich and Nürnberg. There are many historic buildings in the old center, including the former Anatomy Building of the University of Ingolstadt, now the German Museum of Medical History. Gardens in the courtyard are made up of medicinal herbs and plants. The building was the setting for Mary Shelley's original 1818 novel Frankenstein. Tours are available of the Audi factory, just outside the old center. Ingolstadt self-guided walking tour available here.

In Munich itself, the self-guided walking tour in Rick's Germany guidebook is excellent. It can take anywhere from two hours to two days, depending on your level of interest and curiosity.

For insight into Munich's dramatic role in the rise and fall of the Third Reich, visit the new NS Doku-Zentrum, which just opened last May. It's on Briennerstraße, on the site of the Third-Reich-era Nazi headquarters building. Führerbau (Hitler's office building, where the 1938 Munich Accord was signed) is next door, repurposed as a High School for Music and Theater. Historic Königsplatz is across the street. The City's website offers free downloadable maps and audioguides for self-guided walks tracing the history of National Socialism in Munich.