Mosel/Rhine Valley -- questions on some details

You have lots of reasonable questions about the details. I think maybe your willingness to start trimming your plans on the Mosel River - and the absence of Rheinfels in St. Goar, as well as even one of the four lifts you can take to points above the Rhine gorge for some incredible views... these are signs that you really could use an extra night somewhere, possibly in Cochem.

Also, one or more of you may not be up for doing anything at all in the pm of Day 1 after a possibly sleep-deprived night on the plane.

Free transport tickets are probably the VRM guest tickets. These come AFTER check in. You will need to purchase your tickets from FRA to Cochem, but this ding will not hurt badly. However, you won't receive the free Guest ticket there unless you happen to book with one of the few Cochem/St. Goar innkeepers on this list. Look under the "ORT" column for Cochem:

https://www.vrminfo.de/fileadmin/data_vrminfo/PDF/Gaesteticket/VRM-Gaesteticketvertraege_Jan_24.1.pdf

Again, however, reasonably-priced day tickets for your group can be purchased if you aren't booking with these places.

The Guest Ticket is available at EVERY lodging establishment in Boppard, just 12 train minutes north of St. Goar. It's a nice town with many lodging/dining options as well as nice riverfront promenade and may be a good alternative to staying in St. Goar.

Question: What are your current plans after breakfast on the morning of Day 4?

Russ, thank you very much for the very prompt and helpful reply! I think we will definitely add another day here, most likely in Cochem.

The VRM Guest Tickets -- do they cover the entire area between Cochem, Koblenz and Bingen?

The plan after breakfast on Day 4 is still to be determined. As mentioned, we would like to head to the Black Forest with maybe a stop in Heidelberg (leave our bags at the station and see the town), spend maybe 2-3 nights in the Black Forest, then on to Salzburg, Munich and Rothenburg, then fly back to London from either Frankfurt or Muncih. Any suggestions on this part would also be very helpful.

Also, any suggestions on the other questions in my original post?

Thanks everyone!

The VRM Guest Tickets -- do they cover the entire area between Cochem, Koblenz and Bingen?

They cover the entire VRM transit authority zone (+ a teeny bit more along the southeast bank of the Rhine.) You can use them to travel BEYOND Cochem along the Mosel and FAR BEYOND Koblenz to the north along the Rhine. However, BINGEN and BACHARACH, on the west bank of the Rhine, lie outside the VRM to the south and are NOT covered. The map below shows the complete area of coverage for the Guest Ticket.

https://www.vrminfo.de/fileadmin/data_vrminfo/PDF/Gaesteticket/Infoflyer_Gaesteticket_englisch_2022.pdf

So... for your planned cruise day... any train ride south from either Boppard or St. Goar to Bacharach and Bingen will be covered only as far as OBERWESEL. Normal DB tickets must be purchased from Oberwesel to Bingen to supplement your guest ticket and should be bought prior to boarding the train to Bingen. Figure €35 for 4 adults for this. Just stay on the train when it stops in Oberwesel. Your Oberwesel > Bingen ticket is valid the second your train departs and valid for a stopover in Bacharach that same day as well. 2 hours - sounds like enough to me.

The alternative would be to cross the Rhine using one of the ferry crossings (roughly €2 each) and to ride the east bank train to the town of Rüdesheim for cruise-boat boarding. The VRM ticket is valid for all lf that track - no supplemental ticket is needed.

Thanks again, Russ. Crossing to the other side to use the free ticket sounds attractive, but then we wouldn't be able to stop in Bacharach, correct? If so I think it's worth it to pay for the train and make the stop in Bacharach. Or is it possible to get off at Bacharach on the cruise and get back on again on the next boat?

Thanks for all the very useful info.

More about the cruise...

The schedule is not yet out for 2024. Our guesses are based on 2023...

Those two KD boats in the afternoon leave Rüdesheim at 14:15 and 16:15. They cross the Rhine to Bingen and leave there at 14:30 and 16:30. (On MONDAYS, there is no 16:15/16:30 afternoon boat. Just the earlier one.)

Both boats go to St. Goar (16:05 and 18:05) but the early boat terminates there; only the 2nd one continues on to Boppard (18:50.) So if your goal is to cruise to Boppard, then boarding that 14:15 or 14:30 boat will mean you need to wait in St. Goar for a follow-up boat (at 17:30 or 17:55.)

It is indeed possible to step off the boat in Bacharach between 15:15 and 17:15... as long as it's not a MONDAY (when that 2nd boat is not running.) You will need to ask the boat personnel to mark your ticket for reboarding.

Advance-sale tickets do not guarantee seats on the boat. Boats are unlikely to sell out, I think. But to enhance your chances of sitting where you like, boarding in Rüdesheim might help - then you are part of that crowd, rather than boarding AFTER all those R'heim cruisers have boarded.

Train to Black Forest: Look into advance-sale, train-specific, non-refundable saver fares at the DB site. If stopping in Heidelberg, you will need to schedule a set period for your stopover time there when ticketing - and you'll need to get back to the station in a timely way too if you have long-distance IC/ICE trains for the 2nd part of your journey.

Baden-Baden is not representative of the Black Forest and a poor base town for train travelers who will do outings. Suggest you look into Gengenbach as a base town. Gengenbach is well located for outings and offers the KONUS card to all guests (free use of the rail system around the Black Forest.)

https://prospektbestellung.toubiz.de/media/prospekt/file/5736289_KONUS_GB_2022.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkgzMXQ7blQ

Thanks! If we choose to cross the river, and assuming we are staying in St Goar, where do we cross -- St Goar to St Goarhausen? Is there a ferry timetable?

Now, if we do that (cross the river and train to Rudesheim) and also want to see Bingen, I assume we can take the ferry from Rudesheim to Bingen and then catch the cruise to Bacharach & St Goar from Bingen, again is there a timetable for the ferry? Are Bingen and Rudesheim quite different, really worth seeing both?

Sorry to pepper you with so many questions but I want to gather as much info as possible so I can make an informed decision. Thanks so much for your willingness to share!

As far as Black Forest, yes we don't plan to stay in Baden-Baden, rather Gegenbach as you suggest.

Yes - St. Goarshausen's train station is a short walk from the ferry crossing to St. Goar. The ferry shuttles back and forth all day, but trains are less frequent - so time your ferry crossing such that once you're on the St. Goarshausen side, you have the right amount of time to catch the next southbound train to Rüdesheim.

https://faehre-loreley.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Fahrplan_2024.pdf

IMHO Bingen is valuable as a boarding/deboarding and transport town but offers less to see and do than the Rüdesheim, Bacharach, and Oberwesel.

R'heim > Bingen foot-passenger ferry schedule:

https://www.bingen-ruedesheimer.de/rheinfaehren/personenfaehre/

(There is also a car ferry which invites pedestrians, but it is a hefty distance upstream from Bingen.)

Would Bernkastel Kues be feasible, if so how does one go there, it
seems the train doesn’t, is there a bus?

Yes. It takes about an hour each way. Sample schedule:

9:15 - 10:13: Cochem > Wittlich by train (27 min) + Wittlich > "Forum, Bernkastel-Kues" by bus (27 min.)

(Reverse sequence to return; the DB site provides itineraries for both the train AND the connecting bus.)

Alternatively you can take the train to Traben-Trarbach and take the 2-hour cruise from there to B-K.

Train: 9:15 - 9:56 (includes one change of train in Bullay)

Cruise schedule: https://www.moselrundfahrten.de/files/moselfahrplan_bernkastel_2023.pdf?v2
(Box on bottom left - several cruises per day, schedule depends on day of week, time of year.)

Thanks. Yes, I think we will add 1 day in Cochem and do the trip to Benkastel-Kues.

If as you suggest that we stay in Boppard, the other option I am thinking of is to take the train Boppard to Oberwesel, spend some time there, then cross by ferry to the other side (is there a ferry there?, what is the name of the town/station on the other side?), then train to Rudesheim (skip Bingen) and then cruise back to Bacharach, 1-2 hour stop, and then continue cruise to St Goar, and train back to Boppard. Is that all doable in 1 day? And in that case the only paid tickets would be the ferry to cross the Rhine and the cruise back, correct?

As I recall, the wonderful little town of Beilstein doesnt have rail service, if that matters. Anyone know different.

The Kaub ferry crossing is too far south of Oberwesel to be of any use. Below is a suggested plan you might play around with.

Day 1: "Train from FRA to Cochem, arriving Cochem around 2 PM"

Drop bags at hotel; cruise to Beilstein 15:00 - 16:00. Return by bus 17:07 - 17:33. Dinner in Cochem.

Day 2:
Morning hours in Cochem. Then...
10:41 - 11:39 train + bus > Bernkastel (3.75 hours in town with lunch.)

Two Return to Cochem options:
- Cruise Bernkastel > Traben-Trarbach 15:20 - 17:00 PLUS 17:15 - 18:20 bus + train to Cochem
OR...
- 15:15 - 16:18 bus + train to Cochem

Day 3:

Breakfast, leave bags with front desk...
8:44 - 9:38... train + bus to Eltz Castle for tour
12:22 - 13:14... bus + train return to Cochem, late lunch. Take the chairlift ride or shuttle up to Cochem castle for views? Fetch bags.
17:19 - 18:14... train to Boppard.

(I have heard on this forum that Eltz will hold bags. You may want to look into this option to avoid the return trip to Cochem... which would allow you to spend your afternoon in Boppard rather than Cochem if you wish.)

Day 4:

I think you'll be hard-pressed to fit in all you want. This itinerary with a southbound cruise might work for you. Trains would all be free.

8:15 - 8:28... train to Oberwesel: 1.4 hours for the town wall walk
9:54 - 10:00... train to St. Goar; Rheinfels Castle tour and old town, lunch... 3.25 hrs
13:15 - 14:30... cruise to Bacharach: 2.8 hours to walk the town, have some refreshmens
17:20 - 19:00... cruise to Rüdesheim. Walk the old town zone
20:06 - 21:44... Return to Boppard by train via Koblenz

Wow! I can't imagine how much work you put in to do this for me. Thanks so much!

Finding schedules that work around the different transport zones on all the different types of transport that are needed and with various ticketing conventions is a bit of a hat trick to pull off if you haven't been around the block a few times.

Please understand that by "play around with", I mean that this is unlikely to be a "plug-and-play" schedule. I posted it to show what might be possible so that you might look it over to see if it will actually fly for your group and their interests. Everything will need to be double-checked for your dates at a minimum; this plan completely ignores your specific travel dates, which I do not know, and I expect that on some dates these schedules will probably not apply. . The 2023 boat schedules do not reflect any cruise schedule changes that have yet to be made for 2024.

Notes on stop names to use at the DB site:

Cochem > Bernkastel train + bus trip: I used Forum, Bernkastel-Kues for the Bernkastel stop.
Beilstein > Cochem bus trip: I used "Moselstraße/Fähre, Beilstein (Mosel)" for the stop.

Got it, Russ. This is an invaluable framework, but I'll validate everything once our dates are set and 2024 timetables are available. Thanks again!

Hi Russ, could you also give some advice on visiting the Black Forest? We would plan to arrive in Gengenbach from Boppard sometime in the evening around 6 pm, after having stopped in Heidelberg on the way. The next day we plan to wander the forest by train and/or bus using the Konus card.
1. You mention we should get non-refundable saver fares to Gengenbach. Is there a way on bahn.de to specify that? And do these fares allow a stopover (at Heidelberg), or do we have to get separate tickets for the 2 legs?
2. I had read the baggage lockers at Heidelberg Hbf are being replaced, none currently available. What is the best way to get an update on those, if they might be replaced by May?
3. In Gengenbach, will the Konus card be available from every hotel/inn, or do we have to be selective?
4. In the BF our plan is to take a train to Schiltach, then to Gutach, Triberg, Villingen, Donauerschingen, Titisee and/or Schluchsee.
• Is all that possible in 1 day? I assume I can find the train timetables on bahn.de, but I don’t know how much time will be needed at each spot.
• It seems like there are 2 Gutachs: in the Konus card map 1 in grid C4, 1 in B4, I believe the one in C4 (Gutach Schwarzwald Bahn) is the one of interest?
• In Triberg, I believe the falls are far from the station, is there a bus or taxi available? We don’t mind a 15-20 minutes walk if it’s a pleasant route. In Donauerschingen is the Danube source similarly far from the station?
• Is there something we should do instead of or in addition to the above (e.g. Halsach, Hausach, Neustadt, Ravenna Gorge). If all this is too much for a day, what should we omit? Our interest is mainly seeing scenery and quaint/attractive villages/towns, not keen on museums, breweries etc
• From Titisee/Schluchsee what would be the best way back to Gengebach – retrace our steps, or go via Freiburg?

Thanks as always!

From Titisee/Schluchsee what would be the best way back to Gengebach – retrace our steps, or go via Freiburg?

If you go over to Freiburg im Breisgau and you are using a KONUS pass you will need to be sure not to take the fast ICE or IC north to Offenberg where you turn right for the short hop to Gengenbach.

If you retrace your steps you'll see all the same places - but from the other side so it looks different......

In Gengenbach, will the Konus card be available from every hotel/inn, or do we have to be selective?

I've always had it wherever I've stayed in or near Gengenbach, but I would certainly check.

In Triberg, the bus meets the train. Don’t delay getting on it. my wifehad to use the station restroom and when done, the bus was gone. It isn’t a bad walk from the station to the falls, but it is a tenle uphill

1: One ticket for Boppard > Gengenbach. You CAN pre-purchase a saver fare as I suggested before. However, saver fares are non-refundable. They are issued only when the journey you select contains one or more high-speed long distance trains (like the IC, ICE, and EC trains.) After reviewing the options I am now reluctant to suggest buying one of these for the Heidelberg stopover trip for these reasons...

a) You would be required to ride those specific ICE, ICE and EC trains on the schedule that comes with your booking. If it says you must catch a 10:15 ICE train on May 16, that's what you are committing to by purchasing in advance, and there's no refund if you change your mind or just miss your train.

b) With a stopover trip, it's the same issue with any of those same trains that are on your schedule between Heidelberg and Gengenbach. You will have no flexibility to stay longer or leave earlier in Heidelberg - you'll be on a dictatorial schedule.

I suggest instead a "local transport only" trip so that you have complete flexibility. The regional trains (RE, RB, S, SWE) are in this group of local transport. To find a schedule, use a departure time from Boppard of 9:00 am; also, use the STOPOVER feature and enter Heidelberg-Altstadt (closest station to the old town) with 00:00 stopover time, and use the MODE OF TRANSPORT feature to specify "local transport only."

I can't be sure without your date. But you should see two 9:16 departures. One of those arrives at 15:05 and uses RE and S trains for the whole trip to Gengenbach. The price on the right should be €73/4 adults. Click on the price, and you will see that this is the Quer durchs Land Ticket - a day pass that offers unlimited travel for all of Germany on all regional trains (NOT the IC, ICE, EC.)

Now, do NOT buy this ticket. You will buy this QdL Ticket on whatever day in may that you choose to travel, or maybe a day before for convenience - you can do that at a ticket machine in Boppard, or using the DB app. And on that day, you can use this schedule to reach Heidelberg-Altstadt... you can stay as long as you like there... and then ride ANY sequence of regional trains you wish from there to Gengenbach later that day. (Note that if it's a Saturday or Sunday the QdL Ticket is valid before 9 am.) The QdL ticket, like any ticket using regional trains, is not schedule-specific as long as you use the regional trains on the same day.

You can preview the afternoon/evening regional train options for your trip from Heidelberg to Gengenbach by checking "local transport only" when you search.

2: The TI office at Heidelberg station may be able to keep bags for you - many TI offices do this - but if ANYONE knows when the lockers will be replaced, it's them. Suggest you contact them directly and ask about dropping bags there as an option.

https://www.heidelberg.de/english/Home/Visit/Tourist+Information.html

1. All Gengenbach hosts participate. Same thing in the other 100+ Black Forest KONUS towns. Individual hosts cannot choose to opt out.

2. Not really feasible. I'd suggest Gutach Schwarzwaldbahn first and foremost for the Vogtsbauernhof open-air museum. It's a museum in name only, a great indoor/outdoor experience that introduces you to what life's been like in this area for hundreds of years. After that, you might have time for the scenic ride to Triberg, then back to Schiltach and Gengenbach. On a second day I would head to Titisee via Freiburg, then move on to Donaueschingen and perhaps Villingen before Gengenbach. These will both be long days. How much time in each place? You'll need to refer to the train travel times between these places and play it by ear.

The TI office at Heidelberg station may be able to keep bags for you - many TI offices do this - but if ANYONE knows when the lockers will be replaced, it's them.

According to this press release, the TI has now set up its own lockers at the station because they were fed up with the DB's dallying around.

Thanks everyone -- Nigel, stephen, Russ, ala019! This is very helpful and I think I should be able to put together my plan now. Thanks again.

I'm looking to book at one of the inns in Cochem that give the VRM Guest Ticket. However, I can't seem to find any online booking site (e.g. Booking.com) for them. What is the best way to book? Thanks.

What is the name of the inn?

I am trying to see what's available at any of them. The list I have is:
Cochem-Zell Cochem Ferienwohnung Ana Lastro
Cochem-Zell Cochem Ferienwohnung Burgblick Cochem, Ulf Schwichtenberg
Cochem-Zell Cochem Flair Hotel am Rosenhügel (Rupp-Neyer GbR)
Cochem-Zell Cochem Hotel Beim Weinbauer Thomas Göbel
Cochem-Zell Cochem Jose Ohlberger Ferienwohnung "Haus Jose"
Cochem-Zell Cochem Ferienwohnung Cyba
Cochem-Zell Cochem Ferienwohnung Haus Dana
Cochem-Zell Cochem Ferienwohnung Carpe Diem

Currently I am planning on 16 -18 May for 4 adults, but might change.

Thanks

I usually try to find the individual apartment website and get in touch with the owner directly. I've also used 'Traum Frerienwohnungen' before. Here is one of the fewos from your list:

https://www.traum-ferienwohnungen.de/78280/?persons=2&filter=L2V1cm9wYS9kZXV0c2NobGFuZC9mZXJpZW5sYW5kX2NvY2hlbS9jb2NoZW0vMi1wZXJzb25lbi8%3D&sp=13

Another: https://www.traum-ferienwohnungen.de/372494/?persons=2

Flair Hotel am Rosenhügel:

https://www.hotel-am-rosenhuegel.de/en/
https://www.booking.com/hotel/de/flairamrosenhuegel.html

I checked a couple of others on the list that have reasonable locations but didn't find availability on your dates. If the Guest-Ticket list doesn't pan out for you, there will still be inexpensive day passes available at the station (VRM Mini-group ticket or Rheinland-Pfalz ticket) - and the limited # of the Guest-Ticket options in Cochem will not be dictating your accommodations choices. Better to find a place that best meets your needs, I think.

I like Traum-ferienwohnungen as well - have found some good places with the site.

The company has this English-language presence as well... but listings are not quite as numerous as they are with the German version. I set it up for Cochem:

https://www.vacation-apartments.com/europe/germany/cochem_holiday_region/cochem/results/

Thanks. Looks like these are all booked for my dates, so as Russ suggested I'll look ath other hotels/inns. Thanks again.

I should mention the official DJH youth hostel in Cochem, which offers private family rooms with bath and bunks. It's very near Cochem's Waterpark facility - the Moselbad or Freizeitzentrum Cochem - an outstanding place for families to recreate no matter the weather. Groups of school kids and/or sports teams on outings from German and other European schools tend to stay in hostels too. Kids always find kids from other countries fascinating, I think, and the hostel facilities encourage interaction.

https://www.jugendherberge.de/en/youth-hostels/cochem/

https://cochem.de/galerie/leisure-centre-cochem/?lang=en

Hi, back again with a few more questions. For Burg Eltz, the castle website gives Hatzenport as the closet train station, and then Bus 365 from there. However, I have seen some posts that indicate people going from Treis Karden. Which is the better jumping off point? And once one arrives at the castle via bus, is there still a steep climb -- one of the persons in our group gets tired waking.

The other question relates to buying a long distance ticket leaving Boppard to go to Gengenbach. Since the portion up to Oberwesel would be covered by the VRM guest card, can one buy the ticket just from Oberwesle forward? If so, what are the mechanics -- can it be done online or only at the train station, if online how does one indicate the free section? And is it even worth it -- does it save much?

Thanks!

Bus 365 leaves from Hatzenport, not Treis-Karden. Staying in Treis-Karden means you catch the train to Hatzenport before catching the bus.

https://www.vrminfo.de/fileadmin/data/pdf/fahrplanbuecher/2024/365.pdf

Bus 365 drops you at the yellow "H" stop; the Burg Eltz shuttle can take you from that point uphill to the castle:

https://burg-eltz.de/en/homepage#ui-id-1

The other question relates to buying a long distance ticket leaving Boppard to go to Gengenbach. Since the portion up to Oberwesel would be covered by the VRM guest card, can one buy the ticket just from Oberwesle forward?

???

My advice was to buy the Day Ticket for Germany for regional trains for this trip (not a ticket for the long-distance trains.) It is one price, no matter how far you travel that day, as long as you ride the regional trains. You can buy it at the station in Boppard before you leave - or the day before for the proper date. Or you can buy it online, or using the DB app. With the Day Ticket, you don't need the VRM Guest ticket that morning to complete this trip - just the DAY Ticket for Germany (Quer durchs Land Ticket in German.)

If you decide instead to purchase a non-refundable saver fare which includes a long-distance (IC, ICE, EC) train for part of the trip... Then you COULD buy the Oberwesel > Gengenbach ticket and use the VRM Guest Ticket for the first part from Boppard > Oberwesel. Remember that the long-distance trains must be used at the exact time stated on your ticket and are non-refundable.
Don't get off the train in Oberwesel - the two tickets cover you without doing that.

Feel free to pm me if you have further questions about this trip.

After studying the timetables it seems the regional trains using the Quer Durchs Land ticket is a good idea for the trip from Boppard to Gengenbach. But we wish to go on to Salzburg from Gengenbach. The best regional train (with a price of 73 euros for 4) leaves at 09:06 and takes 8 1/2 hours with 5 transfers! It seems worth it to spend a little more (112 euros) to take 7:11 am train, which reaches at 12:58 (5 hours 47 minutes) with only 2 transfers. This would be a Super Spare Preis fare. What are the fare rules -- I know we are locked in to the dates, no cancellation/refunds, is there anything else to be aware of? And, how much in advance to do we need to buy this ticket -- does the price go up as we come closer to the departure date, is there an optimal time to buy?

But we wish to go on to Salzburg from Gengenbach.

Salzburg? And apparently you wish to do this on the same day you leave Boppard then, hmm?

It was not remotely in my consciousness that you had such a trip in mind. Thought you'd be staying overnight in Gengenbach after the fairly long train trip from Boppard before attempting the even longer train trip from Gengenbach to Salzburg (which I would not add to the day no matter what trains you use, really.) Staying 1-2 nights there would make a whole lot of sense. But it sounds like you must arrive in Salzburg.

My suggestion: review the route options from Boppard to Salzburg (without Gengenbach) using the saver fare, which includes high-speed trains. And look for somewhere interesting along that route (or near it) approximately mid-way to stop off in instead of Gengenbach.

For example... There's a 7:12 departure from Boppard using an ICE train from Mannheim that stops in ULM in between Mannheim and Munich on the way to Salzburg. Ulm is quite a nice stopover town.

But there are alternative routings for saver fares that travel via Würzburg and Nuremberg to Munich as well. Nice places to visit also.

You will need to use the stopover feature to specify the length of time you'd like to stay in whatever stopover town you pick.

Anyway... if you need further help or suggestions or have more questions, feel free to re-post, along with your exact travel date, desired arrival time in Salzburg, etc.

I am so sorry for not having been more clear. We are spending 3 nights in Gengenbach, then going to Salzburg. What I meant was that the regional trains made sense for the trip to Gengenbach, but not for the trip from Gengenbach to Salzburg, so just wanted to know the rules on the Super Preis. Hope I am moe clear now!

And yes, dates are 20 May Boppard to Gengenbach, 23 May Gengenbach to Salzburg

Gengenbach to Salzburg

10:52 to 16:42. transfers in Karlsruhe and Munich. current price for 4 seniors 140.40 Euro
If just 2 then 87.80

this is for 2nd class. for 1st class. 117.80 for 2, 191.60 for 4

today’s prices www.bahn.de

Thanks Stephen. I hope someone can also help on one of my questions: For a Super Spar Preis fare, What are the fare rules -- I know we are locked in to the dates, no cancellation/refunds, is there anything else to be aware of? And, how much in advance to do we need to buy this ticket -- does the price go up as we come closer to the departure date, is there an optimal time to buy? Is there a date (e.g. 3 days in advance) after which the price is steady? Thanks.

Gengenbach > Salzburg on May 23: currently priced at €99.60/4 adults, €49.80/2 for the 08:53–15:42 train sequence with 3 changes of train.

Saver fares and supersaver fares lock in your date... AND THE SPECIFIC LONG-DISTANCE TRAINS AS SCHEDULED ON YOUR ITINERARY. Here's how it works using the train schedule I just provided. You have 4 travel segments.

Gengenbach > Karlsruhe, 8:53 - 9:49 (RE train)
(change trains)
Karlsruhe > Stuttgart, 10:06 - 10:59 (IRE train)
(change trains)
STUTTGART > MUNICH, 11:28 - 13:26 (ICE train)
(change trains)
Munich > Salzburg, 13:55 - 15:42 (BRB train)

The 3rd train (ICE) in CAPS is the only long-distance train. You must ride that train as scheduled.

The other three trains are regional trains, not long-distance. With saver or supersaver tickets you can ride ANY regional trains at any hour that same day for those routes, regardless of what your itinerary says. What this means on the ground...

• You are not forced to use the 4th train at 13:55... you can ride any other regional train later that day if you wish. (So you could lengthen your stay in Munich to have a nice lunch, for example, and take some later regional train to Salzburg.)

• You are not forced to use the 1st or 2nd trains either... you can ride any other regional trains earlier that same day if you wish. (Using later regional trains, however, would force you to miss the 3rd train, the ICE train, at 11:28. So don't do that! But do read my final comment below.)

Super saver and saver fares should be bought ASAP to obtain the best price. Prices go up as tickets sell. Commit as soon as you are willing to commit. Both are non-refundable.

Final comment: There's an advantage for a schedule like the 8:53 super saver fare I suggested...

If you cannot make the first 8:53 train for some reason... sadly, you will miss the 3rd train (the ICE, the only long-distance train.) HOWEVER, ALL IS NOT LOST. You can still ride on any regional trains you like (which will take longer, as you already know) if you then purchase The Day Ticket for Germany day pass, which can be bought from any ticket machine to cover this 3rd travel segment and the others as well, minimizing your loss to €55/2 or €73/4 (a lot less than buying the flex-fare for the ICE between stuttgart and Munich.)

Got it, that does seem like the best option. We are very good in making sure we are on time. But, what happens if the regional trains are delayed or cancelled such that we miss the ICE train? Is that likely? And if it happens are we just out of luck, have to get a new ticket?

No. The rail system recognizes that you are not responsible for train delays. If a train delay prevents you from making an ICE or other long distance train like the one in my example, then your original ticket is still valid, period. You may then substitute any subsequent ICE train for the missed train to complete your journey.

Regional trains have a significantly better record of on-time performance than long-distance trains actually. But there's no way to know exactly when any train will be tardy, of course.

Thanks, good to know. As you said, the current price is 99.60, any idea how much longer we could wait before the price starts to go up - is it a set formula or just supply/demand?

Ticket prices are capacity-controlled; they go up as capacity declines (as tickets sell, in other words) for that particular ICE train. I can't say whether prices move up a step after 4 tickets are sold, or 40 tickets are sold, or when the critical number will be sold. And I do not know how much they move up from step to step. I only know that if you are comfortable with the non-refundability of a certain € amount, then you should buy them as soon as possible if you wish to make that trip. (Perhaps travel insurance you might have could absorb a loss of some kind if you do have to cancel the journey or your trip.)

Generally speaking, MY approach to these saver tickets is to buy them only when I must, which isn't too often. I much prefer the last-minute purchase of day passes... Länder Tickets (like the Rheinland-Pfalz ticket and the Bayern Ticket) or day passes from local transit authorities (the VRM, the RMV, the VGN, for example) are staple dishes on my travel menu.

I often plan my itineraries so that I don't have such long trips to make - and so that I can use day passes. Using the Gengenbach > Salzburg trip, as an example, rather than 3 nights in Gengenbach, I might travel to an intermediate city like Ulm on the afternoon of my 3rd day (using a Länder Ticket on regional trains) and spend that night there. Then I'd travel to Salzburg on Day 4 on a different Länder Ticket (the Bayern Ticket) by regional train. With these day passes - or with the newer Deutschland-Ticket - I don't have to prepurchase anything months and months in advance, and I can travel at whatever hour I wish, change my mind at will, and lose no money at all if I do change my mind.

Hi, first of all, I second the rec for the Vogtsbauernhof (open-air village) near Gutach. It is a wonder and well worth a visit. There are a couple of restaurants by the train station, and I believe the museum, which is across the road (you will walk under the road to get there) also has a cafe. It makes for a very nice lunch spot.

Also, in terms of accommodations in Cochem, you can look at the town's website, which has multiple listings for Ferienwohnungen (holiday rooms/apartments) and other types of lodging. I used the town websites a lot to find lodging, and the prices are usually very reasonable. https://www.ferienland-cochem.de/en/overnight-stay/search-and-book#/accommodations

Lastly, if you are looking for lodging in Gengenbach, I can recommend the Stadthotel Pfeffermühle, which is right on the outskirts of the city center. The hotel was very pleasant, with very large rooms, pleasant and competent staff, and quiet. The rooms were reasonably priced, and of course, you get the KONUS card when you check in. I very much enjoyed my stay here. http://www.pfeffermuehle-gengenbach.de/

Russ, that's a great idea nd I will relook at our itinerary and see where I can change.

Mardee, thanks for the suggestions. We decided to just make Boppard our base rather than split between Boppard and Cochem -- less checking in/out, free VRM tickets etc. In Genegenbach I am definitely looking at the Stadthotel Pfeffermühle. It seems nice and reasonable, but how far is it from the station? We will be making day trips every day from the station, plus don't want to have to roll our bags to/from for a long distance on our first and last day. The other option we are looking at is Rosen Suites, which seems to be very well situated right in town, but maybe not as nice. Any recommendation between the two? There are also some nice apartments just outside town with the added advantage of bigger rooms, clothes washer, and cheaper, , but again same issue of distance. I assume there are no taxis to/from station? Thanks.

Here is where we stayed last fall. Close to the train station and the altstadt. They might even be able to pick yoiu up at the station.

https://www.gengenbach.info/mittlererschwarzwald/ukv/house/FIT00020070044572271

It seems nice and reasonable, but how far is it from the station?

It's a little under a mile, but not a difficult walk. And there are taxis there--I took one when I first got there so I did not have to deal with navigating. 😊 That said, I'm sure there are other hotels that are closer.

On a different subject, do the regional (and ICE) trains have toilets? I've read that they all supposedly do but are often out of order. How about train stations? Thanks.

The WC on the ICE trains are usually well cared for. Regional trains are usually ok, but yes, they are sometimes out of order. For train stations, small towns often do not have a WC, but if you look up the station it will tell you. St. Goar for example does not have a WC, but Rüdesheim does. These are usually pay Toilets and cost between 50 cents and 1€.

Thanks Ms Jo. Can I assume that the regional trains have connected carriages, such that if the toilet is not working in a carriage one can cross into another one and try there?

No, Regional trains have separate cars. You would need to hop off and go to the next car. Ask the ticket checker if they are working or not, they will know.

No, Regional trains have separate cars. You would need to hop off and
go to the next car.

Regional train design varies widely. Some trains provide access between cars...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHvHQj0tKZs

Some do not...

https://www.chiemgau24.de/bilder/2020/05/15/13764559/756765227-05-15-traun-alz-bahn-data-2uQrnyNvSkf9.jpg

For train stations, small towns often do not have a WC, but if you
look up the station it will tell you.

Here's how you can do that:

https://www.bahnhof.de/en/search

Thanks for this info, very helpful to be able to see the station details.

On May 24, from Genegnbach we are looking at maybe going to Rothenburg rather than to Salzburg. On DB if I choose All Means of Transport I see a train at 08:53 for 79.60, or one at 10:52 for 99.60 Euros. However, if I select Local Transport only (hoping to avoid having to lock in dates/times on ICE) I see fares ranging from 227 to 293 Euros and I don't see a 73 Euro ticket (QDL) until 12:52. I know the QDL is not valid before 9 am on a weekday, but even the trains after 9 am are showing these high prices. What causes this?

The site is routing you automatically via Dombühl near the end of this train journey and using a bus for the final leg from there. The bus is not covered by the QdL Ticket (day pass for Germany.)

If you stick with trains only you will find the QdL ticket. To find it, keep R'burg as your "to" station, but also enter "Steinach b. Rothenburg ob der Tauber" as a STOPOVER station with 00:00 stopover time.

Entering Dombühl as your "to" destination (without the stopover in Steinach!) will also produce the QdL ticket result.

Thanks, Russ. I tried both methods. Entering Steinbach as the stopover does get me the QDL. However, if I enter Dombuhl as the "To" destination, I do get the QDL but the journey ends in Dombuhl, so don't I still need a bus or some other means of getting to Rothenburg?

Yes, You'd pay the bus driver separately for the Dombühl > R'burg bus ticket if you went to Dombühl. I inserted that info only to emphasize that Dombühl > Rothenburg is the issue with turning up the QdL Ticket.

OK, got it. Going via Dombuhl seems to be much faster vs going via Steinach (by 1 hour 20 minutes -- 09:06 departure in both cases), so does the bus really add 220 euros for 4 people for a 40 minute ride (293 euros for the 09:06 from Gengenbach all the way to Rothenburg vs 73 euros for the 09:06 only up to Dombuhl)? Is this a ticketing quirk, is there a cheaper way to do that, will paying the driver be less? I assume one can take carry-on size bags on the bus? Thanks again for your incredible patience in responding to so many questions!.

You have the G'bach > R'burg schedule with change to bus 807 for the last leg to R'burg, right? Don't pay any attention to the inflated price you see.

At the station in Gengenbach on the morning of 5/24, just buy the €73 QdL ticket, either online or from a station ticket machine. I hope I've been clear that this ticket, as the DB site indicates, will get you on any regional trains throughout the country - including trains to Dombühl.

So you rode all those trains and are all in Dombühl now; because your trip to R'burg has now run out of train tracks, you will walk to that bus #807 that is just outside the station (the bus that you are looking at now on your DB train schedule.) You will board the bus, stow the bags wherever the bus driver requests, if he requests, pay the bus driver €5.90 each to ride that bus into Rothenburg, and finish your trip. (I verified the bus ticket cost at the VGN site.) Your total ticket cost, including the €73 train ticket, is now roughly €97 total for 4.

I am not a gigantic fan of touristy Rothenburg or of making a long trip to get there. Going there from Gengenbach was not my suggestion... There are other worthwhile destinations worth your time that are far easier to reach from Gengenbach that do not require this sort of detour. But this is how you will need to do it if Gengenbach > Dombühl > Rothenburg is a must for you and you wish to use the QdL ticket on the regional trains.

I'm confused at this point about where you are going AFTER Rothenburg (or after Salzburg.)

If it's your intent to eventually travel in the direction of Salzburg, Munich, or elsewhere in southern Bavaria...

...you might be interested in substituting the Romantic Road town of Nördlingen for Rothenburg. It's a faster, easier and cheaper train journey from Gengenbach (€73 QdL ticket, no bus needed.) And it's just 2 train hours from Nördlingen to Munich when you leave, a much shorter trip than you would have starting from Rothenburg.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractions-g187318-Activities-oa0-Nordlingen_Swabia_Bavaria.html

Thanks. Yes, I agree Rothenburg does not appear to be an easy journey. We were originally thinking of going to Salzburg from Gengenbach, but that too is complicated. We will leave Gengenbach either on 23 or 24 May, and want to end up in Munich for at least 3 days (4 nights), flying out of Munich on 30 May afternoon (that flight is booked). So that leaves us with 2 or 3 days to see 1 other location after leaving Gengenbach on 23 or 24 before ending up in Munich by the 26th,. What would you suggest -- 2 days in Nordingen? Any other choices, if we have that additional day -- leave Gengenbach on 23 instead of 24? We generally prefer not to spend just 1 night in one location, but a 1-time exception would be OK if it's worth it.

And to give you the full picture, we arrive in Boppard from Frankfurt (flying in from London in the morning) on the 16th May and leave for Gengenbach on the 20th arriving there around 3 PM or so. We would then leave Gengenbach either on 23 or 24 (any thoughts on how long to spend there)?

Will give this some consideration and get back to you...

I don't feel fully informed on your group's set of travel interests, but I think the plan below would please most visitors. And while I generally prefer 2+ nights in one place, 1 night in Stuttgart and 1 in Noerdlingen for this particular journey looks easier/simpler and more predictable to me than 2 nights in one place.

5/23: Final night in Gengenbach

5/24-26: Tour with final destination Munich, train trips as follows...

5/24, Gengenbach > Stuttgart (2 hrs.) (KONUS Karte + €50.50/4 Baden-Württemberg day pass)
5/25, Stuttgart > Noerdlingen (2 hrs.) (€73/4, QdL day pass)
5/26, Noerdlingen > Munich (2 hrs.) (€56/4, Bayern Ticket)

5/24:

• 9-11 am: train to Stuttgart (1 night) for an afternoon at the acclaimed Mercedes-Benz Museum

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g187291-d243381-Reviews-Mercedes_Benz_Museum-Stuttgart_Baden_Wurttemberg.html

(Use the "Neckarpark" station for the M-B Museum.)

• evening in Stuttgart: include a walk around the Schloßgarten (Palace Square) and the Koenigstrasse

5/25:

• 9-11 am: train to Nördlingen (1 night.) Afternoon, evening in town.

I prefer Noerdlingen to Rothenburg - it not only has a wall with "Wehrgang" like Rothenburg and many fine old buildings, but it's also a real town in the sense that it is populated not only by tourists, innkeepers, shopkeepers, and restaurant owners, but also by normal Germans from all walks of life; it's a tourist town on the Romantic Road, but it is not totally dominated by the tourist industry in the way Rothenburg is. Below are some links for an introduction to the town. (The youtube film has some interesting footage of Noerdlingen from the post-war period at the beginning.)

https://www.nuernbergluftbild.de/images/luftbild/N05280344d.jpg
https://www.noerdlingen.de/fileadmin/noerdlingen/prospekte/pdf/Ortsprospekt_Englisch-Franzoesisch_2019.pdf
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Tourism-g187318-Nordlingen_Swabia_Bavaria-Vacations.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i39sXkWGwfc

5/26:

• Morning in Noerdlingen

• Train to Munich using a Bayern Ticket day pass (€56/4)...at 10:21? 12:21? Both are direct train rides of 2 hours; I'd probably use the 12:21 to arrive in Munich closer to check-in time, but you can play it by ear depending on the mood of your group.

Thanks, Russ. I think we'll do this, it seems very good. Regarding the M-B museum, are you recommending we go there straight, to the Neckarpark station (without checking into a hotel)? Would we be able to keep our luggage there? I believe Stuttgart is quite big, any suggestions or where would be the best location for a hotel?

Also, how do we combine the Konus Karte with the Baden-Württemberg day pass? Does that day pass allow travel on S-Bahn and other local transport within Stuttgart? Thanks.

I was looking at 8:53 > 10:59 (RE train + IRE train) for the trip to Stuttgart Hbf.

Stuttgart Hotel: it will be a simpler train trip to Noerdlingen (9:20 - 11:13 the following morning) if you stay near the Hbf. Staying there will also place you close to the walk I suggested. I don't have any hotel suggestions in this area, have never stayed right there, but based on previous visits in Stuttgart, it's an area that's busy but safe and convenient, and there seem to be numerous hotel options with positive reviews. You will likely find something that suits you once you have a look. Perhaps others can weigh in.

You must get off at Stuttgart Hbf; change trains there to reach Neckarpark (7-min. train ride.) There are no lockers at the Neckarpart station AFAIK. You can either deposit bags in a Hbf station locker and catch the next train to Neckarpark, or - as long as your hotel is close by - drop bags at your hotel near the Hbf, then return for the next train to Neckarpark.

The Konus Karte does not cover the whole trip to Stuttgart, but you need it to board the 8:53 train, as the B-W ticket/day pass is not valid until 9 am on weekdays. The B-W ticket covers the uncovered portion of your trip into Stuttgart Hbf, to Neckarpark, and back to Hbf again as well.

We came back last week after a lovely 2 week trip through southern Germany. Thanks to Russ and all the other on this forum for taking the time to provide valuable, practical advice.

I have done a write-up on our trip, including the itinerary, observations, and tips. If anyone is interest I can post it here -- it's quite long, 2 typed up pages.

Sounds like an interesting read to me. For wider readership you might post it on the trip-reports forum:

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports

Glad to hear you enjoyed yourselves.

I agree with Russ. We would love to hear how your trip went. And I also agree that you will get more viewers if you post it in the Trip Reports forum.

Thanks, just posted there. Had to break it into 3 separate posts.

Rather a dry write-up, nothing lyrical!