Itinerary review? Loop through southern Germany (Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria)

Day 2: Day cruise on Rhine (Bingen to Boppard?), overnight in
Bacharach or St. Goar (suggestions welcome for which part of the Rhine
to sail on, which town to stay in, etc.) -- this is also the part of
the overall trip that could easily be cut

Having been everywhere you're going --- which is not unique for forum members here btw ---

1) The Rhine stay should be enhanced by at least a couple of days. Take the train straight there from FRA after your flight (a 1-hr. ride) and add stay a 3rd day as well. Cruise Bingen > St. Goar. It's not only about the cruise. Tour Marksburg Castle or Burg Eltz (these are real castles, not fake ones built in the late 19th century.) Rheinfels Castle Ruins in St. Goar is good too - you can tour it after your cruise. Take one of the chairlift rides (Boppard, Cochem, Assmannshausen.) Check out the pretty old world towns of Bacharach and Oberwesel. Stay in Boppard and your local train rides to most of these places will be free thanks to the VRM guest Ticket.

2) IF cuts are needed, I'd look at Baden-Baden, Freiburg, and Neuschwanstein as circular-file options. Maybe in BW keep Heidelberg, some of the Black Forest destinations like the Vogtsbauernhof, and keep Europapark, then scoot into Bavaria. Might a place like this interest you?

3) Salzburg: an important and interesting city, with interesting stuff on the outskirts. Enhance to 3 nights if possible to visit WERFEN area attractions (Hohenwerfen + Falconry show and Eisriesenwelt) ; from Salzburg day trip to the Koenigssee, Berchtesgaden, and take the Jennerbahn lift. A day trip to Salzburg alone is dismissive, not quite a criminal act, but I'd vote to make it one.

4) Munich: not a good mix with the car. Stay outside, maybe in one of the Romantic Road towns like Landsberg am Lech or Augsburg. Take a day trip (take the train in) into Munich from your RR town for what you want to see there. Also day trip from there to Mittenwald and elsewhere.

Europa Park (seems to offer enough culture to make it worth a visit, and also fun for the kid)

if you want to stay nearby but not at the park there is a quite decent Holiday Inn Express just outside at the junction with the Autobahn. I've used it several times, but never been inside the park.

There are way more spas (thermae) throughout Germany. You don't have to limit yourself to just the Baden Baden one. They have similarities but all are different. I like palm trees

Russ and I are of a single mind about taking a car into Munich.

I agree that you should reduce the number of overnights in Munich and add at least one or preferably two nights to Salzburg. It's worth much more than a day trip and I think your child (how old?) would love it. Munich is fun and lovely but you can see pretty much everything there in a couple of days.

As much as I love the Rhine area, you are right that it would be easy to cut. And you might be better off spending extra time in your other destinations. I love boats and rivers so I really enjoyed my 3 night stay there (and I do recommend seeing Burg Eltz if you are there - truly a spectator castle). It is closed in the winter, though - when do you plan to travel?

I second both Russ and Nigel's warning to avoid driving in Munich. I have done it, and do NOT recommend it. I was about ready to tear my hair out at the end.

Normally I would suggest staying in Gengenbach, but your kid might enjoy a larger city like Freiburg. That said, Gengenbach is absolutely charming with very good restaurants and lovely scenery. I stayed for 4 nights and could easily have stayed longer. If you stay there, you could easily park your car for a few days and make use of the free KONUS pass to utilize the Schwarzwaldbahn (Black Forest Railroad) throughout the Black Forest area. It has some of the most breathtaking scenery in Germany and goes to many small charming villages throughout the Black Forest. I think that is something a child would really enjoy.
https://www.blackforestgermany.com/train.php
https://www.black-forest-travel.com/places-of-interest/black-forest-railway.html

The free teansportation tickets don’t mean much for the few days that they would apply since you will have a car.

You are doing a lot, but that’s o.k. I would rather ( and have ) spend more time on the Rhine - doing another 6 days this year. I would skip Heidelberg or just do a half day there to see the castle. If the spa is a must, then Baden-Baden is fine. You might want to take the funicular up the Merkur. I think a stay in Gengenbach would be good. The Voghtsbauernhof open air museum is excellent and just a hundred yards or so away is a fun alpine coaster. Lots of fun, inexpensive and has not been crowded the times I have been there. If you do stay there in Gengenbach, try to see the Narren Museum if it is open. It shows all the grotesque masks that are worn on their Mardi Gras ( Fastnacht ). An 11 yr old should really like it.

Be sure to make reservations well in advance for Neuschwanstein. I would rather skip Munich and spend those days in Salzburg. Do a salt mine tour and the Werfen Ice Cave. I don’t know if there is enough time to do Nuremberg and do Rothenburg justice. I’d just go to Rothenburg ( 4 more nights this fall ! )

Have fun !

The free teansportation tickets don’t mean much for the few days that they would apply since you will have a car.

I agree, Steven - I mentioned it, though, seeing as how they have a kid and most kids like train rides (depending on the age). I just thought it would a fun outing for the family to take the Schwarzwaldbahn through some of the quaint towns in the BF. The route has some really cool scenery along it.

Thanks for the tips so far! Some follow-up questions:

• Rental car: We wouldn't intend to drive in Munich, but rather find some outskirts parking option (parking location suggestions welcome). I thought about renting one-way FRA-MUC, giving up the car while in Munich, then renting one-way again MUC-FRA, but that seems more costly (from my initial car research) than just having a car for the entire trip. But other recommendations on this topic are most welcome.

• Munich: Interesting to hear recommendations for less time in Munich and more in Salzburg. I mean, the latter is not surprising, but less time in Munich? Seems like a popular place. But sounds like some of you would recommend it lower compared to the other options?

• Salzburg side trips: Russ, thanks for the tips about Hohenwerfen and Eisriesenwelt; those both look fantastic! How “must do” would you rate Eisriesenwelt? And would we need heavy coats? Since we’ll be traveling in summer, we don’t want to bring heavy clothing just for one activity. Also: Eagle’s Nest as another side trip, worthwhile? Looks like Dokumentation Obersalzberg is closed till the fall.

• Clockwise or counter-clockwise? The itinerary I shared above is a loop that seems a fairly common way to tour these parts of southern Germany. My route above goes counter-clockwise; are there any pros/cons to that way vs. clockwise? By way of example, I’m enclosing a clockwise itinerary (note that I updated it to remove the Rhine portion and add time to Salzburg, per your suggestions; seems better to save the Rhine for a future trip instead of trying to do too much).

Day 1: Arrive Frankfurt, spend night

Day 2: Frankfurt to Rothenburg odT (spend night)

Day 3: Nürnburg (spend night)
- or consider staying 2 nights in one and visiting the other as a day trip?

Day 4: Drive to Munich (2 nights total)

Day 5: Munich

Day 6: Drive to Salzburg (3 nights total)

Day 7: Salzburg (see the town)

Day 8: Salzburg (side trips like Burg Hohenwerfen)

Day 9: Drive to Mittenwald (spend night; stop at Eagle’s Nest on the way?)

Day 10: Drive to Füssen (spend night; Hohenschwangau and Neuschwanstein castles, etc.)

Day 11: Full-day drive to Black Forest (2 nights total, Freiburg or Staufen?)

Day 12: Europa Park

Day 13: Explore Black Forest (Highlands Drive, Black Forest Open Air Museum, Lothar Trail, High Road Driving Tour; 2 nights in Baden-Baden)

Day 14: Caracalla Spa and explore Baden-Baden

Day 14: Back to Frankfurt, return rental car, spend night

Day 15: Fly home

It hadn't registered with me that you were considering both Munich and Salzburg. I absolutely LOVE Salzburg (others don't I do) but from personal experience I can tell you that a car in Salzburg is as welcome as the elderly male relative at a Christmas party telling off colour jokes (see how I sanitized that?).

Parking in Salzburg costs an absolute fortune. Even under the mountain. Even with an Altstadt validation. If you aren't staying way our on Moosstraße it will eat your lunch.

Looking at the revised itin. I would suggest that a car isn't needed until day 8. An easy ride just across the border to Freilassing will allow you to rent a car that can be returned in Frankfurt without penalty and being from Freilassing it may even have an Austrian Vignette (don't forget the Vignette). That would save money and remove the albatross from your neck in the cities.

You may have a perfectly valid reason for wanting or needing a car - I don't knock it in that case, but if you are only following the American habit of car, car, car, plane and not really considering the train I commend a few minutes' contemplation to you...

You don’t need a heavy coat for the ice cave but I would wear a long sleeve shirt and whatever light coat you have, also a pair of gloves and a hat/beanie to keep your head/ears warm

Hi, Mike. Before you set this little itinerary monster in stone... here's some general and frank feedback from my personal perspective on your revised itin. with apologies for ignoring your specific questions.

1) Too much driving for 2 weeks. The back seat really isn't that much fun, and to be a good driver in unfamiliar territory, the extended driving task-load and requisite level of attention and caution will result in "distracted interaction" with your family members. By adding a little train, you'd reduce the car issues in Munich and Nürnberg (not Nürnburg, btw.) but you'd also have a better time with your loved ones, whether you're just enjoying the views out the window together, having a mini-picnic in the train, or discussing your trip experiences. Or have an adult beverage on the way... some trains serve beer and wine, but on those without beverage service, you can still enjoy a bottle of whatever local brew you bring along.

2) Too many different overnight stops - 10 of them over 14 days - meaning too many repeated "unload, check-in, unpack, pack up, check out, reload" scenarios. If instead you could manage 3-4 locations of 3-4 nights each (and do day outings from those) you might...

• save yourselves some unpaid labor...

• reduce the odds you'll leave something of value to you behind...

• get to know your surroundings more thoroughly and feel slightly more like a temporary resident than a fly-by tourist - which might yield a different perspective writing up your experiences...

• get a better deal on accommodations.

3) Your choices appear based on what's "popular" or "common" or on what Rick Steves recommends. But the whole world has already heard enough about Hitler, Rothenburg, and Neuschwanstein. As a writer and photographer, you may want to select a few places and things that really stand out, stuff that is... a) off the well-worn tourist trail, and... b) of unique personal interest to you or your family members. Not sure what those things might be... but here are some suggestions for input beyond the RS guidebook with ideas I hope will inspire one or two additions to (and possibly a few subtractions from) your itinerary.

• UNESCO World Heritage sites in Germany: There's got to be 2 or 3 things here that tug at your shirtsleeve...
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Germany (4 of these - Bamberg, Regensburg, Würzburg's Residenz, and Bayreuth's opera house - are located within the travel sphere of Nuremberg. Note also that the Rhine Valley is listed, but that Neuschwanstein, Hohenschwangau, and Rothenburg haven't made the cut.)

• The Bergstrasse route (roughly between Heidelberg and Frankfurt)

• The German Half-Timbered town Route in Franconia Ochsenfurt, Marktbreit, and Bad Windsheim are all within this part Franconia. Each is accessible by train, btw, as is Wü

Your FRA > Rothenburg > Munich hustle is skipping past a whole lotta very nice places.

Adding some train: Best place to do this for you might be at the beginning. Train to Rothenburg and/or train to Nürnberg (add 3-4 nights in Nürnberg for day trips by train?) Same for getting to Munich. Take the train there and don't pick up the car until you are ready to leave...

Drive the rest, I guess... but unless that southwest corner is critical to a good trip, I'd give consideration to shaving it off, thus subtracting some nights there and reducing or eliminating all that driving around you have in mind for Freiburg, Black Forest, Baden-Baden...etc.... After Mittenwald you might head toward Frankfurt - or the Rhine first if you have 1-2 days left - but drive via Günzburg (take the family to Legoland Deutschland instead of Europapark?) then via Heidelberg (and maybe the Bergstrasse on the way.)

Just saw Nigel's note and I agree with the idea of Munich > Freilassing by train to pick up the car. I'd have suggested the same if I'd had my head together today.

Taking one more stab at this... I think I'm close to calling it final. Russ, you have good advice (not just here; I see your posts all over multiple travel forums), but for our travel goals for this trip and overall travel style, we're going by the "popular places are popular for a reason" logic. This is our first trip to Germany, so it seems logical to hit the big, obvious sights, and then explore more off the beaten track if/when we return.

I've tried to avoid one-night stops for the most part. And we've done two-night stays on past trips successfully, so I think this would strike the right balance between trying to see as much as possible vs. being too rushed. (your mileage may vary)

This is pretty dialed in for our preferences, but if any of you see obvious flaws in this plan, please let me know. As always, I appreciate all feedback.

• Arrive Frankfurt, proceed directly to Rhineland (town TBD, possibly St. Goar or Bingen) – 2 nights town TBD
• Return to Frankfurt to pick up rental car, drive RR to Rothenburg odT – 1 night RodT
• Drive part of RR from RodT to Munich – 2 nights Munich
• Drive to Salzburg – 3 nights Salzburg
• Drive from Salzburg to Füssen, stop in Mittenwald on the way (lunch, a few hours to sightsee; optional stop) – 2 nights Füssen
• Scenic, full-day drive from Füssen to Freiberg im Breisgau/Black Forest – 2 nights Freiburg
• Black Forest "High Road Driving Tour" up to Baden-Baden – 1-2 nights Baden-Baden
• Return to Frankfurt, drop off rental car – 1-2 nights Frankfurt [3 nights total between B-B and Frankfurt, however we decide to split them]
• Fly home

We can save some money, driving and Munich parking by taking train for the above itinerary until we're done in Munich, and then get a car for the Salzburg-and-onward portion. But how much of the Romantic Road would we miss?

And I understand the perennial debate between trains and rental car. We're big fans of using trains, and haven't gotten a rental car on a Europe trip since Scotland in 2018. But for our goals, I believe a car will suit us best. Including Salzburg, where we plan to do some side trips to Burg Hohenwerfen (Russ recommendation!) and Eagle's Nest.

Speaking of Salzburg, Rick's guidebook says that one can utilize the Alpensiedlung park-and-ride lot and catch the bus into town for just €6/24 hrs (or €15 combo-ticket that covers 24 hrs parking plus 24-hr group transit pass). Does this sound accurate?

Thanks all!

On your drive from Frankfurt to Rothenburg, consider the route thru the Odenwald : Frankfurt - Bensheim -
lindenfels - Michelstadt - Amorbach - Miltenberg - Wertheim - Tauberbischofsheim - Bad Mergentheim - Creglingen - Rothenburg

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/san-diego-to-munich-just-getting-there-part-1

Perhaps my 2022 Trip Report detailing our recent Germany visit may offer some helpful ideas for activities. I understand that your itinerary is close to being finalized, but based on my previous experience, pls consider skipping Fussen. Hot, crowds, lines, lots of work seeing the Palaces, and just not that great. I think folks go because of the Disney-thing, and FOMO. (You can do a Search here and review others' comments on the experience.)

I'm glad you're staying in Salzburg, which I find magical; Munich, I do not. And Salzburg has a great beer hall. The beauty of Berchtesgaden is memorable: a boat ride on a serene lake, blue-green glacier waters, with the Alps surrounding. I want to go back already!

Rothenburg is one of my favorite villages: walk the town walls, follow the Night Watchman, climb to the top of Town Hall for a panoramic view of the area.

Have a great trip and safe travels !

Mike: My suggestions weren't meant to deter you from hitting "major sites" (however you define those) or to send you to all those other UNESCO WH sites and other places I might have mentioned... but to consider adding "a few places and things" (my words) for some minor exploration off the beaten path during your two-week visit. Rick Steves actually gets credit for this approach to trip planning, the idea being, as he puts it, to "experience a part of Europe that most travelers miss." I think he explains the concept pretty well here:

Finding ‘Back Doors’ in Today’s Europe

"...if any of you see obvious flaws in this plan, please let me know."

One man's fine is another man's flaw of course. Personally, I would neither spend nor recommend spending 3-4 nights in Freiburg or in Baden-Baden if it's one's intent to experience/understand/appreciate the Black Forest. Both places are largely disconnected from and unrepresentative of the region. Most of your destinations are either decidedly urban or hyper-crowded with fellow tourists. And that's fine if it's fine with you. But the BF offers you a shot at a different experience. There are many country inns, farms, hotels and apartment rentals in scenic places that will put you closer to local life and local culture. It's a good place to find a "back door." For Europapark, you might find it more convenient to spend one night close to the park.

In the Black Forest you might consider staying in a Bauernhof - a farm stay. That would be a real treat for your child. One that was highly recommended by Bavaria Ben ( a former traveler with a great website that both Russ and I had contributed to ) is the Rotbauernhof in Gutach. It is right next to the open air museum, the Vogtsbauernhof, and an alpine coaster.

Bavaria Ben's site was a great source of inspiration and specific information for me as well. Ben kept volumes of reviews and trip reports written up by his traveling friends and acquaintances over the years, some of whom went with him on small-group trips to Bavaria, the Black Forest, and other places in rural southern Germany. Farm accommodations were a major focus. Ben's dated review page on the Rotbauernhof in Gutach, stephen's thoughtful follow-up suggestion for the Black Forest, is still available for viewing HERE. (Specifics like price are of course are outdated... check other sources.) Have a look at Ben's main page and at his list of BF accommodations as well (some links may no longer be operational) to get an idea

In the G-A-S copy I own, Rick mentions the Vogtsbauernhof open-air museum as a footnote at the end of his BF chapter (with just a one star rating) with no nearby accommodations listings or even a whisper of the alpine coaster (or summer bobsled run - Sommerrodelbahn.) He provides rec's for sleeping and sightseeing for Baden-Baden, Freiburg and Staufen, and a few details for stopovers along his two recommended drives. That's it. Two BF cities and one smaller BF town. But the Black Forest usurps roughly 2,300 square miles of southern Germany. And tucked away here and there are moated castles and castle ruins, monasteries, breweries, old walled towns, several stunning half-timbered town centers, hundreds of farmers with rooms and apartments for rent, the mountain spring where the Danube River begins, a former Nazi-run work-camp, hundreds of great trails (including parts of the "Camino" = "Jakobsweg" = St. James Way) with numerous lookout towers and trailside inns for walkers/hikers, and more.

IMO the Black Forest is an ideal region for finding one's own "back doors." But you have to consult sources other than Rick's to find out about the essentials of visiting the real BF - including info on the transportation options. Getting around on the extensive train network and using local buses in the BF is not only possible but in most situations quite easy - and often free of charge as well.

I think a night in Mittenwald is warrantied. The village is nice, but for me the Falls and Lakes are the highlights.

We are doing the Norrhern half of the Romantic Road we have already done the southern half.
Starting Wurzburg and spending one night there. Where do you suggest we stay after Wurzburg?
Allowing two or Three nights more.

Please read this thread:

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/germany/romantic-road-between-wurzburg-and-rothenburg