Itinerary help

Technically it is possible, but the amount of travel compared to the actual experience is quite high. Because of that, your time in each place will likely feel too rushed; imo not much worth the money to create long-term memories. In Germany and most parts of Europe visits at destinations need more time because we have tons of layers of history and cultures. Berlin normally needs 4-5 days plus Potsdam.

Day 5 means backtracking - not meaningful.

I suggest to share some interests which allows forum to help you.

You picked my 3 favorite areas of Germany to visit, Berlin, Bavaria and the Rhine Valley.

HOWEVER, you only have 8 days of touring and you don't have enough time to take in the sites for all three areas.

I suggest that you reduce your sites to visit to ONE or TWO areas. In fact, just pick one and do the others when you return to spend more time.

Hi, ndkellyann, I agree with geovagriffith in that 8 days is really not enough time for all you want to see. You mentioned your interests and said you are "...not foodies or art enthusiasts so restaurants and museums not as important." It sounds like you are looking for the iconic Germany, so here are two possible itineraries that should work for you.

Option 1: Fly into Frankfurt then head to one of the small towns on the Rhine (like Boppard) and spend several days there, taking a cruise on the river, and seeing some of the castles like Burg Eltz and Marksburg. Then take the train down to Munich and spend the rest of your time there (maybe 5 days) taking day trips to Salzburg, Eagles Next, etc. At the end, fly home from Munich. It's easy to book these multi-city flights and they are usually no more expensive than a round trip ticket. Plus you save money AND time by not having to retrace your steps back to your originating city.

Option 2: Fly into Frankfurt then head to the Black Forest, spending several (3?) days in one of the scenic towns there (I would suggest Gengenbach, which is really lovely with its half-timbered houses, scenic areas all around, and is right on the train line so it makes it easy to explore the area. Plus you get a KONUS card if you are staying in that area, which entitles you to free public transportation. After that, take the train to Munich and continue with Option 1.

That would take up your 8-9 days, and show you much of traditional Germany. I love Berlin but it is farther north and more of a modern city. Don't get me wrong—it's a wonderful city, but given that this is your first trip and you want to see some culture, I think you will see more of the iconic traditional Germany in options 1 or 2. :-)

Some further details from you would be helpful.

Your family is how many people? 3 sons and...? (This matters a lot when it comes to accommodations and train recommendations.)

And the 3 want to see "some historical sites, pub life, enjoying some culture. They want to see as much as the country as possible in a short time."

What do do the other travelers want?

As others have said, the pacing is way too fast. You need twice as much time for an itinerary like that when traveling independently - actually, you are attempting as much ground travel as a Rick Steves bus tour might in 2 weeks.

If it's just 8 days... then you should probably attempt no more than two base-town locations. From your two base towns, do half-day or day outings to places that will add some variety to your trip. If instead you try to circumnavigate this large country, you will see little but train interiors and random views out the windows. You need to have your feet on the ground to enjoy the things your sons have in mind.

Examples for you:

• Rhine (Boppard is a good pick, hats off to Mardee) + Berlin. Fly into FRA, out of BER.

2 basic train trips: FRA > Boppard, Boppard > Berlin

• Rhine + Munich. Fly into FRA, out of MUC

2 basic train trips: FRA > Boppard, Boppard > Munich

Both of the above would be feasible in the time you have and provide an experience that includes both small, old-world towns (Rhine) and modern German cities (Berlin or Munich.) And you can supplement your two stays with an outing or two by train to other places of interest.

I did not use the Black Forest since you have only one night there and to some degree it will provide a similar experience to the Rhine. The Rhine, btw, is not connected to Heidelberg... the Rhine Valley (a UNESCO World Heritage site) is much more than the just Rhine Cruise. Think medieval castles, wineries, half-timbered villages, steep cliffsides with chairlift options, biking, etc. (MARKSBURG CASTLE in Braubach has overlooked 8 centuries of European history - an entirely intact medieval castle.)

The first link below includes a map of the Upper Middle Rhine Valley (Koblenz > Bingen) which should be the main focus of your stay. Train lines, cruise docks, ferry crossings, trail, castle, and town information is available here. The 2nd link is more like an encyclopedia on the entire scenic section between Bonn in the north and Bingen in the south; The 3rd and 4th links cover a popular WW II site is at the location of the struggle for the Remagen Bridge across the Rhine - the small museum there does a good job. (Have a look at the 60's movie THE BRIDGE AT REMAGEN with Ben Gazzara, George Segal and Robert Vaughn prior to your trip.) This could be a good outing for you if you stay in Boppard (which by the way also has a special free-train-travel card for outings - the VRM Guest Ticket,) which comes with every booking in Boppard.

http://www.loreley-info.com/eng/rhein-rhine/walking-hiking.php

https://www.mittelrheinentdecken.de/en/

https://www.mittelrheinentdecken.de/en/villages-towns-and-cities/remagen/

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g642105-d2165317-Reviews-Peace_Museum_Bridge_at_Remagen-Remagen_Rhineland_Palatinate.html

It is NOT always simple to find accommodations for families (apartments, rental homes) that are suitable to your needs in the locations you want them and also near a train station for your basic train journeys and your outings. Start on that well in advance.

Thank you so much for the insights! Being able to read your recommendations was so helpful in getting my three overly-ambitious sons to adjust their expectations on what can be done in 8-9 days. Since mom is planning the trip and my #1 wish list is to see the Neusch. Castle, I think the option of Frankfurt and Munich (skipping Berlin) is the way to go. Of course, each person on the trip has a different #1 wish to see- and I would love to make sure each boy gets to see their #1 choice. Here's the 5 sites if anyone could work their magic to fit them in - Neusch. Castle, any part of the Black Forest, the Eagle's Nest, any concentration camp, and a Rhine River cruise. Thank you for the recommendations of plotting out the train times too! Just in the preliminary stages but this has been so helpful and I am getting excited even though it is a year out!

Consider taking The Romantic Road, if you rent a car traveling from Frankfurt to Munich.
https://www.romanticroadgermany.com

Here's the 5 sites if anyone could work their magic to fit them in -
Neusch. Castle, any part of the Black Forest, the Eagle's Nest, any
concentration camp, and a Rhine River cruise.

I am curious to see what others will suggest. Only the concentration camp is convenient as a day trip from Munich, and that's not an outing I recommend. Maybe you shouldn't be staying in Munich at all? I think I will sit this one out as it's just not the sort of itinerary that I want to help build. Best wishes for a nice trip.

Hi, I really do think you’re being overly ambitious there. Definitely you could visit Dachau from Munich as a day trip. And that concentration camp is certainly worth visiting.

Since Neuschwanstein Castle seems to be highest on your list, it is doable as a day trip, but it would be a very long day trip from Munich. It’s a three hour ride there using public transport, or you could rent a car in which case it would take two hours each way. So you will have to consider whether you want to see it enough to spend 5 to 6 hours either in a car or train/bus to get there and back.

I would leave off Eagles Nest, as that’s just too much for the time you have, and you definitely won’t be able to make it up to both the Rhine and the Black Forest. I empathize with you wanting to see a lot, but with only eight days you are extremely limited. If you really want to see these places, then I would tack on another 5-7 days.

Or, as Russ suggested, just leave Munich out and focus on the Black Forest and the Rhine. But in that case, it makes no sense to head over to Neuschwanstein castle, or Dachau.

I really would sit down with a map of Germany, circle all the places you want to visit on there, then count the number of days that you have, and figure out what you can see, keeping in mind that you will probably need to spend at least a half day or more for travel time to and from each destination.

Hi, ndkelllyann, after some thought, I put together a new proposed itinerary that you may want to look at and see if something like that would work for you. It still would be a lot of rushing around, but it does get you to all your #1 places, as stated below.

Since mom is planning the trip and my #1 wish list is to see the Neusch. Castle, I think the option of Frankfurt and Munich (skipping Berlin) is the way to go. Here's the 5 sites if anyone could work their magic to fit them in - Neusch. Castle, any part of the Black Forest, the Eagle's Nest, any concentration camp, and a Rhine River cruise.

So below is a proposed itinerary that is not ideal as you would spend a lot of time either driving or on the train (or both), but it does allow you to see your 5 #1 spots. :-)

Day 1: Fly into Munich. Explore Munich. Sleep in Munich.
Day 2: Explore Munich. Day trip to Dachau (30 minute train ride). Sleep in Munich.
Day 3: Take the train to Salzburg (2 hour train ride). Sleep in Salzburg.
Day 4: Explore Salzburg. Day trip via bus to Eagle's Nest at Berchtesgaden (50 minute ride). Sleep in Salzburg.
Day 5: Train to Black Forest (my suggestion would be Gengenbach; about a 6+ hour train ride). Triberg would be over 7 hours away. Sleep in Gengenbach.
Day 6: Explore Black Forest. Sleep in Gengenbach.
Day 7: Train to Rhine River (suggest Boppard as base). Explore Rhine River area. Sleep in Boppard.
Day 8: Explore Rhine River area. Sleep in Boppard.
Day 9: Travel to Frankfurt. Fly home.

Some caveats above. I put a few of my suggestions in there for Gengenbach and Boppard, but obviously you can stay where you like. I loved both of those, though and found them to be good bases for the area. If you stay in Boppard, you can take the train down to Bingen and then get one of the KD ferries there and cruise back to Boppard, with beautiful views of all the castles and ruins along the sides. There are also some lovely castles to visit in the area, like Burg Eltz and Marksburg.

The one issue would be flying home. If your flight is early, it would be better to travel back to Frankfurt on Day 8 and sleep there near the airport. However, if it is later in the afternoon, you could catch the train (2 hours) early in the morning. Or schedule your flight for the 10th day, which gives you some wiggle room there.

All of the times above are ballpark and certainly could change but it's a very approximate estimation of what you would find. Let me know if you have any questions.

I think there is a way to work in the top 5:

Day 1 -- Land Munich, wander Munich
Day 2 -- Day trip Dachau, wander Munich more
Day 3 -- Day trip Neuschwanstein
Day 4 -- Day trip to Berchtesgaden & Eagle's Nest
Day 5 -- Munich to Gengenbach (3.75 - 4 hr train ride), wander Gengenbach
Day 6 -- Go deeper into Black Forest on day trip, sleep Gengenbach
Day 7 -- Gengenbach to Rüdesheim or Boppard (3.5 - 4.5 hour train trip with multiple connections)
Day 8 -- Rhein Cruise + more time on Rhein
Day 9 -- Fly out of Frankfurt

It's a fair amount of train time, but if it's your (and your family's) heart's desire, go for it.

I don't know who had the Eagle's Nest as number one, but that person is going to be disappointed. Most people think they are going to see the Berghof, the terrace where all the footage of Hitler and Eva Braun was taken. They aren't. The Berghof was destroyed at the end of WWII. The Eagle's Nest is just a house turned into a restaurant. The scenery is stunning, but it is also stunning at Neuschwanstein.

I am not saying don't go--if it's someone's number one, then sure, go. But make sure you read up on what you think you'll see and what you'll actually see.

I understand time/money/logistics, but this is such a narrow slice of Germany. Sorry but WWII sites and concentration camps would be at the bottom of my list unless I have a connection. With 9 days I would pick a city or two, then enjoy some nature and get some local feel and culture.

Determine what you really MUST SEE and plan around those places.

I have no desire to see Dachau. I know what went on there. My father’s business partner helped liberate the camp and took photos which are so horrific that he has never shown them to anyone.

If the Eagles Nest was what it was when Hitler was there, I would probably want to visit, but as mentioned above, it was destroyed. I did see some of its silverware, curtesy of a high school classmate’s father who ‘liberated’ it !

Thank you so much for all your suggestions! Dave and Marlee, I really appreciate those sample itineraries. My gang loves the idea of Salzburg so I think that is the direction we are going to explore. We are thinking about just focusing on the Munich/Bavaria area so as to not be constantly on trains! I know I will be back with more questions- thanks for your patience with this newbie traveler!

Removing the Black Forest from Dave's itinerary will give you a tidy schedule with two base locations.

The train trip between Munich and Frankfurt airport is about 3.5 hours, no changes. It's a bit further on a commuter train to the Middle Rhine (if scenic half-timbered villages and authentic medieval castles are of interest). If you book an open jaw flight and depart Germany from Frankfurt, this is a full but not oppressive schedule.

You won't have a lot of time to immerse in any one locale, but you should come away with a nice overview of two different regions with very different character. While I like Heidelberg, I'd resist the temptation to try to fit this in as well unless you cut Salzburg. They have enough similarities to omit one or the other from an 8-day trip.

Staying only in and around Munich is not a bad impulse, but if a diversity of experiences is a top priority, this can still be done with the time you have. I'd recommend 5 nights around Munich, 3 for the Middle Rhine. Your target sights near Munich requires more travel. The Middle Rhine is relatively more compact.

any part of the Black Forest

I suggest seeking some clarity on what, exactly you want to see in the Black Forest. From a travel and logistics perspective this stop really eats into your time in Germany.

My gang loves the idea of Salzburg so I think that is the direction we
are going to explore. We are thinking about just focusing on the
Munich/Bavaria area so as to not be constantly on trains!

I think that's a good idea -- it will make your vacation much more enjoyable. My advice is fly into Munich and then take the train straight to Salzburg. You will be a bit tired anyway, so why not knock out the train ride while tired? The Salzburg Festival is a classical music, opera, and drama festival that runs from mid July to the end of August. Hotel prices are quite a bit higher during that time, so you may want to aim for June or early July for your trip.

There are many, many things to do in and around Salzburg. The city itself is fun to explore.

Eisriesenwelt, the ice cave at Werfen, is really cool and would appeal, I think, to young men in their early 20's. The college kids from the U of Minnesota I met while there were really excited about it.

I think Eagle's Nest is quite cool -- I had no expectation that it was the Berghof. Great views from it -- just avoid a rainy day because fog/clouds will block the view.

I'm outdoorsy. One of my very favorite things to do in the area is to go to Königssee (big lake at Berchtesgaden), take the boat across the lake to the Salet stop, take the short walk to Obersee (a gorgeous smaller lake), then hike along the right side of Obersee to its far side, ascend a bit to a gorgeous alpine meadow surrounded by peaks, and then continue on to Röthbach Waterfall at the far end of the meadow. Then head back, stopping at the snack hut at the bottom of the ascent to the alpine meadow. The ascent and the alpine meadow are shared with cows grazing in the highlands for the summer. It's a fairly easy hike with a big pay off.

The forum has at least a few Munich/Salzburg trip reports from the last few years.

Hi we did Eagles Nest and loved it. We did it on our own. Unfortunately it was quite cloudy so the view was not clear. Very cool to be able to look and see both Germany & Austria. You also can get a tour right in Salzburg. However I do believe that Eagle's Nest is only open April-October, so make sure you check that. We spent 5 days in Munich and did all day/train trips. Dachau concentration camp is about 25 minute train ride. The town is lovely for lunch and wandering. The concentration camp was a emotional experience, but so very worth it. It is smaller that some, definitly go with a guide. I totally recommend it. We have don Terezin also much larger also amazing if you are into all that history. I am going back in Sept & will do Nurembourg as a day trip from Munich. Munich has so much history Allow yourself time to expience it also. Another day trip we did, about and 1.15 minutes was from Munich to Garmish. The views were incredible, we also went up the Zugspitze, had lunch on an amazing terrace at Eibsee Lake. I could go on and on. We truly love Germany!