Itinerary for 5 weeks in Germany, Czech Rep., Switzerland and France

In general, just about everything feels rushed to me, but different interests and travel styles and all. (I have zero interest in castles and chateaus but love many museums and historic architecture.)

I like Bern, but don't you want to stay up in the mountains? Switzerland is so painfully expensive; I wouldn't go there just to stay in Bern and around Lake Geneva.

I assume you plan to rent a car for Normandy and Brittany; otherwise, I don't think you'll make a lot of progress in the limited time you have available. There's a lot of interest in Normandy alone.

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am planning on renting in Normandy. Forgot that in the original post.

As for Switzerland, always wanted to go to Bern, and I have an interest in the castles at Sion and Chillon. Also, as you mentioned, Switzerland is expensive, so I figured a handful of days wouldn't break me. I also have been in the Alps, though in Italy.

Thank you for specifically mentioning Normandy, because it's one area I have had a difficult time gauging how long to stay, and three nights didn't feel enough. How long would you allot? I also want to go to a couple of the chateaus there as well as Rouen.

Out of curiosity is it just Normandy and Switzerland that feels rushed? To give you an idea of my past stays, I have done 5 nights in places such as Paris and Rome, and four in others such as London, Amsterdam and Florence. Only in London and Paris did I feel like I needed more time (though obviously I did not get to do everything I wanted).

This is a time when I should probably have kept my fingers off the keyboard. It's impossible for me to set aside my interests, unfortunately, and they are so very different from yours.

Unless you're the rare bird who sleeps on an overnight flight, 4 nights in Berlin is 3 days, and I found 6 inadequate. The museums are huge and the city is spread out (no comparison to Amsterdam to me), so you aren't often just a 10-minute walk from your next stop. There's very good public transportation, but it still takes time. I have a special interest in WW II and especially Cold War history, so I spent much time going to Cold War sites that might not interest you. If you primarily plan to see the palaces at Potsdam, you may be fine with 4 nights.

Dresden: More large museums, though 2 nights is probably OK since it's not a whole-day trip from Berlin. I suspect I was reacting to the fact that you'll be in Dresden but won't have time for a day-trip to the stunning Goerlitz, which has nothing to do with having enough time for Dresden itself. If you want to see the Historic Green Vault, get your (timed) ticket upon arrival in the city so you don't miss out. And if part of your interest in palaces is the gorgeous decorative objects they often display, you certainly should see the Historic Green Vault, as well as the regular Green Vault.

Prague is full of architectural wonders, but many of the buildings I'm planning to see this year are late-19th / early-20th century, and quite likely not of interest to you. And lucky you are, because there are dozens and dozens of places on my list.

You'll have about 2-1/2 days in Munich if you get an early train. More large museums, but in truth it's not a city I have fallen in love with, so I'm not the one to give you a reason to stay longer.

You have 3 days for Strasbourg, all the rest of Alsace, and Lorraine. That seems really short to me since it's easy to spend a full day just in Colmar, between the Unterlinden Museum and wandering the historic district. Strasbourg could be a full day, if not longer. I know Haut Koenigsbourg is a big deal for castle folks. Wikipedia tells me it's near Selestat, which is quite a nice town that seemed devoid of tourists late last June. I'm not sure exactly what you plan to do in Lorraine, but I liked Nancy a lot (the art nouveau museum takes a good bit of time by itself).

I devoted the better part of 3 days to D-Day sites and museums in Normandy. If you have no interest in those--at least on this trip--that will save a bunch of time. I also visited three coastal towns east of Caen (Honfleur, Deaville and Cabourg), mainly for the architecture, but there are no castles or chateaus that I'm aware of. The large historic center of Rouen is lovely, though mainly reconstructed after being obliterated during the war. There are several good museums there, so it wasn't a quick visit for me. I liked Dinan, Dinard and Rennes better than the more-touristy St. Malo and skipped Mont-Saint-Michel. I very much enjoyed Fougeres and Vitre; each has a chateau that's impressive from the outside. I didn't go in either one, but perhaps they would be of interest to you. The towns are pretty, and I heard no English in either. I didn't have any trouble reaching them from Rennes, but a car would make things easier.

No, definitely glad you added your opinions, and you pegged me in the second paragraph. I do not sleep well on flights, though it takes a few days for it to catch up to me. And actually, I have a huge interest in WW II and some in the Cold War. So, my trip to Berlin was actually more to take in the WWII sites and museums, while I would get my castle fix later in the trip.

Any Cold War or WW II sites, and any museums that might be off the typical tourist path, you might recommend there or anywhere else?

I'm not sure about Goerlitz, though that is food for thought. The funny thing when you have 35 days is my first thought is 'Wow, 35 days. So much time.' And yet before I made my original post I had already decided against Krakow due to time.

The Alsace-Lorraine suggestions are interesting. I was only giving a full day in Strasbourg, and was not planning to be in Nancy. The closest to Nancy I believe I would be is Harreberg (small village some of my ancestors were from). I also was unsure of Colmar in terms of time, but that makes me consider spending more time there. Also, in the area, likely the same day as I would be in Harreberg, I was planning to head to Ribeauville (more ancestors, but south of Strasbourg).

The Fougeres and Vitre chateaus are ones I want to see. But I did want to go to the D-Day sites. So if it it took you three days for those (I was thinking two for me), that might be a change of plans as well. My original thought was to go to the the chateaus on the first full day and then D-Day sites the next. Finally, I was thinking of going to any remaining D-Day sites and Roen on my way out to Paris.

The language barrier is not an issue. I did OK in Paris -- getting directions when needed, small talk with people, ordering in restaurants -- and, aside from German (and English, of course), I'm probably more proficient in French than any other language.

Thanks for the input. It seems like there are some difficult choices ahead.

I understand about the itinerary-creep. I'm retired and can spend 89 days in the Schengen Zone every year plus a bit of extra time (up my limit of travel endurance) in a non-Schengen country if there is one handy. Still not enough time. 2016 started out being Spain and southern France. France got dropped pretty early in the planning process. Before I left home I had nixed Andalucia and the area around Valencia. And it's not like I covered everything I wanted to see in the rest of the country. There's just no hope of seeing everything.

As for Berlin, let me first suggest two places I didn't have time for, to my regret: The German History Museum and the Bundestag, both of which get frequent recommendations here. The first, I believe, is huge; one might perhaps concentrate just on the 20th-century exhibits.

Among the World War II sites, I sent to the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, which I found very affecting, but I didn't have time for the Visitor Center, which I understand is very good. The Memorial itself is accessible around the clock, so it can be visited when other places are closed.

Of the Cold War sites I visited, the one probably most likely to be overlooked is the former Stasi prison, the Gedenkstätte Berlin-Hohenschönhausen. It is not in central Berlin; directions are on the website, basically involving a tram and a healthy walk (more than 1/2 mile, I'm sure). There are English-language tours three times a day, but if those times don't work for you, the on-site museum includes English postings covering much of the same information. The tour begins with a film (maybe 15 or 20 min.?), and then goes into the former prison itself. The entire tour process might be about an hour, including the film. The museum could take longer than that. There's a very basic food source, offering perhaps not much more than sodas and pre-made sandwiches.

I usually skip non-government-run historical sites, but there are two in Berlin that I liked a lot. They are not universally appreciated on this forum, so perhaps you should read the reviews on TripAdvisor to get a balanced view. Perhaps you have to have lived through the Cold War... Both are subject to severe crowding. The second in particular gets lots of German visitors. Crowd-avoidance strategies should be implemented, such as going late in the afternoon or early in the evening. I didn't run into significant lines to get in, just crowded conditions as they day wore on.

• The Checkpoint Charlie Museum is sometimes called "Museum Haus am Checkpoint Charlie", and possibly other things as well. It focuses on escape attempts.

• The DDR Museum is a "what life was like" museum, covering food shortages, clothing quality, the importance of garden plots, leisure activities, etc. This place brought to life all the things I read back in the 1970s.

Among the government sites, I suggest that you consider:

• Berlin Wall Memorial: The largest remaining piece of the Wall (at Bernerstrasse), plus a museum-like space. There's overlap between the information provided here and at the Checkpoint Charlie Museum; if I had time for only one of them, I'd come here. It is quite time-consuming to read all of the posted material.
• Tränenpalast: Covers the process by which West Berliners were allowed to visit relatives in the east. Again, lots of posted material to read.

I really just scratched the surface. Consult a good guidebook for some additional ideas, and skim through TripAdvisor's Things To Do list. There have also been some places mentioned on this forum that I didn't get to see. You may or may not be able to turn them up by using the Search function (I don't find it very useful).

If you have time for one non-historical destination, I'd recommend the Pergamon Museum on Museumsinseln, but unfortunately there can be significant entry lines at all of those museums.

Normandy/Brittany:

With a car, you can probably do a pretty decent job of Fougeres and Vitre in one day. I didn't go inside the chateaus, but I walked around a great deal and likely didn't spend more than 3 or 4 hours in either place. My modus operandi in towns like those is to walk every street in the historic district; most travelers aren't so obsessive. Also, I was traveling by bus from Rennes, and I am not an early riser.

I highly, highly recommend a one-day van tour to the D-Day sites. It will cost about 95 euros, but it is so much more efficient that a do-it-yourself approach. If you drive around yourself you'll probably miss half of what my tour covered, and you won't necessarily understand much of what you do see. That's how I spent one full day; I took an Overlord Tour that originated in Bayeux. They do more than one tour, and there's also a two-day tour. One of the stops on my tour (US-focused) was Ste-Mere-Eglise, where most of us wolfed down a sandwich for lunch and went to the Airborne Museum. It was fine, but I thought not as professionally presented as the museums in Bayeux and Caen. It probably did have more detail about airborne activities, per se. I'm afraid the finer points of military activity are rather lost on me.

I also went to the good WW II museum on the outskirts of Bayeux. I no longer remember how much time I spent there, but it was certainly at least 2 hours and may have been 4. There's a nearby British cemetery that I didn't get to. While in Bayeux I also saw the tapestry; if you go early in the morning it won't take too long.

I spent some of my nights in Caen because it's the best public-transportation hub for a lot of the places I wanted to go. (There's also a castle.) That city has a huge Peace Museum that seems to be either really liked (by me and some others) or quite disliked (by yet others)--possibly because it is so large/overwhelming, frequently crowded, and covers more than the wartime period. I liked seeing the French take on the Cold War, but it's an 8-hour visit if you want to take it all in, and the more such places you go, the more duplication there is. I think perhaps the ticket is good for two days, but I'm not sure. It's not a cheap ticket, and it's well outside the center city, so you'll need your car of you'll be on a bus for quite a while. There is, fortunately, a place or two to get food inside the museum.

Another WW II museum I went to is a relatively new one in Falaise. It focuses on civilian life during the war, including the Resistance. I thought it was very well done. The town itself was destroyed during the war, so there's very little left to see. As an indication of how little I am interested in castles: I have no memory of there being a castle in Falaise, yet the internet tells me it has a "tremendously imposing" one! So there you have two birds to be killed with one stone. Just don't expect there to be much else to the town.

Nancy, incidentally, is sort of the mother-ship of Art Nouveau in France, and I especially like that style. It's quite a handsome city, but I don't think it's a must for you.

There are a bunch of (touristy) picturesque wine villages near Colmar, of which Ribeauville is one. You can't go wrong in that area as long as you don't expect to have the towns to yourself. Colmar is special because of its size and the wonderful museum (the Isenheim Altarpiece is a masterpiece).

All the museums I've mentioned in France and in Germany have done a good job of providing English-language explanatory material. I am dependent on that, else I'd have to spend a month in each place with a dictionary in my hand.

Apologies for all the missing diacritical marks. I'm lazy.

Thanks!

Berlin is difficult because I was planning on seeing Checkpoint Charlie among others there, and you've given me a good timeframe for that visit and more things to mull over there. I have an (old) Rick guidebook from 2008 for Germany, but recently ordered a more recent edition. Same with France (2010), which served me well four years ago, but now I'm not as sure.

Also very helpful information on Normandy. I'm not an early riser either in the US, but tend to do well overseas. The airborne aspect of the one museum actually may be perfect for me; my great uncle was in one of the glider units.

I think I'm going to have to find a way to add time in at Berlin and Normandy. Bavaria is a must (more ancestors and castles).

Also, when filling out my early sketch at an itinerary, I left out Oradur-sur-Glane. I've wanted to see it since watching World at War when I was young. Have you been there?

I have not, and I would like to see it. Haven't really hit the western half of France yet. I'll research the public-transportation options on my next trip to France. It's too bad buses don't give frequent-traveler miles.

Normandy: If you should settle on Bayeux as a base and are interested in a reasonably priced VRBO apartment (1 BR/1 bath) that worked for us, shoot me a PM and I'll send a link.

That is correct. Oradour-sur-Glane is shown and mentioned in the "World at War" series of 40 years ago.

If you want find out what happened, what brought about the event at Oradour-sur-Glane, I suggest looking at the book by the British military historian, Max Hastings, on the unit to which the perpetrators belonged, a very good discussion of the event and the aftermath.

On Berlin and WW2 related sites...there are numerous esoteric war related sites all over Berlin, depending on your level of interest. These are ones which are absolutely off the North American and international "tourist path."

If you plan to be in Alsace-Lorraine, there is one war-related town, definitely off " the tourist path," in particular, in Lorraine liberated by the Americans but they were considered and viewed upon as "different."

These US troops were the Japanese-Americans, the Nisei, of the 442 RCT who liberated this town. The town pays tribute to these liberators, you'll see evidence of that in the town. The town is Bruyeres, located more in Lorraine than in Alsace.

If you want find out what happened, what brought about the event at Oradour-sur-Glane, I suggest looking at the book by the British military historian, Max Hastings, on the unit to which the perpetrators belonged, a very good discussion of the event and the aftermath.

Interesting because I've read quite a few of his books, so I will be looking for that.

These US troops were the Japanese-Americans, the Nisei, of the 442 RCT who liberated this town. The town pays tribute to these liberators, you'll see evidence of that in the town. The town is Bruyeres, located more in Lorraine than in Alsace.

I've read about the Nisei, so I would be interested in that. And judging by my ancestors, I probably will be spending more time in Lorraine. Thanks for the tips.

Hi,

That book by Max Hastings is called, "Das Reich" ie, on that Waffen SS unit that became a tank division. The book I believe was written in 1980 or thereabouts. He discusses the event of Oradour-sur-Glane.

I'll add a comment on the museums in Caen and Bayeaux. In short, ideally you should see both. I liked both, even though the Caen museum's price was bit stiff but the ticket was valid for two days. That was in 2001 prior to the Euro.

If you want historical overkill, lots of info thrown at you, then see the Caen museum. If you want more of a concise, organised treatment of D-Day and the Normandy campaign, then go to Bayeux.

"...a huge interest in WW2...." Then I heartily recommend the Resistance Museum, the Gedenkstätte deutscher Widerstand on Stauffenbergstraße, ca 300 meters from the HI hostel on Kluckstraße, the sign there points the way to the museum. If you have a good reading knowledge of German, you won't find the audio phones necessary. If you saw the movie, "Valkyrie," the last scene was filmed at that very site on the Bendlerblock where Stauffenberg and the 3 others were shot. The museum is all in German, the free literature behind the counter, etc.

I would suggest too if you were going in the direction south of Stuttgart and Tübingen to see the Stauffenberg Schloss. It's located between Hechingen and Meßkirchen, which only some years ago the Stauffenberg family decided that this Schloss, ie chateau serve as a memorial to Stauffenberg and his brother, both of whom perished.

Like the Resistance Museum, this place is very poignant, I went there last June, all the exhibits are in German, there are headphones but they are also in German. The Schloss is ca 6 mins from the train stop but is concealed by the bushes.

Thanks Fred,

I will be looking for "Das Reich". I've enjoyed Hastings' writing in the past, and like I mentioned, I've had an interest in the town since seeing World at War.

The museums sound good as well. I definitely have a huge interest in the resistance. I remember hearing or reading about the final scene in Valkyrie (I did watch the movie), so I will head there. That is certain with the ever-changing itinerary I have.

I will be in the Stuttgart area. I'm not sure about the length of time yet, but it sounds like an easy trip from the train stop. I was curious about tourism in the area because I have not seen a lot in many of the guidebooks about Stuttgart.

I appreciate all the suggestions. A lot to consider. My 35 nights are getting packed.

Hi,

The Schloss Stauffenburg is located in a town, a very small place, south of Stuttgart and south of Tübingen. It is in the town of Albstadt Lautlingen between Hechingen and Meßkirchen. If you take the train from Stuttgart to Hechingen, change for Albstadt Lautlingen. Get off there. That stop is like a pit stop. Walk down the stairs on that bridge to get to the sidewalk, still hard to find, That sidewalk street should be "Von Stauffenburg Straße." Once you locate that street, it should be 5-6 mins walk to the Schloss grounds, anymore you've overshot it.

The museum does provide a few brochures, they're all in German, one of these is in French too since you read French. The whole place is so esoteric that chances are you'll be the only person visiting, which was exactly in my case when I visited the Schloss last June.

Hi,

Part 2 here...a comment about that movie. It is based on Peter Hoffmann's (of McGill University/Montreal) book. The English title (unless you want the original German title since he wrote the book in German) is "History of the German Resistance." (trans.)

I really think you're trying to do to much here. I would cut out at least one region to give more realistic time frames to other areas, because as it is you're going to be spending a ton of time in transit.

For example, the Romantic road, Heidelberg, and the Black Forest are not all that close to each other and traffic on the major motorways getting to/from those areas can be killer. The Black Forest is a hugely overrated tourist destination in my book, anyway, unless you're into hiking. Since you're into castles, I'd do the romantic rhine instead of this part entirely. The Swiss part of the trip is a big outlier, too.

You also want to be in Munich for Oktoberfest but presumably you don't have a hotel yet...hope you're willing to pay through the nose or stay well outside of Munich. It's a great city but visiting during Oktoberfest is a pain. You could drop it for this trip, add a couple nights in Stuttgart and visit the Volksfest here, which is, like Oktoberfest, a huge and historic beer festival, but unlike Oktoberfest, not overrun with drunk Aussies and Chinese. It also does not drive up the cost of hotels to the same degree. There are also a few notable castles in the area, including two right downtown, the Ludwigsburg schloss, Hohenzollern, Lichtenstein...

One problem I am having is getting the trains with Switzerland and Strasbourg to work in terms of timing and stops. So I have set Stuttgart as a changeover.
Rental car – Romantic road, Black Forest, Heidelberg area (3 nights)
Bern by train (3 nights, this takes time so I would have two full days)
Rental – Sion and Chillon (2 nights)
To Strasbourg via Stuttgart (2 nights, arriving early evening)

Look at a map. Switzerland to Strasbourg via Stuttgart is a huge detour, you would also be doubling back on yourself. The route from Bern (or anywhere else in Switzerland) to Strasbourg is easy. What problem are you having?
And, where are you looking for your train times? You should be looking directly at the railway company website, or the DB (German Railways) site: https://www.bahn.com/en/view/index.shtml
Ticket resellers do not show all the trains.

Also Heidelberg is very near Strasbourg. You could go Heidelberg --> Strasbourg - Switzerland, then go direct from Switzerland to Tours.
I think printing a map from the Internet and drawing your route on it would help.

Look at a map. Switzerland to Strasbourg via Stuttgart is a huge detour, you would also be doubling back on yourself. The route from Bern (or anywhere else in Switzerland) to Strasbourg is easy. What problem are you having?

I have looked at maps. Plenty. And I know where these cities are located without having to look at a map (Geography -- I actually am very familiar with that subject). So obviously I don't need to print a map to know where I'm going.

So, to quote you, "what problem" am I having? Price and time and too many stopovers on the Bern to Strasbourg route. I think it's something built into the Rail Europe site. It actually was far more cheaper, and shaved time, going to Stuttgart on that site as opposed to straight to Strasbourg. But, as mentioned, I was looking at Rail Europe (and not for my dates of travel, as they are not up on the site yet) and not the bahn site referenced by you.

But maps and geography are not a problem, Chris. I know those well. That's why I inputted Bern to Strasbourg countless times before trying to come up with an alternative, which was Stuttgart. So I did do my research before posting.

However, I will take you up on your suggestion about consulting the train company's site directly.

You also want to be in Munich for Oktoberfest but presumably you don't have a hotel yet...hope you're willing to pay through the nose or stay well outside of Munich. It's a great city but visiting during Oktoberfest is a pain. You could drop it for this trip, add a couple nights in Stuttgart and visit the Volksfest here, which is, like Oktoberfest, a huge and historic beer festival, but unlike Oktoberfest, not overrun with drunk Aussies and Chinese. It also does not drive up the cost of hotels to the same degree. There are also a few notable castles in the area, including two right downtown, the Ludwigsburg schloss, Hohenzollern, Lichtenstein...

Thanks, Sarah.

I do know of the Volksfest, but had not considered it for this trip. But that is something interesting to consider. I still will probably head to the Oktoberfest at some point, though I have no problem staying outside Munich and taking the train to and from.

Also, I appreciate the information on Stuttgart's castles. Interesting.

And I erred when I posted the driving -- mainly the Black Forest is something I was considering when in Lorraine.

As you mentioned dropping areas, I've already switched two of the regions and reconfigured my plans a bit. I was thinking of Stuttgart after Berlin, or toward Munich after Berlin and then to the Stuttgart area. I think I'm ruling out Prague and perhaps making Dresden a day trip from Berlin based on what I would like to do.

I do understand Switzerland is a bit of an outlier on this trip, but I still would like to go there. Like the Black Forest, I have ancestors from Switzerland, Bern in particular. So, for now, I'm kind of holding on to that.

So many decisions, but I appreciate your help.

Price and time and too many stopovers on the Bern to Strasbourg route. I think it's something built into the Rail Europe site. It actually was far more cheaper, and shaved time, going to Stuttgart on that site as opposed to straight to Strasbourg.

Answer: don't use rail Europe. To find times use the DB website: https://www.bahn.com/en/view/index.shtml
To buy tickets use the website of the company running the trains.
I looked up Bern to Strasbourg for 12th September.

Bern dep 09:04, change Basel, Strasbourg Ville arr 11:39
Bern dep 09:36, change Basel and Mulhouse, Strasbourg Ville arr 12:09
Bern dep 10:04, change Basel, Strasbourg Ville arr 12:39
Bern dep 11:04, change Basel, Strasbourg Ville arr 13:39

And so on through the day. SBB (Swiss railways) are currently offering tickets for the first train (09:04) at CHF 68.

Bern - Stuttgart is Bern - Basel - Offenburg - Karlsruhe - Stuttgart, then you would need to go back along the same track to Karlsruhe and Offenburg, and cross over the Rhine to Strasbourg

Hi,

I would suggest also not to use Rail Europe to figure out, plan and tailor your train routes. Use bahn.com or bahn.de (If you want the info in German). There is also the night train option...taking the the night train from Berlin to Munich but you have transfer in Hannover, ie from Hannover Hbf to Munich Hbf is a straight shot. I've done that in the reverse direction, ie Munich to Hannover, then change to Berlin.

Now, if you want to go to Stuttgart from Berlin by night train, there isn't one but you can tailor your own route. Take Berlin to Offenburg on the night train, then Offenburg to Stuttgart. If taking a night train poses no problem to you, then it's very doable.

If you stick with going to Tours (the site of the decisive battle in French history), be advised that one hour away or so to the west is Saumur, famous for not only for its wine, etc but also the big tank museum in France is located there, should you be interested, like its counterparts in England and Germany.

Chris, Fred,

Thanks for the suggestions. I definitely will tailor plans around on the bahn site as opposed to Rail Europe. I realize Rail Europe is hit and miss from when I went to Italy, and this will shave time from backtracking to get from Bern to Strasbourg.

Is there a better site for France than Rail Europe?

Also, Fred, I will be in the Tours area, though I am not sure where I will base myself. I remember reading -- I think in my old Rick Steeves guide -- that it was best to base yourself on one side of Tours or the other when it comes to chateaus in that area because of traffic. Saumur's chateau was one I was interested in seeing, so the tank museum (and the wine) is added incentive.

@ LeeGee....bahn.com (or bahn.de) has info on train travel all over Europe, obviously not the ticket prices but the schedules are listed. Only those prices listed have either the start or terminus in Germany For info on rail travel in France, I use bahn.de and to a lesser extent the SNCF website, Bottom line...forget about Rail Europe.

The tank museum in Saumur markets itself as the largest in Europe. I've not been there yet, but if what the Saumur museum says about itself is accurate, then the place is even bigger than the tank museum in England, ie Bovington, 2.5 hrs from London Waterloo statio.

I found Bovington huge with tanks everywhere. even before you enter the area of the specialized exhibit where more tanks are featured. Count on spending the entire afternoon in Saumur, if your time permits.