Itinerary for 10 days, Art lovers

Insofar as a women's concentration camp is concerned , Dachau , near Munich , was not gender segregated . The one that you are thinking of is Ravensbruck , about sixty miles north of Berlin .

(but I would be fine skipping some of Germany if a case can be made to
see Poland instead of southern/western Germany).

Why Southern/Western Germany when you fly into Berlin, which is in Eastern Germany? There's plenty to see in Eastern/Northern Germany too, you don't have to cross the whole country just to see a romantic town or a castle. Speaking of castles: if by castle you mean a medieval, fortified struture: there is none close to Berlin, they were all changed in later centuries. But the most visited castles in the rest of the country aren't medieval either. Potsdam, close to Berlin, offers several baroque and neoclassical castles and palaces. In Schwerin, the former capital of the duchy of Mecklenburg, you can see the Neuschwanstein of the north. Unlike the real Neuschwanstein however this castle was only heavily changed in the 19th century, you can still see parts of the previous castle(s). Schwerin itself is also pretty nice, with a preserved old town surrounded by seven lakes. For a medieval, fortified town you could visit Tangermünde.
But if you plan to see Poland too you don't have much time for day trips anyway. IMHO Berlin requires at least 4-5 days, Warsaw 2-3, and Krakow 3-4. Krakow is nicer than Warsaw, which was completely destroyed in WW2, but the reconstructed old town is quite impressive. It's easier however to get to Warsaw from Berlin.
If you just want to set your foot on Polish soil you could also take the train to Usedom or Görlitz, and spend a night there. Usedom is one of Germanys most popular summer destinations, with endless beaches and beautiful 19th century resorts, Görlitz is one of Germanys best preserved towns with 4.000 listed buildings. In both cases it's a short walk to Poland, but there isn't a lot to see.

This is my trip report from last summer when I visited Berlin, Ravensbruck (the womens' KZ) Sachsenhausen KZ, Bergen Belsen KZ, Potsdam and Dresden.
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/jo-s-travels-thru-germany-2014-edition

There is enough art in Berlin, Dresden and Potsdam to keep most people happy. There is also enough WWII and Jewish history here to keep you busy for a while. I really enjoyed the Palaces at Potsdam and the estate/park where they are. Though you can easily do this as a day trip from Berlin, I stayed in the Dutch Quarter which I found very charming. Potsdam is one of the prettier cities with a unique architecture style.

Perhaps give Dresden 3 days, Potsdam 2 days, Berlin 5 days. If you really want to go further, head up to Hamburg. Want a quaint town, consider going to Quedlinburg, Lübeck or Celle.

Berlin has many Shoah sites within the city, including the remains of the synagogue which is now a museum, the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, and others.

If you choose Warsaw, there is a new Jewish Museum there and a path marked with memorials of the Ghetto Uprising. The concentration camp of Majdanek is not far outside the city.

Kraków has several memorials in the city as well, including the Schindler Factory Museum. Auschwitz-Birkenau is about an hour away by bus.

With your amount of time, I would choose Berlin and one other city, fly into one and out of another.

I would think that if modern art and design are the focus of your trip that your first stop would be Dessau, home of the Bauhaus movement. It's a quick ride from Berlin.

Düsseldorf, as the home the German fashion industry, also specializes in modern.

Berlin has certainly its share of modern/contemporary art. About Modernism the place to go is indeed Dessau (School, Meisterhäuser, Kornhaus). If there is not enough time there is in Berlin also the museum Bauhaus-Archiv and they organize tours as well. With Berlin I have no experience, but Dessau impressed me very much anyway. I like the combination of “old and new” of the “Reichstag” especially the dome by Norman Foster.

Warsaw has more art and museums, but Krakow is by far the more beautiful, and a few evenings spent eating in the main square is well worth it.

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful input, and thank you especially, Ms. Jo, for pointing me to your travel story.

I've been rethinking a bit after doing more research and a few things have become clearer to me:

1) I don't want to spend the whole time in museums. When I think back about all the memories I have from my travels, very few of them involve museums. I want to see if I can find things that are quintessentially "German", whether it is a musical performance, a castle, a beer hall (even though I don't drink) or something I don't even know about yet.
2) I don't want to go to Poland on this trip. I'd rather spend the limited time exploring more German cities

I am thinking right now that we should spend a few days in Berlin for sure and I would really like to see the Dokumentationszentrum Reichsparteitagsgelaende in Nuremberg. I am also leaning heavily toward Munich (with a visit to Neuschwanstein Castle as a day trip?). However, I'm wondering, will we see enough of the "old world charm"? Meaning, half timbered buildings and centuries of architecture that I didn't know I would want to see until I did more research? Perhaps we should try to go to Bamberg? Is that even the right place?

My friend does not want to move too many times, and that was my first thought as well, but now I'm beginning to see how much I want to see.

Could we do

2 days in Berlin

2 days in Nuremberg with a half-day in Bamberg

3 days in Munich with a side trip to Neuschwanstein Castle

1 more day in Berlin

(I realize this adds to 8 days not 10, but I'm not sure how all the flights are going to pan out with connections. I'm sure we can always find more stuff to do in Berlin or another stop!!)

Thanks!

If round trip to Berllin is the best airfare you can find then your itinerary is fine. If, as you say, you don't really want to move around too much, you might look into open-jaw flights into Berlin and home from Munich, then you won't have to backtrack to Berlin and you can do 3 days at the beginning of your trip. If it's an extra cost for the open-jaw flights, make sure you factor in the time and $$ to return to Berlin and also the inconvenience of moving hotels an additional time. My open-jaw flights were $200 more than round trip but when I factored in the time and expense of moving back it was worth it.

So far, open jaw is the same price for my travelling companion flying from Montana, but for me out of Boston, it adds about $300 if I purchase the ticket the normal ways.. Since I'm still holding out hope for some way of doing this will miles (I have the miles for it, but the fees are $700 with what I'm getting offered right now), I may be able to do figure it out, or I may just do the open leg and figure the $300 is worth it in the time and money saved in getting back to Berlin.

However, I'm wondering, will we see enough of the "old world charm"? Meaning, half timbered buildings and centuries of architecture that I didn't know I would want to see until I did more research?
Could we do 2 days in Berlin, 2 days in Nuremberg with a half-day in
Bamberg, 3 days in Munich with a side trip to Neuschwanstein Castle, 1
more day in Berlin

Sure you could, but most people recommend to spend at least 4 days in Berlin, or 5 with a day trip to Potsdam. Especially if you are interested in things like modern art. And traveling 6 hours down to Munich (for "old world charm", something which you can find almost anywhere, and a fake castle you initially didn't want to see), and 6 hours back to Berlin for just one day is a lot of wasted time. If you want old world charm and half-timbered buildings you don't have to waste so much time on trains, there is a wonderful region much closer to Berlin, with dozens of towns full of half-timbered houses: the Harz mountains. They are just 3 hours away from Berlin, offer everything you want (except beer halls), they are less touristy, cheaper, and probably more authentic. Here is a gallery with 130.000 pics of the region (have a look at Quedlinburg, Goslar, Wernigerode, Stolberg, Wolfenbüttel or the cathedral of Halberstadt), or read the reviews on Tripadvisor about Quedlinburg. The old towns of Quedlinburg and Goslar are World Heritage Sites btw., unlike Rothenburg odT. for instance.

And there are three other regions 3 hours away from Berlin which offer the same "old world charm": Thuringia, Saxony and the Baltic coast. The Baltic coast is a wonderful mix of preserved Hanseatic towns (4 of them are World Heritage Sites), 19th century resorts, nature and beaches, Thuringia is all about small towns (Ricks Steves calls Erfurt, the capital of Thuringia, a "untouristy Rothenburg") and Goethe, and Saxony offers everything from small towns, world-class museums, castles, fortresses and palaces to vineyards, nature and traditions.

I know anything but Bavaria and the Rhine is a very hard sell on this board, but to me it's just a waste of time to travel down to Southern Bavaria if you fly in and out of Berlin. I would split the time evenly between Berlin and one of the mentioned regions. Less traveling, more sightseeing.

Considering your art interests, you may want to visit Murnau, home to the Blue Rider Group of German Expressionists in the early 1900s. The town is south of Munich on the way to Neuschwanstein.

What Martin said. If it's half timber you seek, head to the Hartz mountain region of Sachsen-Anhalt. You can also find many of these types of towns in Saxony, although I have less experience here to go into any detail (Martin?). You'll find plenty of castles in both of these states, plus Thüringen.

So... are you actually interested in modern art or not? The list of locations you gave seems to be mostly Old Germany. But if you want a combination of both, I would say Dessau and the immediate area could provide you with such a mix For the Bauhaus stuff as previously mentioned in the city, but also for the wonderful Dessau-Wörlitz Garden Realm, which is a series of beautiful parks, villages and old noble estates. THe city of Dessau proper, however, is not very interesting.

PS- Most of the things that get protrayed as "typically German" in tourist literature are Bavarian, and more specifically, southern Bavarian. Beer Halls are pretty much only found in Munich.

Liz, it looks like you are doing research and giving a lot of thought to your itinerary. I see some strong sales pitches on here for places that are important to the posters, but I would only suggest that you choose your destination based on your primary interests. In considering airfare, also consider transportation time and costs to get to the places you want to visit.

Again, thank you all so much for giving me so much to think about!

Yes, I still want to see art, as well as WWII and Cold War history. I understand that what many Americans think of typically German is specific to Bavaria (or I'm learning that!).

I do want to explore different regions and don't mind being on trains; in fact, I quite like watching the countryside go by, and once you're going to the station, moving your luggage, waiting, etc, the difference between a one hour and a four hour ride is not much.

I am VERY interested in the Nuremburg area and so is my friend (you may be wondering why most of the views expressed are mine and don't include my friend's; she is under a deadline at work currently and hasn't been able to research much yet). Everything I have seen about the documentation center there indicates that we would enjoy it, and that it would be unique. Have people found that to not be the case?

Regarding Bamberg, I read in the UNESCO world heritage material that it was unique because it features three different types of historical buildings/time periods. I also considered Rothenberg but it didn't seem as unique (although still quite interesting!) but I'll have to look into the others mentioned here.

Is there a reason Quedlinburg is "better" than Bamberg that I'm not seeing? I saw a good route involving Bamberg, but Quedlingberg seems out of the way.

I will have to reconsider Munich; maybe it's too similar to Berlin?. It did seem to have interesting museums, palaces, gardens (though we will be going in September; shame, because I love flowers!) etc. And as much as I don't like beer, it seems almost obligatory we should go to a beer hall at least once! (Could I get a coke zero to go with my brezel?) Maybe it's not worth going to the Neuschwanstein Castle. There were mixed reviews, but I chalked that up to overly high expectations. Any thoughts?

Thanks again!

Also, I'm leaning towards open jaw ticket, especially if I can manage to do it with miles instead of paying cash. Even if I pay cash, I may still pay the extra $300 or so, for the many reasons you fine folks have mentioned. I only have so many days of vacation, and every move ON my trip costs money, too.

Someone mentioned that Neuschwanstein Castle is the "fake castle". I didn't realize it was that one. The one I had read about was built by a set designer I thought, but I could be getting all my stories confused at this point!

If we do go to Munich, it would be a good place from which to go to Dachau as well, though we could do an extra day in Berlin and go to Ravensbruck as well.

"Someone mentioned that Neuschwanstein Castle is the "fake castle".

Was it built during the medieval period, no. Does that make it not a "real castle"? You'll get different opinions on this matter, but I would say if it looks like a duck, walk likes a duck, then it's probably a castle. A large portion of the non-ruined structures that we refer to as "castles" in Europe are basically 19th century elborations built atop the shells of much older structures. Who cares that the king who built it only stayed there briefly, not his fault that he was deposed and died shortly thereafter. It still looks really cool, no matter what you call it.

Parts of Neuschwanstein were designed by a set designer but I don't know for sure if that's the castle you refer to. If you're in the area and you want to see it, there's no reason not to. There was a great program on PBS recently called something like "The Fairytale Castles of Ludwig II" - if you search the PBS website it should come up. I'd recommend watching that before you make a decision. The program focuses on Neuschwanstein, Ludwig's father's castle Hohenschwangau where Ludwig grew up, and two retreats, including one modeled after Versailles, which Ludwig built. Fascinating stuff.

I agree with Tom about Neuschwanstein - it wasn't built for defense like medieval castles, but it has its own merit. It's an interesting example of a fantasy castle. Ludwig was obsessed with medieval Germanic saga characters like Lohengrin; the whole place represents his obsession with these stories and with theatrical productions.

Sarah brings up a good point. You get the most out of your visit to Neuschwanstein if you pre-read on Ludwig's obsession with Wagner's operas and the legends on which these are based. The English-language tour is, unfortunately, little more than a direct translation of the German tour, which largely assumes you already understand exactly who Lohengrin, Tannhäuser, Tristan, Isolde, Brunhilde, Hagen, Parsifal, Hans Sachs, and Siegfried are.

One wishes Ludwig hadn't run out of money. Otherwise, Lee from Colorado's favorite Alpenstraße town of Pfronten would probably be as famous a tourist draw as Füssen.

To put another twist on Neuschwanstein , given that you are from New England , keep in mind that it is contemporaneous with the the Gilded Age " summer cottages " on Bellvue Avenue in Newport , Rhode Island . Ludwig's architectural indulgences are even more elaborate , and they are indicative of the overindulgence of the late nineteenth century which ultimately contributed to the start of the Great War .

FWIW, there are true medieval castles in scenic settings of their own near Munich. Hohensalzburg for example.

Hi,

Aside from your interest in art, if you want to see or visit places not considered by Americans as "typically German" which has been accurately pointed out to you as Bavarian, then plan your itinerary on going elsewhere in Germany, ie not Bavaria, the American comfort zone, to see aspects of German culture, history, etc. I suggest choosing from Berlin, Lübeck, Potsdam, Greifswald, Kassel, (too bad the particular art show there isn't on until 2017), Hamburg, Dresden, Köln, Frankfurt, Leipzig, Weimar, Heidelberg, Koblenz, Marburg, Minden, Celle, Bonn, Bremen, Münster, Schwerin, Meißen, Lüneburg, Jena, etc.

You can sample the Bauhaus, fundamental to modern design, without going to Dessau. The Bauhaus archives are located in Berlin, housed in a modernist structure that functions as a museum. http://www.bauhaus.de/en/

Thank you for the explanations on Neuschwanstein Castle. I usually read up about places I visit in detail before I go, but I would wait a bit so it's fresh in my mind when I get there. However, I did just review the Wikipedia article, and I finally understand the bit about the stage designer and I understand that this was Ludwig's intent, not a modern reconstruction. Sounds like I'll be listening to some more Wagner, too! I see that we might be able to visit Hohenschwangau Castle on the same day trip if we get a tour from Munich.

I want to talk more with my friend after her deadline in a few weeks and see if this is something she wants to do, and generally see what she wants to focus on. At first we were solely focused on art and design (though I did tell her about the castle and she seemed game), but as my focus has shifted, I want to see where she stands. I will mention Dessau to her. I'm not as familiar with the Bauhaus movement, though I'm sure she will be.

(Regarding Newport RI and my being from New England, well, this is rather embarrassing, but I have not traveled at all in my home territory despite living in Boston for over 10 years. I don't like to drive, and the trains in this region are pathetic, so when I travel, I tend to fly to a city or to meet my family someplace where they will do the driving!)

I do want to see "typical" Germany. I especially want to make sure I don't see only one region. When I went to Turkey, it was wonderful to travel extensively to see the geography and landscape change so drastically, and the same was true (albeit to a lesser extent) in Spain and Thailand.