Include Rhine Valley in 11 day trip?

Date of travel?
What are your interests?

Are you traveling by car or public transportation?

What would be your interests then, if 2 of the most historic cities in Germany hold no interest for you? Ancient churches including one of the oldest in Germany, a cathedral almost 1000 years old and seat of one of the most powerful archbishops in Europe, churches with gorgeous windows created by Chagall, Jewish Heritage sites, dozens of world-class museums, original half-timbered architecture, farmers markets, Roman sites, Holocaust Memorials, sites where historical evens happened? Because that is what both Frankfurt and Mainz have. They may not have any Nazi sites like Munich does, but I think that is ok. You find visiting these 2 cities a waste of time, yet you want to go visit an 1800's palace and a town that is 40% reconstructed to look like it is old.

Am rather baffled.

Welcome to the forum.

"Do you feel this is worth our time/money to go out of our way to visit this area?"

I can't speak to the cost of your open-jaws flight plan that uses FRA and MUC. Sometimes those flights cost less than the round trip. The additional time required for your Rhine visit is pretty small. FRA to Bacharach (a cheap local trip by regional train) might take an hour - but then your flight into FRA will be shorter as well. Of course you then have to travel a healthy distance from the Rhine to Bavaria... but the long-distance trains are amazingly fast. Frankfurt to Munich for example can be done in just 3 hours - and if you pick up a DB "saver fare", your fare might be only €20.

The more important question might be this: Why would any traveler to Germany skip the Middle Rhine Valley? It's short on museums and big-city entertainment/comfort, but if you're into smaller old-world towns, great scenery, outdoor activities, local and European history and culture, medieval castles, wine industry / wine tasting, and scenic train/boat trips and chairlift rides, there's no place in Germany where these elements come together more perfectly than the Rhine/Mosel region.

A boat tour of the Rhine Valley "from Mainz to Koblenz" is unnecessarily long and expensive, and would include much mediocre scenery along with the great stuff. I suggest you cruise only the Bingen > St. Goar (1.5 hours) or Bingen > Boppard (2.3 hrs) segment. Staying in St. Goar makes this easy. You board the train to Bingen and cruise back.

Alternatively, it's possible to take the train from FRA airport to Bingen, board there with your bags, and disembark in St. Goar. That way, your first glimpse of the Rhine will be the most scenic one possible.

The big question is, "When is this trip?" The Rhine towns are much better visited during the warmer months than in winter.

Frankfurt is not my favorite city, but Ms. Jo is perfectly right. And Bavaria is not my favorite part of Germany either. We took KD from Bingen to Boppard, and the train back to our hotel. Staying on the Rhine is a perfectly good idea.

The Middle Rhine valley is much more interesting and worth seeing than the Romantic Road and the "castles". The R Road is just a road linking some nice but not-that-nice towns. The castles are worth it to some but not others.

Thank you for your feedback.

We will be traveling October 8th-18th.

We will be using public transportation only. Any helpful tips and advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Bus vs. train, cheaper fares, etc.

Our interests include "smaller old-world towns, great scenery, outdoor activities, local and European history, medieval castles, wine/beer, and scenic train/boat trips" (just as Russ listed so eloquently). So, I guess that's why the Rhine Valley sounds so intriguing. Perhaps I could use more details about what we could/should do and which cities to stay at while in this area. And perhaps we should plan to use one more day here and one less day in Fussen area - where hiking and biking in the alps appeal to us. Our boat tour plans have come from the Viator cruise we booked (but has easy and free cancellation) in which we cruise from Mainz to Koblenz. But if it would be better to make other plans to see a different area, please advice how that would look.

Essentially all of our information has come from Rick Steves travel guide for Germany, for better or worse. According to him, Frankfurt "offers a good look at today's no-nonsense, modern Germany." And in my ignorance, Ms. Jo, it appears to be more of a business and transportation hub with evil brothels and drug communities that I would like to avoid. Again, I am the first to admit my ignorance of Germany, which is why I am asking for advice.

Thanks again.

You have no obligation to visit Germany's larger cities if you don't want to. I don't see why your preference for smaller places shouldn't guide your itinerary - it is your trip.

For purposes of comparison, the 2 cruises I mentioned sell for €20 - €30 p.p. Using the train first to arrive in Bingen gets you a 20% cruise discount at the KD kiosk. Buy tickets there - there's no advantage to pre-purchase.

Other things you might undertake with a couple of days on the Rhine:

Marksburg Castle tour (town of Braubach; easy to reach by using the St. Goar ferry crossing + a 20-min. train ride.)
Boppard's old town + chairlift ride + walk to Gedeonseck terrace Boppard is about 10 train minutes n. of St. Goar.
Oberwesel's town wall walk
Rheinfels Castle in St. Goar

I tend to agree with the others that Rick Steves' emphases tend toward the hypertouristy places of tour buses and international tourists and that your days 4-8 could be better spent in places that are more significant and more like real living-breathing German cities and towns - not amusement parks. I would look in to Nuremberg, Bamberg, Würzburg, Bad Windsheim, Iphofen as possibilities if you wish to stop somewhere on the way to Munich. For the alps, you may want to do a day trip - or an overnight stop - to Garmisch-Partenkirchen and Mittenwald.

M'wald:
https://requisitosparavisa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/mittenwald_-3.jpg
https://hastingshouse.typepad.com/hastings_house_us/travel_in_europe/

G-P: https://www.gapa.de/en/Culture-health/Culture/Attractions

On our last trip to Germany, we arrived at Frankfurt, and immediately took a direct train to Bacharach. I think the route was 1.5 hrs. [I know several OPs prefer St Goar, which is a little longer train ride, but also charming.]

You are then in a beautiful small, relaxing area on the Rhine for your first day of jet lag, and can explore this area for the next several days. We took a boat ride, a train to Berg Elz, and then went onto Rothenburg.

I LOVE Rothenburg! I know more sophisticated travelers than myself can identify other half-timbered towns that they prefer, but not me, and I'm actually going back this December.

You can read the pros and cons of Fussen here on this Forum, by doing a search. I vote in the con category.

And with an open-jar ticket, you can depart from Munich. I usually set up Google Flight searches, and have not found open-jar tickets to be more expensive than RT.

Safe travels!

There's a train station in a commercial development named "The Square" attached to Terminal T-1. If you're arriving T-2, there's a free shuttle bus... From there. you can ride the train to ANYWHERE.

I like almost all the little towns of the lower Rhine. Use google maps (or some other map engine) to search for site/sights that interest you in/near these towns and study the DBahn web site for schedules.

I addition to the lower Rhine, I dearly love the Mosel. Koblenz and Trier, although large cities, are deserving visits.

If you're only using public transport, I would lean towards staying at Rothenburg o.d.T because it's on a train line. However, if you're interested in quaint towns, you might consider a rental car and stay in the much less touristy Dinkelsbuhl or Nordlingen and day trip into Rothenburg. In support of this option are the gems you will find along the Romantic Road on the way to Fussen.

As for the castles, I just stayed in Alterschrofen which is a really easy walking distance of Hohenschwangau. I like the idea of spending two nights here - one the night before visiting the castles and one the day of. The area can be fairly physically taxing if you are walking back and forth - up and down, and taking in some walking trails around the lake. I think we did a total of 7 miles that day...

BTW - if you're worried about driving in Germany, don't. Just due your due diligence (research German driving laws), have an International Driver's Permit (purchased at AAA), and pay attention. I just drove from Munich to Salzburg to Innsbruck to Hohenschwangau to the Mosel Valley (via Dinkelsbuhl) to Frankfurt and the rental car was MUCH less expensive than the train.

Good luck and have fun!

Todd

Days 4-5 - Rothenburg ob der taube (Do we do a day trip to Nurnberg or
Wurzberg or stay in Rothenburg both days? Or stop overnight in one of
those cities on the way to Rothenburg?)

If you really want to keep the towns "small" - not a bad idea since you have so little time for this area - then I might avoid spending time in both Nürnberg and Würzburg (even though these places are worthwhile.) 2 nights in Rothenburg might make sense... If you leave the Rhine early on Day 4 you'll see most of Rothenburg that same day. On Day 5 you could leave bags in your R'burg room and do a day outing by train to Bad Windsheim and its impressive Freilandmuseum, a collection of original local homes, farm buildings and other buildings from the last 5 centuries. They were disassembled and reconstructed on this site to preserve local history. There are some restaurants on site as well with period furnishings and traditional local food - and brew.

https://freilandmuseum.de/startseite/sprachen/information-en.html

From Rothenburg your train trip to Bad Windsheim takes just 50 minutes. Here's a map of the area train lines:

https://freilandmuseum.de/startseite/sprachen/information-en.html

You can buy a VGN Tagesticket Plus day pass for this train outing - about €20 for two adults:
https://www.vgn.de/en/tickets/all-day-ticket-plus/

Days 6-8 - Fussen/King's castles

Some words of caution
Also, Füssen is at the very end of a trunk railway - getting around the area will typically mean riding local buses that keep less frequent schedules than trains do.

There are several good options for base towns in the Alps. I've found the Garmisch-Partenkirchen region a little more interesting and pleasant to get around in, with the Zugspitze, Mittenwald, and Oberammergau as easy outings nearby. You can see the rail connections to these places on this map. And if you just want a nice train ride, follow the route from Garmisch into Austria that heads to Lermoos, Reutte, Vils. Getting to G-P from Rothenburg in the first place by train is no more tricky than getting to Füssen.

Mittenwald is especially adorable. You might want to take the Karwendelbahn lift there for some alpine walking. See this day trip guide to Mittenwald for ideas and details.

If you're only using public transport, I would lean towards staying at
Rothenburg o.d.T because it's on a train line. However, if you're
interested in quaint towns, you might consider a rental car and stay
in the much less touristy Dinkelsbuhl or Nordlingen and day trip into
Rothenburg. In support of this option are the gems you will find along
the Romantic Road on the way to Fussen.

Just thought I'd chime in that Nördlingen indeed is a pleasant, non-touristy old-world town. But understand that Nördlingen and Füssen, like Rothenburg, have train stations - Dinkelsbühl OTOH is one of those Romantic Road towns which does not - you use a bus to get there.

I would just like to add in addition to the other advice you've received that if you concern is having to kill a few hours in Frankfurt or Mainz, that's not a bad thing! Sure, both appear outwardly "modern" but both cities are ancient (Mainz is actually one of the oldest in Germany) and have existing historic structures that are unique and interesting. Especially since you said you're interested in wine/beer, well Frankfurt is home to it's own culture of "Abbelwoi" (Cider) pubs and Mainz is an important winemaking town with roots in viticulture that go back to Roman days. In fact, if you have any interest in Roman history, Mainz is the best option anywhere near the places you'll be going. You could certainly spend a couple hours exploring that waiting for your boat to depart.

Nuremberg is one of my favorites, but like Mainz and Frankfurt it's largely reconstructed due to Allied air raids, and Wurzburg I really don't understand the appeal outside of the Residenz and access to good wine (but that can be found anywhere in Franconia).

Have you considered Bamberg if you're interested in beer? It's famous for it's small breweries, especially for the smoked beer, and you can do a walking/hiking route that connects various breweries. You might prefer it to Nuremberg for it's historical center and you could do a day trip to Rothenburg or Nordlingen from there - I prefer the latter because it's less heavily touristed.

I love the Rhine River valley and usually make Bacharach my first stop after flying into Frankfurt. It is easy and quick to get to by train and worthy of at least 2 nights. From there you can do a river cruise and see lots of castles. I also love the Mosel River Valley and enjoy staying in Cochem and biking to Beilstein. Another must for me. Don't let people discourage you from Rothenburg ob der Tauber. Sure it has lots of tourists, but there is a reason for that as it is a very charming village with an intact wall surrounding it. If you go, be sure to do the Night Watchman's tour at 8:00 pm. Very entertaining and fun! I am not a big fan of Ludwig's castles, although I have seen several. I think one is enough. I would rather spend a night in Nurnberg, or maybe Wurzberg.

I have no recent experience with Viator, but I believe they don't actually operate anything themselves - they market and sell other people's tours and transportation. That's not a reason not to use them, but it means you are buying a black-box. Have you downloaded the KD schedule THAT COVERS your dates on the Rhine? (It's late in the boat season.) You get a discount on the boat with a same-day train ticket, and there is no need to pre-book in October. But if you find having the booking a comfort, that's a personal decision. Most people don't have the luxury in their schedule to wait for a clear, sunny day for their boat day!

I agree that it is, literally, a waste of time to cruise farther than Bingen to Boppard or St. Goar. Despite staying north of Koblenz, we took the local-ish train home from Boppard, and it was ten times faster than the boat, with no important scenery missed. Well, I'll admit that Koblenz is scenic, but you can see it just as well from the ground!

Are you making the mistake of thinking that you can take the S-Bahn from FRA to the Mainz boat dock? I haven't been to Mainz, but I assure you that the dock in Bingen is much, much closer, a five-minute walk, from the long-distance train station in Bingen!