Historic towns in Germany

Why not stay a few days in Nuremberg (Nürnberg) instead of Munich? It is a good base for visiting those typical German cities like Bamberg, Regensburg and/or Würzburg, which can all be reached within one hour (Bamberg is even just half an hour away).

From Frankfurt take a look at trains to Wurzburg (1hr 10min) and Bamberg (2hr 10min). These historic towns with UNESCO listings could be of appeal. I'm not sure how you could work this in to your time frame.

Germany is loaded with well-preserved historic towns throughout most regions of the country, not just the few that get heavily promoted by the tourist industry. What towns in particular did you have in mind? And what is your proposed route of travel?

Rothenburg is nice, and I wouldn't quite call it a "tourist trap". But it's also loaded with trinket shops, and it simply isn't as unique as all the travel literature claims. It's fun to visit, particularly if you don't need to move too far out of the way. But there's plenty of alternatives.

Gelnhausen is nice but the Rhine towns are also nice, and there are several of them you can see - Bacharach, Oberwesel, Braubach, Rüdesheim, and Boppard collectively offer much more than Gelnhausen alone - old-world buildings, old town walls, castles, vineyards, dramatic river scenery. Suggest you just head straight away to the Rhine Valley. (If you want to see Mainz, you could do that as a stop on your way to Switzerland.) I've posted more on this strategy on your other thread.

If they are looking for history, then I imagine this is why they chose Gelnhausen. Not sure if many of the small towns along the Rhine can compare? These were mainly just robber barons who built castles to collect tolls.
Gelnhausen has Barbarossas' palace, a church built in 1219, tons of half-timbered buildings, Büdingen and Ronnerburg Castle are also near-by. None of them have been bombed, so all are original. The castle does falcon shows, and Büdingen still has its' massive walls and towers. There is a large Celtic settlement near Gelnhausen & Büdingen at the Glauburg, that is truly fascinating.
Gelnhausen has stores where you can get your essentials, it isn't that small.

Yes, it is an hour in the other direction from the Rhine, but if you want to be there, it is worth it. Why not spend a night in Mainz, a night on the Rhine, then head to Gelnhausen for a night before going to Munich.

For getting "essentials", like SIM cards, the towns of the Rhein gorge might be a little small. Koblenz is larger, but not very interesting, IMO. I can see from Google Maps that some of the towns have small grocery chains (Rewe in Bacharach, Lidl in Oberwesel, PennyMarkt and Rewe in Boppard), and I know they do sell SIM cards. However, Mainz might be a better choice for essentials.

Yes, Rothenburg odT is a little touristy, but I didn't mind. It seems most people spend their time in the Christmas shop or C & P museum. My interests were mainly in the fortification wall (walked most of it) and that was not so crowded.

A less touristy alternative to Rothenburg is Nördlingen, also on the Romantic Road and easily reachable by train from Munich (via Donauwörth). (I linked to the Wikepedia webpage since the town site is only in German.) It has a lot of fachwerk buildings in the old town, an almost complete wall you can walk on, and a church tower you can climb for a nice view of the town, wall, and surrounding area. It sits inside an ancient meteor crater (Ries); our Apollo astronauts trained on the walls of the crater as similar to the moon's craters. There is a museum in town dedicated to the crater.

If you spend a couple of days in Nördlingen, you can make a day trip to Harburg, 15-20 minutes away by train (plus a 1 km walk into town), and visit the authentic castle above the town.

I know you'll be jet-lagged, but would still make an effort to buy what you need at Frankfurt airport so that you can move on to whichever town is actually your first choice.

Nuremberg makes a good base to see these historic towns. An all-zone VGN Tagesticket Plus is 18.70 EUR. That includes using all regional trains and buses in the district after 9 am weekdays (all day weekends) for the 3 of you. Towns in the district are Rothenburg ob der Tauber, Bamberg, Bad Windsheim, Graefenberg, Bayreuth, Iphofen.

Nuremberg is also the closest point to get the DB bus to Prague, 3 hours.

"Why not spend a night in Mainz, a night on the Rhine, then head to Gelnhausen for a night before going to Munich."

Francis78: your group is 2 adults and a toddler, right? I assume that plays into your statement about a trip "without too many two-night stays" on your other thread - and I assume 1 night is worse. Plus, Gelnhausen would constitute a major re-working of your itinerary. You're heading from the Frankfurt/Mainz/Rhine area to Switzerland, then Italy, THEN Munich - right?

With a train ride of several minutes from Bacharach you will find no shortage of interesting things to see and do, plenty to interest most people for several days. Or stay in one of the other towns and visit Bacharach:

Bacharach
Oberwesel
Bingen
Boppard
St. Goar
Other points of interest in the area

Rüdesheim is a ferry crossing away from Bingen.

Note that Rheinfels Castle in St. Goar offers a self-guided castle experience - you can tour it at your own pace. You may wish to catch a taxi up with a toddler unless you'll have a stroller or a child backpack along. It's a fairly steep climb. But it's pretty much that way with the castles.

I would take Laura's tip - stop in at the Rewe Markt at FRA airport to pick up the grocery basics.

Thanks everyone.

1. I'm seriously considering removing Mainz from our itinerary now, given that that's what most people suggest. It was never really about seeing Mainz but more about finding a quick place to recover from jetlag after a 25-hour flight arriving in the evening and pick up essentials like SIM cards, canned food and diapers. We're intending on basing ourselves in Boppard for the Rhine Valley, and I realise that it's further than most other towns from Frankfurt airport, but really my main concern is this: I don't know how big Boppard is, but most tourist towns I've travelled to (not in Europe obviously because I've never been there) are small so those aforementioned essentials might not be available or very expensive. What is Boppard like?

2. I'm also investigating a crazy idea of swapping out our 5 nights in Munich if there is not much to do there (I am still reading to find out more). Our stop before that is Venice, and and after that is Prague. So, it looks like we could break the journey north from Venice, say in Salzburg, for a couple of nights (so we have 1 full day in Salzburg), and then Nuremberg for 3 nights (so we have 2 full days to see the nearby towns). Would we be missing much in Munich itself (we are not beer fans)? To be honest, I don't know enough about Munich itself other than knowing that RS recommends it highly, and I'm more concerned that we'll miss out on our plans to see the Bavarian castles and alps. I realise that it's just a trade-off that boils down to preferences, but advice on that trade-off based on your experience is welcome.

3. We thought that it'd be fun driving for a day in Bavaria, Germany (the rest of our trip is by train/bus) - not in the city. With the cheap train tickets, it'd probably be cheaper by train, and we'd have to get used to driving on the right side of the road (we drive on the left in Australia). Having said that, is there anyone here who would say it's a worthwhile experience?

Thanks very much in advance.

"What is Boppard like?"

It's the largest of the small old-world towns in the Rhine Valley. I have some photos bookmarked

market square
River front promenade
View of Boppard from the river
Boppard ferry for getting across to Marksburg Castle and east bank towns
View from Gedeonseck terrace, a short walk from the top of Boppard's chairlift ride
Boppard's "tea house"
Popular eatery/wine house
Penny Markt for groceries in the old town zone (There's an Edeka Markt on the opposite side of the railway from the old town too.)
Boppard from the air

Boppard is a great base town. I've stayed there on separate occasions for a few days each time. Boppard makes it very easy to get over to the Mosel River as well if you have the time.

"I'm also investigating a crazy idea of swapping out our 5 nights in Munich..."

I like Salzburg and Nuremberg. And Nuremberg is a gateway to Prague as well. Nuremberg is more manageable on foot than Munich, where you'll likely be more or less obliged to take public transport. Like Munich it has a Nazi documentation center, but unlike Munich it sports a real castle with fortifications, the Kaiserburg, adjacent to the old town zone:

http://www.kaiserburg-nuernberg.de/bilder/burg/panorama700.jpg
Old town: http://media.belocal.de/120712/1152x768_0,0c.jpg
Nuremberg sightseeing: https://tourismus.nuernberg.de/en/sightseeing.html
Nuremberg museums: https://tourismus.nuernberg.de/en/sehen-erkunden/museen.html

There is definitely more to see and do in Munich (auto museums, museums of all sorts really, Nymphenburg Palace... but there's plenty in Nuremberg for a couple of days too... so it really depends on what you have your heart set on.

Salzburg is great too. If you can part with Munich and you have 5 nights altogether - and you think you'll regret missing the Alps - then I'd advise 3 nights in Salzburg - with a day trip to Berchtesgaden and the Königssee - and 2 nights in Nuremberg.

Berchtesgaden photos: https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org/forum/index.php?thread/5007-berchtesgaden/&l=2
(Lake) Königssee: http://images.fotocommunity.de/bilder/bayern/bayerische-alpen/jennerblick-zu-watzmann-und-koenigssee-1a243f3e-5ae1-42a3-b7a8-d2366c66aa75.jpg

Bus 840 to Berchtesgaden.

I don't drive in countries where I'm on the wrong side of the car AND on the wrong side of the road. Just don't trust my ingrained instincts to handle that.

What is Boppard like?

As Russ says, it's the largest of the small towns on the middle Rhein, between Bingen and Koblenz. Besides the row of more-towards-top-end hotels facing the river, accommodations in the town are pretty much like the other towns. In 2004, I found a Haus (home with private rooms) for about 25€/night single occupancy, which was less than I could find then in Bacharach and St. Goar. Other than that, I don't think restaurants are any more available in Boppard than the other towns.

About the ferry! The Boppard ferry ends up on the other side of the river in the middle of absolutely NOWHERE. The closest rail station is about a km walk away in Filsen. It's not a long walk but part of it is along the shoulder of a highway. The walk didn't bother me, but it might bother some.

I think your choice of Rhine town depends on how you might be planning a day cruising the river. Check the KD Line timetable to explore possibilities.
http://www.kdrhine.com/rhineschedule.htm
Bacharach to Koblenz is approx 3 hours. I would cruise one way, then return by train after lunch and a look around.

What towns in particular did you have in mind? And what is your proposed route of travel?

Tom, I saw in another thread that Ms. Jo suggested "Erfurt, Fulda, Gelnhausen, or Buedingen", but all of them are far away from my route.

Ms. Jo, thanks for your insight into what's in Gelnhausen because I didn't know anything about it! That will help us make an informed decision. We're just concerned that we'd be too tired when we arrive so Mainz was the easy way out but most people feel that it's not the best idea. We cannot do Gelnhausen after the Rhine Valley because we are heading south to Switzerland. Are there any nice well-preserved historic towns in Bavaria if we stayed in Munich?

Boppard makes it very easy to get over to the Mosel River as well if you have the time.

Thanks Russ. Yes, I was considering that depending on how much time we have left after seeing Rheinfels and Marksburg, and the cruise. If we didn't have time, then we'd just visit Bacharach and some other towns. If we did, we might do the Mosel River cruise - which sections are worth seeing? I've read mixed things about Burg Eltz, so it's not a priority.

For getting "essentials", like SIM cards, the towns of the Rhein gorge might be a little small.

I see a Vodafone store in Boppard on Google maps, but Aldi is quite a distance away (the only store I'm familiar with because it's here in Australia too). Does anyone who's been to Penny Markt or Rewe in Boppard know whether it's big enough to stock some reasonable baby diapers?

I know you'll be jet-lagged, but would still make an effort to buy what you need at Frankfurt airport so that you can move on to whichever town is actually your first choice.

How long does it take typically from the plane landing to boarding the train at Frankfurt airport? I see that there is 1 direct train per hour, so I can imagine having to wait almost an entire hour for the train!

Thanks everyone for your helpful advice.

What time are you expecting to land? I see the Emirates flight at 22:05, which is rather late to get anywhere other than local (Mainz, Frankfurt, etc).
If your arrival is earlier, your lowest cost option will be with regional trains, 21.80 EUR per adult, toddler is free if 5 yo or younger. They all go from the Regionalbahnhof at the airport. Some trains will require a change at Mainz, but it is an easy cross platform connection there (except for the 19:29 departure) . So don't turn your nose up at it if it is the next train.

Does anyone who's been to Penny Markt or Rewe in Boppard know whether it's big enough to stock some reasonable baby diapers? I have not been to that particular Rewe, but their stores are pretty standard. Their larger branches tend to have a fancier wine section, otherwise they stock just about the same merchandise everywhere.

Are there any nice well-preserved historic towns in Bavaria if we stayed in Munich? Yes, although different styles of architecture predominate in southern Bavaria compared to the other towns you listed. Some options from Munich include Freising, Landshut, Passau, Rosenheim, Burghausen or Regensburg. I also think the old center of Erding is very attractive, although not really big enough to justify a stop (although the giant Therme Erding complex is always worth a visit.

I see a Vodafone store in Boppard on Google maps, but Aldi is quite a distance away (the only store I'm familiar with because it's here in Australia too). Does anyone who's been to Penny Markt or Rewe in Boppard know whether it's big enough to stock some reasonable baby diapers?

They might but your best bet is going to a drugstore like DM or Rossmann Drogeriemarkt (similar to Priceline). I see there is a Rossmann Drogeriemarkt in the town center.

DJ

"If we did, we might do the Mosel River cruise - which sections are worth seeing?"

Most of the river is worth seeing but not by boat - it's way too time consuming to bother with cruising on the whole and less dramatic than the Rhine. You'd need several hours to get from Koblenz to Cochem. Suggest you just take the train to one of the towns. Winningen is beautiful and not far upstream from Koblenz. For a longer trip with more scenery take the train all the way to Cochem and visit the town. It's pretty the whole way - just sit on the left going and the right coming back to Koblenz:

http://www.zughalt.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/DB11321.jpg

It's possible to take a short scenic cruise from Cochem to Beilstein and back - an hour each way - but it still takes a lot of time altogether.

Diapers: drug stores sell them. Rossman in Boppard should have them:

https://www.golocal.de/media/672d8f9388422368139af4f1e747cdc4/700/66cfd46d39c0b575.jpg?pid=6591e00c47fa823a9e867879d12daf9b&linkmode=true

https://www.rossmann.de/einkaufsportal/baby-kind/windeln-wickeln.html

Bacharach to Koblenz is approx 3 hours. I would cruise one way, then
return by train

Look carefully at the schedule. The Rhein river flows to the northwest, from Bingen to Koblenz, and the current is very strong. A trip up (to the SE) the river can take 1½ to 2 times as long. You probably want to go with the flow by boat and return against the flow by train.

"Bacharach to Koblenz is approx 3 hours. I would cruise one way, then return by train."

This in fact is WITH the flow. The problem is that you'd be starting in Bacharach and missing all the fine river scenery between Bingen and Bacharach - and there's quite a bit you'll miss.

If you find yourself in Bacharach and want a cruise, take the train south to Bingen and cruise north from there - then return by train.

I would also suggest getting off the boat in St. Goar (which makes the cruise 1.5 hours long) or at least no later than Boppard (2.3 hours.) If you ride all the way to Koblenz, the scenery deteroriates, and you end up at the Koblenz boat dock, which is a long trek to the train station.

I completely agree with Russ. Listen to him. The conventional advice is to ride the boat from, say, Bingen to Boppard or S. G.. If you are sleeping in Boppard you don't need to see Koblenz. Not even the heavily restored and un-evocative castle on the opposite side. In my opinion, the cable car should have been demolished after the Garden Show as had been promised. It does damage the UNESCO scenery, but that's of course, an opinion.

Cologne is a another matter. I'm very fond of it, but I do like museums. And there are a lot of museums in Cologne for those who get tired of canvasses on the wall!

Thanks everyone.

Very useful information, including on the diapers (if they're anything like the Aldi brand we get here in Australia, my son would be happy!).
Russ, appreciate your advice on being able to see the scenery on the trains to the Mosel Valley. I'll investigate taking the train to Cochem and having a look around there.

Some options from Munich include Freising, Landshut, Passau, Rosenheim, Burghausen or Regensburg.

Thanks Tom. Where is the best English website for me to find out more about these places?

Obviously each town is unique, but for a first-time visitor to Germany who doesn't want to rush from one place to another, is a visit to one historic town and spending more time just exploring it a mistake? In other words, if I go to Nuremberg, would I miss much not going to Bamberg? Also, in smaller towns, will we have problems not knowing how to speak German (I know most Germans speak English, but I didn't know whether that was limited to cities)?

What time are you expecting to land? I see the Emirates flight at 22:05, which is rather late to get anywhere other than local (Mainz, Frankfurt, etc).
If your arrival is earlier, your lowest cost option will be with regional trains, 21.80 EUR per adult, toddler is free if 5 yo or younger. They all go from the Regionalbahnhof at the airport. Some trains will require a change at Mainz, but it is an easy cross platform connection there (except for the 19:29 departure) . So don't turn your nose up at it if it is the next train.

We arrive with KLM (transit in AMS) at around 1900, so if we clear the airport in an hour, catch the train without waiting and take a 1.5 hour train to Boppard, we'd arrive after 2130 for a very late dinner (all you parents out there probably think I'm crazy)! Am I correct that the train station I should be looking at is "Frankfurt(M) Flughafen Regionalbf" and not any other station Google maps might suggest? Thanks.

Thanks again.

Some options from Munich include Freising, Landshut, Passau, Rosenheim, Burghausen or Regensburg.
Thanks Tom. Where is the best English website for me to find out more about these places?

The best source on the internet when you want to know all about a given location: Wikipedia. And if you want to see lots of pictures, the German-language version usually includes far more than the English version.

As previously suggested Nuremberg would be a good option in place of Munich as a base to explore smaller historic towns in Germany.
Wurzburg, Bamberg, Regensberg are all less than an hour by a frequent train service. The German Tourism Office even dedicates a route from Frankfurt to Munich including these places and others.

http://www.germany.travel/en-mobile/towns-cities-culture/towns-cities/nuremberg.html

http://www.germany.travel/en-mobile/barrier-free-travel/barrier-free-travel/travel-ideas/wuerzburg.html

http://www.germany.travel/en-mobile/towns-cities-culture/jewish-traveler/smaller-cities/bamberg.html

http://www.germany.travel/en-mobile/towns-cities-culture/towns-cities/regensburg.html

tonfromleiden, Sam, and djp_syd have recommended Nuremberg as a base town for you. You asked, "for a first-time visitor to Germany who doesn't want to rush from one place to another, is a visit to one historic town and spending more time just exploring it a mistake? In other words, if I go to Nuremberg, would I miss much not going to Bamberg?"

With a toddler I'm sure your outings cannot be taken lightly. You probably want any outings you take to be fairly short and uncomplicated. Nuremberg is smaller than Munich of course but still large enough that your location will need to be well strategized. Hopefully you'll find a place near what you want to see and also near the station for outings. Bamberg is surely worthwhile but may not be that easy an outing as the station location means a long walk or bus ride into the old town. From N'berg you might find a smaller town like Iphofen, which Sam suggested, a much easier place to visit. It's gorgeous and just 45 minutes by direct train from Nuremberg. Who cares if it's not in RS's book?

http://tramino.s3.amazonaws.com/s/iphofen/685626/stadtplan-iphofen-english.pdf

Sam also suggested Bad Windsheim, I presume for the excellent open-land-museum there. This place and its 500-600+-year-old buildings really showcase local history. It should be pretty easy to visit too because it's family-oriented. They rent out wagons for wee ones that can't walk the whole path. Restrooms and eateries are on site as well as in town.

Map of the museum: http://freilandmuseum.de/fileadmin/bilder/C_Museumsplan2010_2MB_20110701153508.jpg

You can get there in less than 1 hour by train (1 change in Neustadt, a small station.) I suggest you inquire about an English-text guide to the museum when you arrive as written signage there is just in German as I recall.

"Also, in smaller towns, will we have problems not knowing how to speak German (I know most Germans speak English, but I didn't know whether that was limited to cities)?"

I've run into so many international travelers from Japan and elsewhere who speak no German and less English than you and still don't have much trouble getting around in small German towns - especially places where they get the occasional foreign tourist. You'll be OK. But yes, there is less English in the small towns than in the cities - but probably still more in Germany than in comparable small towns in other countries like France or Italy.

Someone above mentioned the Tagesticket Plus for train outings from Nuremberg. It's one of the best train deals anywhere. And if you buy it for a Saturday outing, it's good on Sunday too:

http://www.vgn.de/en/dayticket?&Edition=en&p=tagesticket-plus

Munich IMO is worthwhile, but skippable. A stay in Nuremberg will be different - but equally rewarding, I'm sure.

Although I am obviously in the minority, I support your original idea of heading directly to Mainz from the airport. 25 hours is a long time for anyone - especially a child - to travel and Mainz has several excellent hotels within a five minute walk of the train station. The next morning you can venture out to purchase your "essentials" and do little relaxed sightseeing of the Dom (one of the three great Romanesque cathedrals in the Rhineland), the Chagall Windows at St. Stephens Church, or possibly the Guggenheim Museum. Then the next morning, fully rested, you can head out on your planned itinerary, refreshed to the point where you can fully enjoy the experiences you will have.

Also, in smaller towns, will we have problems not knowing how to speak German

Simply don't worry. You will always find somebody who will be glad to help you out. Just turn to younger people and not to 70+ babushkas. ;)

Jack, Guggenheim Museum? Did you mean the Gutenberg Museum.

Also, in smaller towns, will we have problems not knowing how to speak German

Don't worry. Sometimes even knowing how to speak German doesn't help you in the deepest regions of Oberpfalz!

DJ

Still it is better to address them in German than not doing so. I would.