Help with Plan B itinerary

First, a sanity check...

When exactly are you proposing this? Are you aware that travel is currently restricted, borders are closed, there's no end date in sight (speculation is things will remain closed at least through sometime in July, very likely longer)? There are few flights going. The entire tourist industry is going to take a long time to recover. Also, you are talking about traveling with seniors, who are the most vulnerable...

Most reasonable people are not expecting things to return to anything remotely resembling "normal" this year, with next year being in doubt, too. If you are planning for summer 2021, that's not a safe bet but at least seems possible (only book refundable).

That said, be careful of trying to overdo things with just 2.5 weeks. You have a long list of places, especially if you are flying in and out of London (not efficient at all, given that your trip is not to the UK...). All the place you mention are nice and worth some time (though also closed to tourists for the foreseeable future). If it were me, I'd plan to concentrate on fewer places. You don't want a car in most of these places, almost all are wells served by rail.

As a starting point, look at the suggested itineraries in Explore Europe link at upper left.

Plan sounds good for 2022.
2021 is simply not going to happen- period. Especially if it involves a cruise line.

Sorry if I was not clear. The trip would be in place of the cruise which is at the end of July as I stated in the original post. We have plane tickets so if we decide not to do the cruise or if the cruise gets cancelled, we still want to use the air tickets IF it is safe to go then. I have no idea what travel will be like three months from now but I want to be prepared with a Plan B regardless. That is why I said I am only booking accommodations that can be canceled for free. Our cruise was out of Southampton which is why we are flying into London - I can't change that and we have already spent a lot of time in London. We were arriving a few days early and had already purchased Eurostar tickets to go to Bruges and back prior to the beginning of the cruise.

Just so you know, this is not our first trip to Europe. We have gone on 3 separate month-long trips with kids in tow every time and have covered a lot of ground all over Europe. We are comfortable with train travel and love it. Because we have to slow down some with my parents (they joined us for second 2 weeks last year), we sometimes need to use a van if we can because it is easier to transport them around. They will not be able to run to catch a tight train connection, etc.

Apparently, I may be insane because every time I have posted any itinerary questions on this site, my sanity has been questioned! I will keep on enjoying my insane trips...

Hello,

It is always fun to travel plan but I think at this point we have to be realistic. Many of the flights are cancelling until the end of June/July at this point. Many countries are extending lockdowns and have travel restrictions that are pretty "tight" I believe it will be some time when/if we have clarification when we can resume leisure travel. The world of traveling will be forever changed for some time after this.

We had a May trip, rescheduled for September and now questioning myself to pull the trigger and just cancel.

End of July 2020 does not seem realistic to me. With elderly family members along, even more so.
July 2021 seems optimistic, possible but still iffy. Good luck.

Ya, your are correct. Your sanity is being question or at least your rationality. I would suggest that any travel in Europe during July is very iffy. You have a whole of factors that have no answers. To travel anywhere especially with some older folks, you one of two things -- an effective treatment for the virus and/or a vaccine. In three months an effective treatment might be available and a vaccine is mostly like out of the question. Even with an effective treatment do you want to run the risk of infection and a possible hospital stay in Europe? If your answer to that question is yes, then your plan perfect sense. For most of here, that is not an acceptable possibility.

We are sitting on reservations for an Oct trip to Italy. Currently we view that as highly unlikely.

OK - let's pretend this trip is in July 2023. Does anyone have any responses related to my questions?

Better yet. Why don't you tell us why you think that travel in Europe will be a strong possibility by the end of July. The doors are open and tourists are welcomed. You obviously believe that is a high probability.

OK - let's pretend this trip is in July 2023. Does anyone have any responses related to my questions?

Well, yes. As I posted above:

That said, be careful of trying to overdo things with just 2.5 weeks. You have a long list of places, especially if you are flying in and out of London (not efficient at all, given that your trip is not to the UK...). All the place you mention are nice and worth some time (though also closed to tourists for the foreseeable future). If it were me, I'd plan to concentrate on fewer places.

You later indicated your own preference for rail but with elderly family along, need to switch to a van sometimes. Fair enough, we all make adjustments as needed. That said, most of the places you mention (mostly big cities) do not lend themselves easily to driving a large vehicle (eg a van or other vehicle that will comfortably hold a large group). If you need to do that, plan to go even slower.

The only portion of your original proposed trip that lends itself reasonably well to travel by personal vehicle (at least in my experience) would be along the Rhine and to Rothenburg (all are also well served by rail, but if you have your own wheels it's a decent area for driving). All that adds up, to me, in the suggestion that you try to limit the geographic target area a bit more. The flights in/out of London part is going to be "costly" in terms of burning multiple days getting to/from there, as it seems the focus of your trip is more on Germany/Benelux. While 2.5 weeks is enough time to do a trip like that by rail, with a large group and tending to the needs of family members with mobility issues, with 2.5 weeks I'd probably try to stick to either Germany or Benelux, not try and do both.

You are talking about a group of 7 (I think) which, as you probably know, only moves at the speed of its slowest member, and is slowed down every time someone gets cranky, moody, argumentative, etc. With just a family of 5 (presumably with three kids in tow who can be "motivated" to get moving when they might feel like acting up, traveling efficiently by rail...you can cover a lot more ground in a day than you can in your proposed group of 7 (who may not be as easily managed). So, my suggestion to be careful not to overdo the geographic scope stands. As does my input that all of the places on your list are nice and worthwhile stops (yes, even Luxembourg, which I found delightful and under-appreciated). But...given your circumstances, I'm not sure that you can "do it all" so my advice would be to prioritize - would you rather see Luxembourg (there's more there to see than the capital city), the Mosel, or more of Germany? Gotta pick and choose...

Hope that's helpful.

I absolutely do not think it is a strong possibility (I never said that?). What I said was I am confident that our cruise will not be happening and so I wanted to have a Plan B that can also be cancelled in the event that it is not able to happen either. I guess not only all travel is cancelled now but also all travel planning is cancelled now? I apologize for the inconvenience I have caused by asking my questions. Stay safe all!

Thanks for your help, David. I only meant car travel in the Rhine and Rothenburg areas. We would not try to drive a car in the big cities. That would be train travel.

The flight into London was because our cruise was out of Southampton, England and the air tickets were only $300 round trip each. We are fine spending more to train (we already have tickets) or fly if needed.

On last year’s trip we actually found it better in some cases to have a driver take us places vs buying 7 train tickets. We hired a driver take us from the Dolomites in Italy to Lake Bled, Slovenia! It was cheaper, shorter, and more direct. Worked great with my parents as they did not have to touch their luggage - it was door to door service.

Our kids are all teens now so they are pretty easy to deal with. We all get cranky are some point though!

I am more just wondering a route to take if there are reasons I don’t know about. I have Rick’s Germany book so that has been helpful.

I won't address the virus issue, since that horse has been beaten pretty well.
Regardless of when you visit the places that you mentioned in Europe, I have some tips.

Bruges is great, but I would not spend three days there. I have been to Bruges twice, once in 1982 and then in 2014. Both times, I spend a full day there and was happy with that.

Brussels is not super, but you could do a day there.

Amsterdam, 3 days, it about right, unless you visit other places in Netherlands, like the Hague or the Zyder Zee.

From Amsterdam, you could head down the Rhine and visit Cologne. I recommend one day, the famous cathedral is the main site.

The Rhine valley has much to see, as does the Mosel valley. Some of my favorite places are Rudesheim, Germany, Mainz, Heidelberg and Strasbourg, France. A bit west of those places you find Luxembourg, Lux city and the small town of Vianden on the Germany border is great. Closeby, you find Trier, an ancient Roman city. You could spend a week doing these places, but probably need 10 days. Rothenberg ob der Tauber is a great little walled Medieval city, on the Romantic Road, that runs from Wurzburg down to Fussen/Garmisch near Austria.

https://www.romanticroadgermany.com
"The first visitors were friends and families of the American soldiers stationed in the large bases in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg but the idea of the trail from Würzburg to Füssen soon became wildly popular.

It's not too hard to see the reason for the popularity - despite the modern roots of the idea, the tour combines the historic cities of Würzburg and Augsburg with the three medieval walled towns of Rothenburg ob der Tauber, Dinkelsbühl and Nördlingen, and then finishes off with the tourist highlights of Neuschwanstein Castle and the Alps.

These days coach parties from all over the world can be seen at the most popular stops along the way, the route signs along the way are in German and Japanese, and in 2010 the Romantic Road celebrated its 60th birthday."

Once you do the road, head up to Munich for a few days.

If you do all this, it will take about 3 weeks.

I won't address the virus issue, since that horse has been beaten
pretty well.

Yeah... not only that, it was pushed over a cliff.

Seahunt- my first thought/concern is the size of the group. If my math is correct you will be a party of 7. That is really pushing it in terms of passengers. Add in luggage and you may be out of vehicle space. Renting 2 vans?

I’m not an expert on Germany and will leave that to others. But my first thought is 2 (maybe 3) home bases and use local guides/tour companies for day trips out to cities/sites beyond your home base city.

Im trying to think of activities we enjoyed in the places Ive been.
AMS is one of our favorite cities. We rent bikes while there and this makes it really fun (me, hubby, 3 kids now 12, 15, 17). However, it is also very stressful and I wouldn't recommend it unless you are experienced cyclists, and even then, this is like cycling in the middle of traffic. Not only are there bikes but scooters. Second however, you can take RS' suggested ride out along the Amstel. We did this from our lodging, but you could Google search for a bike rental (MacBikes or BlackBike, say) near the Amstel and just head out. The trick is to stay on the path along the river. Any time you veer away, get back to thew river as soon as you are able. You can ride forever, or you can just ride out for an hour, see some countryside just outside of AMS (cows, windmills), and then turn around. One year we rode as far out as a lake and my son stripped to his underwear and went for a swim, and then we rode back (others were swimming too. There's a beach. Some were also in their skivvies). When we got back we headed to the rooftop of NEMO museum. This is a great kid's science museum, and the kids still enjoyed exploring it for awhile while DH and I sat no the deck drinking a beer from the bar. The rooftop can be accessed without paying to enter the museum. The deck is cambered, and has fountains, and looks out over the whole harbor and train station.
Van Gogh museum is small enough to enjoy (you can see the whole thing in two hours)
Foodhallen is an energetic place to eat
(Or you could do a day trip to Zanse Schans for biking in a less stressful environment and see windmills and more traditional dutch village-y stuff
From there I have taken a train to Bacharach, on the Rheine. We rented bikes there one day and rode along the river to a ferry that takes you to the other side. WE locked bikes, took the ferry over, then caught a train for one or two stops (can't remember) to Marksburg castle. Hiked up the hill from the train station to that, took a tour, and then returned following the same route in reverse. That was a fun day. We also stayed in Cochem, in the Mosel valley and biked along the river one day, and hiked the longer route to Rothenburg castle from the train station another. Beautiful hike.

I can’t offer Germany/Luxembourg suggestions, but as Belgium is right up with the Netherlands as a bicycling mecca, definitely consider a ride or two. We rented in Brussels and took bikes on the train to Bruges (aka Brugge), but we were doing our own 2-week bike tour from there. The country’s pretty flat, but a stiff headwind coming off the North Sea our first day made it feel like we were climbing a mountain road. The rest of the days were really good cycling. Even a short rental bike ride out of Bruges (like the pleasant cruise north to Damme and back) will give you a true Belgian/Flemish activity experience.

Expect fries served on the side with every meal, even if you main dish is pasta.

A trip south to Ypres (aka Ieper), with its World War I/Peace Museum and other sights, would be worth a day, if you could spare an extra day, or take that day from Bruges. Hope you all can go sooner, rather than much later!

While 2.5 weeks is enough time to do a trip like that by rail, with a
large group and tending to the needs of family members with mobility
issues, with 2.5 weeks I'd probably try to stick to either Germany or
Benelux, not try and do both.

German Railways provide extensive local train service, and the Rhine/Mosel Valleys and Luxembourg are no exception.

Map of region w/ train lines/stations

So for short visits like yours, and with your general preference for trains, renting a van in this region is probably unnecessary. With a well-chosen base town or two, seven can get around very easily without a van. One tour company I'm aware of offers 1-2-week vacation rentals in the area... and includes a rail pass option... something they would not include if local train travel were impractical. (Not that you need a rail pass - cheap local day passes are the best way to go for groups.)

Getting around on foot inside the smaller, old-world Rhine and Mosel towns is quite easy. Trier and Koblenz are larger towns where the walking might be a stretch for the oldsters. But you seem to have ideas on letting them do things at their own pace. Still, I'd look for accommodations in the smaller towns, which tend to have better atmosphere.

Of the several Rhine/Mosel towns I've stayed in, I think either Boppard or Cochem would be a good base town for your needs. Either one can be visited from the other.

Boppard

Cochem

For more efficient train outings you will want to choose accommodations that lie within reasonable walking distance of the station. For castle visits - Rheinfels in St. Goar, Marksburg in Braubach, Eltz in the woods outside Moselkern - you might want to schedule a taxi locally for anyone troubled by steep uphill walks. Reichsburg Castle in Cochem (Mosel) is an uphill walk too but normally offers a shuttle bus from town. You can also catch a bus to the Bundesbankbunker there.

Other interesting/fun things might include...

(in Boppard) - https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g198627-d3306006-Reviews-Sesselbahn_in_Boppard-Boppard_Rhineland_Palatinate.html

(near top of the lift, great views) - https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g198627-d5021388-Reviews-Restaurant_GedeonsEck-Boppard_Rhineland_Palatinate.html

(also in Boppard) -
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g198627-d1812925-Reviews-Mittelrhein_Klettersteig-Boppard_Rhineland_Palatinate.html

(in Oberwesel) - https://www.oberwesel.de/en/wandern0/stadtmauerrundweg/

(near Cochem, walkable from top of Cochem's chairlift, includes falconry exhibition) - https://www.klotti.de/en/

You will find in-town wineries, river cruising and biking opportunities just about everywhere.

Back to the quoted advice from David: I think that makes good sense. I don't think you need to include quite everything you have in mind. Because countries are making their own plans to deal with Covid, you might be more successful by having two back-up plans - one for Benelux only (not that these 3 will act uniformly!!) and one for Germany only - in addition to your original plan.