HELP! Germany/Austria Itinerary

You’re definitely bouncing around too much. My general rule of thumb is to never stay less than 2 night in a single place. It’s very tiring to change hotels every night.

Also, I realize you likely already have your airline tickets purchased but why not fly directly to Munich?

Thank you for your response! Is there something on my itinerary that you would leave out altogether/change? I really wanted to get to experience the Alps which is why I have a few nights in the Tirol region. Do you feel that I could get a similar enough experience staying in Salzburg and skip Tirol or vice versa.

As for flying into Munich that's something I'm wishing I had done now. I found a really great deal for a round trip to and from Frankfurt and jumped on it because I was afraid I would miss out. Probably jumped the gun.

Thanks again!

Regarding your itinerary, since you only have 8 full days, I'd see if you could narrow it down to 2 overnight locations (3 max). 5 will be exhausting, trust me. I have never done Heidelberg, but I just recently visited Munich, Salzburg, and Neuschwanstein. If you are leaving from Munich, Neuschwanstein will take the entire day - it's about 2 1/2 hours each way by train - you will not be able to fit in a visit to Dachau in the same day. You could take a day trip to Salzburg from Munich, though - it's just 90 minutes by train, has a very compact old city, and you can at least get a flavor of what it has to offer. So if you did 4 nights in Munich, Day 1 = travel from Frankfurt, Day 2 = Dachau & other Munich sites, Day 3 = Neuschwanstein, Day 4 = Salzburg, and Day 5 you could move on to your second location (or do an additional full day in Munich, because there is a lot to see/do depending on your interests).

I agree with staying in fewer locations. I'd skip Munich and stay longer in Salzburg. The city is lovely and there are also a number of day tours you could take in the surrounding area. SOM, salt mines, etc. Your Day 10 flight will mean you have to be at the airport 2-3 hours prior to departure, so that will influence where you are the night before.

Can you talk about the night train from Ellmau to somewhere in the Black Forest? I'm not aware of one. If you know of one which takes 6:52 you must know all about it. Where to? From Ellmau?

I see a number of red flags in this plan. First one is one night stops are not a good idea, you waste too much time travelling. Minimum 2 nights, 3 better.

Day 1 -Frankfurt airport to Munich is not a commute, it is an inter-city trip. As you will be flying in you cannot predict when you will emerge from the airport, so you cannot buy tickets in advance. You will have to pay full price, € 113,50 per person. Discounted price is € 19.90, slight difference!
"Bike tour - Explore Munich" - will you have energy for this? Jet lag, time difference (where are you flying from)?

Day 2 • Dachau concentration camp tour early morning? • Neuschwanstein Castle?
You can't do both in a full day. Neuschwanstein is a long way south of Munich (2 hours by train + bus). Dachau is a northern suburb of Munich

Day 5 • Overnight train to Black Forest (6 hours, 52 mins)
Where have you got these times from? Ellmau doesn't have a station, you need a bus (or a taxi) to the nearest station. You don't say where in the Black Forest you are going to, so I can't check.
There are very few night trains running, and definitely none that go from the Austrian Tirol to anywhere near the Black Forest.

Day 9 • Overnight in Heidelberg OR Train to Frankfurt (1 hour 10 mins)
Day 10 • Arrive at airport • Flight departs 9:20 am
How long before the flight do you need to be at the airport. This depends on how far you are flying. Assume 2 hours (it may be 3). Arrive Frankfurt airport latest 07:20.
Heidelberg Hbf depart 06:02, Frankfurt(M) Flughafen arrive 07:06
If it is 3 hours before, the first train on the day is 04:13, arrive 05:12. Could you make that?

Overall, much too much on most days.

Here are some things to think about. Have you purchased your plane tickets yet? If not consider flying into Munich and home from Frankfurt. Or vise versa.

I would pick the things that you would regret not seeing on this trip and save the others for another trip. Decide what is important to you to see. It looks like the most interesting things according to your list are near to Munich/Salzburg. Maybe concentrate your time there and leave the Black Forest for another trip. I know there is always the fear of missing out. I get it with every trip too. But my hubby calms me down and makes me focus on what I would regret most about not seeing.

Good luck and have fun! Remember you can choose to go back :)

Thank you so much again everyone for your responses - The overnight train that I am looking at leaves from Kufstein (which I believe is one of the closest train stations to Ellmau, about 20 min drive) and arrives in Gengenbach which I've read is a good base for exploration of Black Forest. Please let me know if this seems incorrect to anyone.

I also appreciate the input on my day trips and what I was considering fitting in (For some reason I thought Neuschwanstein was much closer). I'll probably leave that off altogether. Any more opinions on more days in Munich vs Salzburg? A friend recently told me that although it was lovely, she was not overly thrilled with Salzburg and would spend more time in Munich and do a day trip as someone else suggested.

Finally, something that I've been struggling with is the decision of whether or not to skip Tirol and have areas near Salzburg be our "Alps" experience (hiking, biking). I know it would simplify things if I could get rid of a destination but I've just been looking at hotels and experiences on the Wilder Kaiser site and it seems like a really beautiful place and experience. Is there a way to get a similar experience such as that while staying in Salzburg?

With your short time frame I'd leave out the Black Forest altogether. The Black Forest is fine, it's lovely, but it's not worth trekking across southern Germany with the limited time you have. Stick to Bavaria - it's more scenic, easily accessible, and you're already there.

I'd rework your entire trip to focus largely on Bavaria for the outdoors. If you want stuff off the beaten path, look into stuff around the Lech river, but you could have a perfectly lovely trip focusing on Munich/Salzburg/Tirol with only 3 hotels that would be way more enjoyable than what you're currently planning.

I think Germany and Austria are spectacular. Your itinerary certainly catches a lot of it, but I fear with all the moving, it will be hard to enjoy.

We would like a good mix of German and Austrian charm and history,
nature, and bigger city vibe.

I see mention of Neuschwanstein, Hohenzollern Castle, and Heidelberg... is part of the charm you are seeking castles?

A few thoughts:

• I tend to think in terms of nights (rather than days) when I think about trips to Europe. It helps me be more focused on how much I'm moving with lodging. You will have 9 nights. With a 9:20 departure out of Frankfurt, I think it's hard not to spend your last night in or very close to Frankfurt. Is your flight out of Frankfurt back to the the US or to a connecting airport in Europe? If it goes back to the US, the recommended arrival time by most carriers is 3 hours before departure. That gives you 8 nights. That's two to three bases at most.

• It sounds like you can't change the Frankfurt flights. That's okay. No regrets. Plan the best trip with what you have.

• I personally would not prioritize the Black Forest on a first trip to
  Germany... especially after being in the Alps... it may be a bit of a
  let down after the Alps. (Rick recommends going Black Forest to Alps
  if including both in a trip for this reason... I rearranged a trip to
  account for Rick's suggestion and am glad I did).

• If you are committed to the Wilder Kaiser, I don't think it's impossible to include. If I were planning that trip, I would consider a stop at a place you have not mentioned: Lindau. It's a gorgeous little town on Bodensee, a lake bordered by Germany, Switzerland, and Austria. It's about a 4-hour train ride (with transfers) from Frankfurt and about a 4 to 5 hour train + bus ride (with transfers) from Wilder Kaiser. It would be a good place to wander on the first day after a flight. The next day could be used for a day trip to Meersburg, which is also on the lake and has a medieval castle, or (if you like flowers and will be traveling spring to fall) Insel Mainau. From there to Wilder Kaiser and then on to Munich (with day trip to Salzburg, if desired) -- or go in the opposite direction. I would check to make sure Wilder Kaiser is "doable" without a car. Those towns look awfully small to have much in the way of taxis. Perhaps busses run?

• If you wanted to tighten up the circuit and include Heidelberg (instead of Lindau), you could look at stopping somewhere in Southern Bavaria such as Garmisch-Partenkirchen, which offers outdoor things like the Zugspitze, Partnach Gorge (Partnachklamm), or Hell's Valley Gorge (Höllentalkklam) with a side trip to Mittenwald or some other cute Bavarian town (then on to Munich).

• Füssen can be a nature stop in addition to a castle stop. I went to the castle once as a day trip, but I want to make it back to the area to check out some of the hiking in the area (like the Lech Gorge mentioned by Sarah).

Feel free to ask more questions!

As I looked at transportation to Ellmau again, it actually takes quite a bit of work to get there! Not sure that I would be willing to do that, even for its picturesque alpine pastures and hiking.

I can't see any overnight itinerary recommended on bahn.com from Kufstein to Gegenbach. If any other site suggested one I suspect it might involve getting off a train somewhere at one or two o'clock when the service ends and getting the first one in the morning, which I would never recommend.

I think Dave has made some great suggestions but I would recommend renting a car in Salzburg to drive to the Wilder Kaiser area to give you more flexibility on hiking, biking and exploring that area. Salzburg is easy to see in one day and since you are going in the summer I would stay out of the big cities and get in the mountains. I also think you should skip the Black Forest.

Jumping on the bandwagon of "skip the Black forest" folks. The name sounds mythical, but it's...well...a hilly forested area, no match for, say, the Catskills.