Getting a discount on German trains

in case you haven't heard of him

https://www.seat61.com/train-travel-in-germany.htm

What are you doing once you arrive back in Koblenz?
When you say Rothenburg to Wurzburg (2-way), Rothenburg to Bamberg (2-way), and Koblenz to Cochem (2-way), are these day trips (r/t same day)?

We are flying into Frankfurt next week and will be using Wurzburg as our base in Bavaria.
We will get Bayern tickets to visit Rothenburg and Bamberg on consecutive days. The only drawbacks to the Bayern ticket is that it is valid after 9am and only for Regional trains. I don't think either will be an issue for us.
The Bayern ticket is 29 Euro for one and an extra 10 Euros for a second person.
We purchased our longer train rides to get the discount price for when we leave Wurzburg for Cochem and our other two trips.
I have downloaded the DB navigator app on my phone and found it easy to use.
Since our plane could easily be late, or I could estimate incorrectly how long to wait for luggage and customs, we will buy our train from Frankfurt Airport to Wurzburg.
It looks like we are going to several of the same locations.
We will be using Cochem as a base to visit Burg Eltz and to visit Trier on a separate day.
We can use the VRM ticket (Verkehrsverbund Rhine-Mosel) for going to Trier.

@marymac91, Trier is not within the VRM.

chris: I would go with D-Tix at €58 p.p. for all your trips. But do this with Würzburg as a base town for outings to Bamberg and Rothenburg. Works MUCH better than using R'burg as a base! At the DB site click on the D-tickt journey button as you search so that you get only regional train trips.

The D-tickets are ideal for Day 1. Hop on any regional train to Würzburg that day from the regionalbahnhof station. To avoid bus trips on this route deselect buses under the "mode of transport" option.

You seem to be making Rothenburg your hub. I don't know if I would do this myself because it's a long way from most places, not as the crow flies but on the railway line. Perhaps a little better for your other Bavarian stops, but couldn't you instead take Bamburg as a base? Bamburg has charm in spades and you likely won't have to change trains so much. Rothenburg to Koblenz is particularly bad - 4-5 hour train journey, multiple trains, some walking between trains with luggage. Find a better way of doing this. Maybe your leg to Koblenz should be after a night in Würzburg. It's still quite a distance but not quite as bad.

Lavandula

Russ and I were cross-posting - same message, don't use Rothenburg as your hub, it's unviable.

Lavandula

What are you doing once you arrive back in Koblenz?

We are joining the Rick Steves tour so have no further use for any transportation :)

When you say Rothenburg to Wurzburg (2-way), Rothenburg to Bamberg
(2-way), and Koblenz to Cochem (2-way), are these day trips (r/t same
day)?

Yes. We are basing ourselves in Rothenburg. Not the best place for a base, but already decided, committed, and paid for. Hence the reason for considering the car option (separate thread). We've heard that Rothenburg is overwhelmed with tourists during the day, but quietens down at night, which is why we want to stay there.

Bamberg is a longer trip from FRA and as a base forces a longer trip to R'burg than W'burg.

If you do decide on the Deutschland Ticket, it can be a headache to buy. Here is the easy way with a 3 EUR service charge.

Option 2, buy from europe.tranzer.com - easy, small booking fee
You can also buy a Deutschland Ticket for a specific month in English at europe.tranzer.com/ticket-product/248 without a subscription, just a one-off payment with a credit card, Apple Pay or Google Pay, with a trivial booking fee.
There's no need to remember to cancel anything afterwards, no risk of missing your subscription cancel-by date and accidentally paying for two months. They will email you later asking if you want to pay for another month when your current month expires, if you do you'll have to make another payment, if you don't reply they assume you don't want to continue and won't take any further payment.

in case you haven't heard of him

https://www.seat61.com/train-travel-in-germany.htm

Love the site! We used it extensively when planning our trip from Milan to Tirano, then several trips around Switzerland earlier this year.

Have a look at that leg Rothenburg odT - Koblenz on Deutsche Bahn to get a good idea of what you will be facing. 4-5 changes of trains and in some cases there will be up to 10 min walking with bags. If you are over 65 I think this would be very undesirable. If you have already committed to Rothenburg, at this point I would be looking at the car. It's still hours of driving on an autobahn (and if you have never done this, the message is stick to the right), but I think better than that last day by train.

Lavandula

You can get there in only 3 changes, 2 if you are willing to take the bus to Ansbach. There is a direct train from Wuerzburg to Koblenz at 10:24 am.

Have a look at that leg Rothenburg odT - Koblenz on Deutsche Bahn to
get a good idea of what you will be facing. 4-5 changes of trains and
in some cases there will be up to 10 min walking with bags.

Let's be accurate... You can find journeys - at 8:05, 9:05, 10:05, and every hour after that - with 3 changes of train for this trip using the regional trains only (Deutschland Ticket.)

Of course, this fact does not necessarily make it a desirable train trip. The very first train trip from FRA airport to Rothenburg isn't especially desirable either. It is a SHORTER travel time, but you still have 3 changes of train (regional trains only.)

Alternatively, the ICE train itinerary from FRA to R'burg is a little better but only a little... a bit faster, but... you are still stuck with regional trains between Würzburg and Rothenburg... and you will still have 2 changes of train minimum... and the flexpreis will be around €45 each for this route as far as Würzburg, where you must get off to change to regional trains. (If you have the D'ticket on hand for everything else, that means you don't have to pay for the regional trains needed for the final W'burg > Rothenburg legs of this journey - only for FRA > Würzburg.) So is €90 worth saving yourselves 1 change of train and some time on that day? That's your call. I'd just do regional all the way and spend the €90 on something else.

All that said... This is the trip that you (Chris) have chosen to make despite the other more desirable alternatives that have been suggested here and on the other thread. And it is by no means an impossible trip. Time after time on this forum I encounter travel plans to Rothenburg that start from FRA's Regionalbahnhof station or Rhine Valley towns like Bacharach, itineraries that have been pre-built around hotel commitments without any reference to the transportation needed. These travelers have unwittingly committed to a long train ride with multiple changes; however, they have still managed to make make this train trek, and you will too.

My advice is to spend a little time in the shopping area right next to the Regionalbahnhof before boarding. Get some sandwiches, snacks, groceries, and have an ongoing picnic on the train while you watch for your next stop.

If Rick's guidebook were a great guidebook, he'd tone down the enthusiasm he has generated for Rothenburg and/or caution his followers NOT to conjure up an itinerary that targets Rothenburg immediately after arrival at FRA or MUC - or to base themselves instead in more easily-accessible Würzburg. There are so many nice old-world towns to visit or to stay on one night that are MUCH closer to FRA and that have EASY rail access.

Have a look at that leg Rothenburg odT - Koblenz on Deutsche Bahn to
get a good idea of what you will be facing. 4-5 changes of trains and
in some cases there will be up to 10 min walking with bags. If you are
over 65 I think this would be very undesirable.

I hike over 4 miles a day, 7 days a week, and actually relish the thought of having to walk and carry luggage after sitting on a plane for 12 hours! No problem there. Fear of missing a connection is a bigger concern. Where exactly is the '10 mins of walking with bags' going to occur?

If you have already committed to Rothenburg, at this point I would be
looking at the car. It's still hours of driving on an autobahn (and if
you have never done this, the message is stick to the right), but I
think better than that last day by train.

I'm quite comfortable with driving. My biggest 'fear', or 'pet peeve', is parking. Parking can be hard to find, and as I mentioned elsewhere, having to download / install parking apps is an annoyance. But I figured it out all over the UK a couple of years ago and can probably figure it out in Germany. I just really enjoy taking trains these days so want to give that option a good chance.

This is the trip that you (Chris) have chosen to make despite the
other more desirable alternatives that have been suggested here and on
the other thread.

With respect, you make it sound like I could just flip a switch and change venues. we're only 3 weeks out from the trip, and we have some particular hotel needs, so I would not expect to be able to just switch hotels easily at this point (we struggled to find what we needed in July). We've also researched and made reservations at restaurants, and more. So I think we are unavoidably committed to Ro'burg at this point.

Chris - Yours is an October visit; the stream of visitors around Germany will be more like a trickle than the kind of torrent that happens in July. In your shoes, Russ would not hesitate to flip that switch. In light of my own travel history in Germany and the current availability of rooms 3 weeks out, I am quite confident that I could find at least a handful of accommodations choices that would be suitable for Russ +1 for three nights in the alternative locations I have suggested, choices that would ease transport and pocketbook concerns. This is why I look at staying in Rothenburg (where there likely is LESS availability) as a "choice." That does not mean I - or YOU - could find accommodations - or seats at specific dining tables (something I know nothing about whatsoever in Germany! We always dine on the fly there) - that would meet YOUR particular requirements. This will be your 3-day trip, and you are entirely in charge of prioritizing the overnight, room, food and transport elements as you see fit. I hope you find your time enjoyable, whatever choices you make.

I'm quite comfortable with driving. My biggest 'fear', or 'pet peeve', is parking. Parking can be hard to find, and as I mentioned >elsewhere, having to download / install parking apps is an annoyance. But I figured it out all over the UK a couple of years ago and >can probably figure it out in Germany. I just really enjoy taking trains these days so want to give that option a good chance.

The autobahn isn't like driving in the UK. There is a skill to it if you've never driven on one. There are three lanes: the rightmost lane is 80km/h, the middle about 150 - 160km/h and the leftmost, limitless, but in reality around 200km/h. It is mainly better cars that can drive fast speeds. There are some autobahns which are speed limited but most autobahns are not. The principle is stick to the right unless you are overtaking. Where I live (not Germany) this principle is not strictly adhered to. However, in Germany, if you don't observe this with discipline, you will cause a traffic accident at high speed. There are accidents all the time, and roadworks, and both cause Staus (traffic jams). A Stau can last for tens of kilometres. Often you will have no warning that a Stau is coming, and if you see one up ahead you must approach with your hazard lights flashing so people behind know you are stopping. You can be stopped for hours. The other alarming thing is the Geisterfahrer (ghost driver), a driver who is driving the wrong way on the autobahn. This seems to happen a bit at night. I have never encountered a Geisterfahrer but you hear about them all the time in traffic reports on the radio. Anyway, that ends my 'crash' course :) . I wish you luck whether you catch the train or drive, either way you will have quite a journey.

Lavandula

In light of my own travel history in Germany and the current availability of rooms 3 weeks out, I am quite confident that I could find at least a handful of accommodations choices that would be suitable for Russ +1 for three nights in the alternative locations I have suggested, choices that would ease transport and pocketbook concerns.

It's not that simple. We are joining the Rick Steves Tour in Koblenz for 2 weeks after Ro'burg, but then we are traveling onwards to Slovenia, and then to Barcelona. We then have a Japan trip to plan for, and a UK trip, and a Scandinavia trip. We're still finalizing details of the Slovenia portion. ONCE we get Slovenia organized, we MAY have the time to re-visit the Ro'burg situation; I'm certainly open to the possibility but we have to finish at least a 'first pass' at all the other locations before we can spend the time revisiting already-decided destinations. As for restaurants - we don't need to have reservations at every restaurant but we have not had good success picking restaurants 'on the fly' on our travels. We like to, as a minimum, read several reviews and have a prioritized list of preferred places to choose from.

The autobahn isn't like driving in the UK. There is a skill to it if you've never driven on one. There are three lanes: the rightmost lane is 80km/h, the middle about 150 - 160km/h and the leftmost, limitless, but in reality around 200km/h. It is mainly better cars that can drive fast speeds. There are some autobahns which are speed limited but most autobahns are not.

Is this still true, as of 2025? I grew up and learned to drive in UK, in the 60s/70s, and - while there was a nominal upper-limit on speed, everyone drove fast and the lane discipline was severe; you never hung around in the 'fast lane'! But now, in the UK, the traffic is incredibly dense, and the entire motorway system seems governed by 'average speed' zones, forcing you to remain at 40, 50, or 60 mph for what seems like hours at a time! It does lighten up as you get further north (eg the M6 going up to Scotland) but the south/central area (London up through Manchester/Leeds) is just one giant (incredibly stressful) crawl.

I did drive in Germany way back (early 80s) and it was intense back then - I remember exactly what you are describing (we drove from UK to Italy through France and back through Germany and Netherlands ... all in a right-hand-drive car!). Has Germany somehow managed to remain relatively uncongested on its autobahns?

No worries, chris. My most recent post wasn't intended to sway you into making changes you just can't make. You were still unhappy with your options, so I just wanted to share how it looks to me and why, as my perspective is really all I have to share here. Again, best wishes for a fine trip.

Has Germany somehow managed to remain relatively uncongested on its autobahns?

That is a BIG no.

It of course depends where and when - Germany is a big place.

I can assure you from frequent recent experience that the southern third of the country including Bayern, B-W, Hesse, Saarland, R-P, the stau is alive and well and kicking. Construction everywhere. Some national speed limit areas but lots of controlled speed too. Plenty of variable speeds too.

Now I don't often go in the north, or the east above Bayern so things may be different there.

More and more of the construction areas have radar, and there is more radar on the B- roads too.

My favourite unhappy places are the A5, A7, A8, A99, (did I mention the A5), A81, A6 with its perennial construction (worse than the M6 in England and that's going some), the bottom of A95, anything around Mannheim, A3, anything in the Ruhr.

Other places more enjoyable.

YMMV

I'm sure several of you will be pleased (and amused!) to hear, we finally wrapped up some other planning activities and did a complete re-structuring of our visit and are now basing ourselves in Wurzburg for 3 nights. We will have 2.5 days there; day 1 (partial) we will explore Wurzburg, then day 2 (full) we will go to Rothenburg and day 3 (full) we will go to Bamberg, before heading to Koblenz on day 4, dropping our luggage at the station lockers and then taking the train to Cochem and back before checking into our Koblenz hotel.

We've also committed to making the journey by train, since the journeys all become relatively easy by train - almost all non-stops with just one single-transfer (FRA-w'burg direct, 90 mins, ICE; w'burg to r'burg, 1 change, 70 mins, regional; w'burg to b'berg direct, 60 mins, regional; w/burg to koblenz direct, 167 mins, ICE). This does mean taking ICE trains from FRA to w'burg, and from w'burg to koblenz, but that's fine - about 70 Euros each extra (on top of the regional pass) giving us an extra hour or two in our destinations - places we're unlikely to ever visit again.

It was hard to find a suitable hotel in Wurzburg at short notice; nothing came up on websites at the price, room-category, and locations we wanted, but I started calling hotels directly and was able to get a room that is walking distance from the station and walking distance to the downtown area. As an aside, I've had three experiences in the past few months where making a direct call to a hotel front desk has yielded a far better room than using the hotel's website. Luckily everyone speaks English so I was able to discuss room availability at length.

So now, I need to get back to the subject of the thread - getting the tickets. There are several good tips in this thread on how to get the DB ticket (regional), so my only remaining question is - how to get the ICE tickets for the FRA-W'burg and W'burg-Koblenz journeys. The DB site indicates our chosen ICE trains as "We expect high demand for your journey. We recommend reserving a seat". Since we can't guarantee our arrival time in FRA, I'm assuming we can't possibly make a reservation ahead of time - unless we make multiple and waste money. But I assume we could make a reservation on the W'burg to Koblenz journey ahead of time.

Can we buy the actual ICE tickets now, through the DB site, to get that out of the way (to save time on arrival), and then perhaps make a seat reservation using the 'app' on my phone while waiting for baggage in the airport - assuming a seat reservation made an hour ahead of departure is better than no seat reservation at all? EDIT TO ADD - just occurred to me; are seat reservations cancelable? I could make a reservation on the 'most likely' train, and then cancel / change it on arrival if necessary?

Regarding Frankfurt Airport to Wurzburg if you look on DB there are regular regional trains from Frankfurt Sud and also every two or three hours from Frankfurt HbF.
And there is the S Bahn (S8) in from the airport to both the HbF and the SudBf.
I fully accept that will take longer and require a change of train. But it seems to me to be one way round the ICE conundrum.

I'm far from inexperienced in continental rail travel, albeit not in Frankfurt and it's one solution I would look at.

Seat reservations are not cancellable. Since it is only 5.50 EUR per seat, some people (business types mainly) might reserve seats on 3 different trains just to make sure they have a variety of trains to take if they get their business completed early.

Würzburg: I'd just get on the regional trains at FRA and go.

The ICEs are as likely to be late as they are on time. You cannot count on arriving in Würzburg at the scheduled time.

Regional options, random date in the morning; trains leave FRA Regionalbahnhof every hour... examples...

9:04 - 11:21, 21 minutes to change trains in Hanau. Same journey at 11:04 and 13:04.

10:00 - 12:21, 21 minutes to change trains at Frankfurt Hbf. Same journey at 12:00 and 14:00.

I would opt for the change at Hanau if possible; DB says it's a 10-minute walk between platforms if you change at Frankfurt Hbf.

The Deutschland Ticket covers this trip. Get on, sit wherever you find a seat.

No D-Ticket? Day Ticket For Germany: €59/2 adults. Buy at station if you like. Good for ANY train trips this day you wish, just like the D-ticket..

Regional options, random date in the morning; trains leave FRA Regionalbahnhof every hour... examples...
9:04 - 11:21, 21 minutes to change trains in Hanau. Same journey at 11:04 and 13:04.
10:00 - 12:21, 21 minutes to change trains at Frankfurt Hbf. Same journey at 12:00 and 14:00.

OK, I went to the DB site, and I went to the 'mode of transport' option, and selected 'local transport only'. This disabled High Speed, Inter-city, and Fast trains. I put in Friday Oct 3, 9:00am, start at Frankfurt Flughafen, Destination Wurzburg Hbf.

I got a bunch of journeys, all including a bus at the start:
https://imgur.com/HeCaB8D

Expanding the first entry (9:09), I see there's a 21 minute bus ride to 'Sudbahnhof, Frankfurt' then a 5 minute walk to 'Frankfurt (Main) Sud', for the 9:36 to Wurzburg, arriving Wurzburg at 11:21.

What am I doing wrong in terms of entering my selection criteria? I'm obviously doing something wrong because I'm getting a bus journey in every option.

I de-selected 'buses' in the mode of transport filter, but it still gave me bus options (though different times!).

I selected 'Deutschland Ticket only' and STILL got the bus journeys. So I'm really puzzled.

And what is so bad about the ICE option other than it costs more? Are they SIGNIFICANTLY more unreliable? Are they likely to be unreliable around noon-time (outside of rush-hour), which is our likely travel time?

You chose the wrong origin station - you wanted Frankfurt (M) Flughafen Regionalbf.
There is nothing wrong with the ICE, except you can't sensibly choose one until you land, as your ticket is only for a specific train, so you will pay full price.
In theory the ICE could also be booked full.
Even if you bought for a specific regional train now that day (you are actually using your D ticket), you could use any train that day.
It all comes down to what you are willing to pay, and risk on all ICE's being full.

If you want to be on an ICE that's fine. If they are then default on the day to a regional as they can't sell out. They start at the airport so you will get a seat.

Germany's 'Deutschlandticket' price rises again
https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-deutschlandticket-price-rises-again/a-74052095

Transportation ministers of Germany's 16 federal states said on Thursday that the cost of the popular monthly public transit ticket, known as Deutschlandticket, would be raised to €63 ($74) starting in January 2026.
...
The organization noted that the price of the ticket is on its second hike. It had already been increased from €49 to €58 at the beginning of 2025, which prompted a million customers, especially younger people, to cancel their subscriptions.

The fact that you still get buses may be because of track engineering work between the airport and Frankfurt Hbf. I am checking.

Yes, they are showing a replacement bus on October 3. S8E to Frankfurt Suedbahnhof. There is this note, which I used Google Translate to show.

Partial service disruptions occur, particularly at night, between Hanau and Offenbach and between Offenbach and Frankfurt.
On some days, there will be further changes and partial disruptions between Wiesbaden and Kelsterbach, with various replacement bus routes operating instead.
The changes are included in the RMV timetable information and can be found in the attached construction site timetable.
The replacement bus stops are not always located in the immediate vicinity of the platforms.
Information on the locations of the bus stops can be found at www.bahnhof.de and in the linked construction site timetable.
Bicycles cannot be transported on the replacement buses.
This is due to construction work in the Offenbach S-Bahn tunnel, work on the Flörsheim electronic interlocking system, and other maintenance work.

You chose the wrong origin station - you wanted Frankfurt (M) Flughafen Regionalbf.

I just went back to the DB site, and when I enter the search criteria 'Frankfurt Flug', There are three good matches : Frankfurt Flughafen, Frankfurt Flughafen Fernbf, and Frankfurt Flughafen Regionalbf at the top of the list:
https://imgur.com/tFR5ds4

I chose the Regionalbf entry.

Further on the selection box, I de-selected 'show fastest connections', and I selected 'Deutschland Ticket connections only':
Under 'mode of transport', I reset all filters in case I was choosing a problematic entry.
https://imgur.com/msv3S1U

Even after all that, I STILL get a list of results that all include buses at the start!
https://imgur.com/fe4CaN6

I'll try a different computer / different browser to see if there's something 'stuck' in terms of cookies, etc.

There is nothing wrong with the ICE, except you can't sensibly choose one until you land, as your ticket is only for a specific train, so you will pay full price.

Aren't tickets and seat reservations two separate entities? If I choose the 'Flexpreis' ticket, it says I can use it on any train:
https://imgur.com/A4Ibjvi

I don't mind paying 44 Euros for the ticket. The seat reservation is the challenge, however. We land at 9-ish, so a seat reservation on a circa-noon train might be a worthwhile investment.

EDIT TO ADD: I went onto a different computer (Mac) and different browser (Safari) and tried the same search; got the same 'all buses' results. I then changed the date from Friday Oct 3 to Friday Sept 26, and to Friday Oct 10, and STILL got the 'all buses' results.

Chris:

When you withhold your date from us, we use random dates for advice.

Now that I see your actual date... the bus S8E (replacement bus) appears for some options. This is a S-Bahn replacement bus used during construction periods.

I see an 8:44 HLB train option from the Regionalbahnhof. All the others are replacement bus options. Take one of those if you can't ride the 8:44 train. That's what the Germans are doing on that date, and you can too. No reservations needed.

See my previous post. If you go with the direct ICE train, the Flexpreis is 89 EUR for 2, which is not bad. You may want to buy seat reservations with the app when you get your luggage, Or as I said before, you could cover all the bases by buying seat reservations now for all 3 trains, 9:35, 10:01, 10:35. That will cost you another 33 EUR.

Even after all that, I STILL get a list of results that all include buses at the start!

The bus shows up because the connection via Frankfurt Süd (with the Deutschlandticket) is faster than with the S-Bahn via the main station: FRA dep 9:09 - Würzburg arr 11:21.

Try it out: Set your desired arrival time in Würzburg to 11:21 and set Frankfurt Hbf as a stopover with a transfer time of 10 minutes (that's the minimum): you'll see that you have to leave the airport at 8:45 to reach Würzburg at 11:21.

What's wrong with riding the bus for a few minutes?

I suggest you simply break the trip into two parts and do the search. regional only / deselect buses. I found TRAINS available when I did. I used the HANAU Hbf station for the change of train for the reason I explained previously:

Frankfurt (M) Flughafen Regionalbahnhof > Hanau Hbf: train trips...

9:30 - 10:10 (S8) or
9:44 - 10:23 (HLB) or
10:00 - 10:36 (S8) or
10:44 - 11:23 (HLB)

Hanau Hbf > Würzburg Hbf: train trips...

10:58 - 12:21
11:58 - 13:21

It's always iffy with flights. You know the schedule but you have no idea what time you will make it to the train station!

So if you can catch the 9:44 or 10:00 at the airport, the 10:58 from Hanau is available for the trip to W'burg.

Then you have the 10:44 option at the airport as a back up, with the 11:58 train for the trip to Würzburg.

I did not check later back-up options for you, but maybe you can do that now.

There is no reason to concern yourself about putting the two separate travel legs into a ticket because you do not need to schedule a trip or book a ticket. You just get get yourself to the station with your D-Ticket in hand on October 3, get on one of these train options and ride with the D-Ticket.

"I don't mind paying 44 Euros for the ticket."

That 10:01 ICE train costs €44.50 each flex price. €89 / 2 = $105. vs. free. Plus the reservation fees. It saves you a bit of time and one change. It's not a choice I'd make, but if you don't mind, and you think it offers the best solution, do that. You should also check later travel options so that you have back-up travel times for this trip. Remember to use the other (Fernbahnhof) station when you walk to the station.

We land circa 9:30am. We've occasionally breezed through customs/immigration/baggage in an hour, but for planning purposes, I don't want to assume we'll be ready to board any train until at least 11am or noon (I only used 9am in the above searches to try to match your results). When I plug in 11am, the next 4 trains (hourly 11:09 to 14:09) all show the X61 Bus. Looking at the details of the 11:09 train, the bus takes 21 minutes to reach its destination, then there is a 5 minute walk, to make a connection that is 6 minutes long -

https://imgur.com/cqxjT2w

Is that connection optimistic, given we will have luggage, etc?

Looking further at the ICE options, I see the 'Flexpreis' for Oct 3, as of today, is 44.50. This gives me 'unrestricted choice of trains'. I presume that means, by purchasing 2 weeks ahead, I'm getting a flexible ticket price of 44.50. If I change the date to Friday Sept 26 (to get an idea of how prices change over time), the ICE trains have a 'flexpreis' of 61.60; and if I change the date to Tuesday Sept 23 (4 days from now), the flexpreis' is 54.50 ... so lower than the price a few days later! Does this simply reflect a sophisticated pricing algorithm based on demand projections?

One option I'm considering is, we buy a flexpreis ticket 'soon', to lock in a decent price, and then make 5 Euro seat reservation on the noon (12:01) departure and if all goes well at the airport, that's the train we get.

What happens if you have a 'flexpreis' ticket (but no reservation) and the train is 'full' - do they allow standing on the trains? There are non-stop ICE trains at 12:01, 12:35, 13:35, 14:35. Could you be denied boarding on all of these due to them being full?

Here's what I've found from 11:00 on for the regional-only trains, doing as I suggested - breaking the journey into two parts with Hanau as the first destination, Würzburg as the second. Search w/ only local transport + deselect buses, Fr Oct. 3. There are options every 30 minutes.

11:00 - 11:37 FRA Regionalbahnhof > Hanau Hbf S8.... then... 11:58 RE train to Würzburg RE (Regionalexpress)
11:30 - 12:10 FRA Regionalbahnhof > Hanau Hbf S8... then... 12:58 RE train to Würzburg RE
12:00 - 12:36 FRA Regionalbahnhof > Hanau Hbf S8... then... 12:58 RE train to Würzburg RE

Looks to me like the "discount on German trains" in your thread title will be more than a discount this way. How can you beat a discount of 100%?

The bus shows up because the connection via Frankfurt Süd (with the Deutschlandticket) is faster than with the S-Bahn via the main station: FRA dep 9:09 - Würzburg arr 11:21.

Try it out: Set your desired arrival time in Würzburg to 11:21 and set Frankfurt Hbf as a stopover with a transfer time of 10 minutes (that's the minimum): you'll see that you have to leave the airport at 8:45 to reach Würzburg at 11:21.

I see the option to depart FRA at 9:09, arr W'burg at 21. The bus is the X61. At other times, the bus is the 'S8E'. So - are these 'airport busses', with decent luggage space? The connection time shown for that journey is 6 minutes, with a 5 minute walk. That seems tight. If we miss the 9:36, are there reasonably frequent trains after that? (I know we'll be running later, but using your numbers to keep the discussion simple).

What's wrong with riding the bus for a few minutes?

Nothing wrong with riding the bus in itself, as long as it's an 'airport-compatible' bus with room for 2 rollers and 2 backpacks, and the time from bus station to train station is manageable in the 6 minute allowed, and it's certainly more attractive now because its a single train journey, not the 2 transfers we were looking at previously.

I presume what we are doing here is taking an 'airport bus' from the airport to the main Frankfurt rail station (Frankfurt M Sud), and from there, a regional train from there to Wurzburg. This is instead of taking the regional trains directly from the Airport. It seems counter-intuitive that it's better to take a bus from the airport than a regional train, if we are going to end up in the regional train network to Wurzburg. But maybe that's because there are line repairs going on?

What is the 'S-bahn', by the way? It's not featuring in the above discussion specifically, but it did show up in other results.

The S-Bahn is a commuter train. It's part of the regional train family... That's what the S8 train is in the schedules I provided in my last post.

It is probably easier to ride the train than a bus, as you seem to be thinking. So again, the trains are available on the schedule. You can look them up but I've already posted them for you. Check them at your leisure.

I would choose the train + train sequence via Hanau.

(posted by User Russ):

Here's what I've found from 11:00 on for the regional-only trains, doing as I suggested - breaking the journey into two parts with Hanau as the first destination, Würzburg as the second. Search w/ only local transport + deselect buses, Fr Oct. 3. There are options every 30 minutes.

11:00 - 11:37 FRA Regionalbahnhof > Hanau Hbf S8.... then... 11:58 RE train to Würzburg RE (Regionalexpress)

11:30 - 12:10 FRA Regionalbahnhof > Hanau Hbf S8... then... 12:58 RE train to Würzburg RE

12:00 - 12:36 FRA Regionalbahnhof > Hanau Hbf S8... then... 12:58 RE train to Würzburg RE

Looks to me like the "discount on German trains" in your thread title will be more than a discount this way. How can you beat a discount of 100%?

Looks like an option to consider. Thanks for the details. There's still the issue of this involving one transfer and a total duration of 2hr 27 mins, vs no transfers and a total duration of 1hr 31mins (with ICE) - almost an hour saved, and no transfer.

(posted by user Sam):

See my previous post. If you go with the direct ICE train, the Flexpreis is 89 EUR for 2, which is not bad. You may want to buy seat reservations with the app when you get your luggage, Or as I said before, you could cover all the bases by buying seat reservations now for all 3 trains, 9:35, 10:01, 10:35. That will cost you another 33 EUR.

A slight variation on this would be to buy the Flexpreis ticket now, and reserve a seat on the 12:01 train (the most likely option). If all goes well, we get that train. If we land early and are through immigration/baggage/etc in time for an earlier train, book another seat reservation the moment luggage arrives. And similarly, if we are delayed, book another seat reservation for a later train the moment we are in predictable territory.

I asked this question upthread, but it probably got lost in the noise:
What happens if you have a 'flexpreis' ticket (but no reservation) and the train is 'full' - do they allow standing on the trains? There are non-stop ICE trains at 12:01, 12:35, 13:35, 14:35. Could you be denied boarding on all of these due to them being full? We are willing to stand for 90 minutes if it means getting to our destination quickly.

We'll probably make a decision tomorrow. Thanks again to everyone for their input.

What happens if you have a 'flexpreis' ticket (but no reservation) and the train is 'full' - do they allow standing on the trains?

Yes you can stand on trains with no available seats. I've done it. So have a lot of others. The 12:01 train is not "nonstop" to Wurzburg. It also stops at Frankfurt Hbf and Hanau. It is 1 1/2 hours from FRA to Wurzburg, which is not the worst. There is a restaurant car and you can hang out there drinking beer an pretend you are in a crowded pub. That particular train originates at Dortmund and terminates at Vienna.

(Posted by user Sam):

Yes you can stand on trains with no available seats. I've done it. So have a lot of others.

Great! Thanks for the info.

Regarding the actual purchase of the Deutschland Ticket, I've read this forum and also 'The man in seat 61' site ( https://www.seat61.com/train-travel-in-germany.htm#Deutschlandticket ), and the general consensus seems to be to use the 'Tranzer' site - https://europe.tranzer.com/ticket-product/248 . I presume this is still the best advice (an old thread from last year in the Rick Steves forum referenced the "Munich regional transit app"- MVV - but 'seat 61' does not reference that) - https://www.mvv-muenchen.de/ticketshop-preise/zeitkarten-abos/deutschland-ticket-d-ticket/index.html

Another practical point about the transfer at Hanau lost in all the noise above- not one that concerns me, but might others.

You transfer at Hanau from Track 5 or 7, to Track 103. Looking at the station plan, all transfers appear to be by steps, that is to say no elevators appear to exist. Now there is plenty of time to make the transfer, and train frequency means that if you miss a train due to late running and thus time being tight you don't have long to wait for the next one. But it is one element in the equation.

My own calculation would be clearly on the basis of I can cope with the transfer down steps, and a longer journey time on the regional trains as it is already paid for (and I am more likely to get a seat), as opposed to paying extra for a direct and faster service. But there are multiple ways to view that.

While the station plan at Hanau does show an elevator at Track 1/2 platform only, the station guide also shows them for Track 102/103 and 104/106 platforms.
https://www.bahnhof.de/en/hanau-hbf/elevator

There's still the issue of this involving one transfer and a total
duration of 2hr 27 mins, vs no transfers and a total duration of 1hr
31mins (with ICE) - almost an hour saved, and no transfer.

Yes, I know, I gave you the info. I also know your question was about saving money, so added trip time is the "price" that comes with avoiding the $76 fare... + res. fees for that trip if you want to sit... + possibly $115 or so with res. fees to be guaranteed a seat on earlier trains. On paper, anyway...

Sadly, comparing schedules and time saved/lost is often useless these days. ICE schedules are mere WISHES for how the trains might run. Today, that 12:01 ICE 27 actually arrived 13 minutes late in W'burg. The 11:35 ICE today was 16 min. late, so its passengers were promised 56 minutes of tim savings but received only 40 for the tickets they bought. The ICE 27 currently runs late (5 mins or more) 90% of the time, with day-to-day top-end delays on its run from Dortmund to Vienna averaging 47 minutes. (On Aug.28 it was at one point 158 minutes late on its way to Vienna!)

If you have some kind of deadline or appointment that drives your concern about saving time as welI as money... arrival day is just plain messy for many reasons, and the ICEs are unlikely to keep their schedule promises. The regional train / D-Ticket option will at least keep the promise that you will pay nothing for your trip.

I presume what we are doing here is taking an 'airport bus' from the airport to the main Frankfurt rail station (Frankfurt M Sud), and from there, a regional train from there to Wurzburg.

I saw this ^^^ in your post overnight (11:33pm in the UK, 3:33pm Calif time)

I wonder if you may be confused by a German word with a different meaning in English.

In English a Main station would be interpreted the most important station in the area.

In this case Main is used to refer to the Main river and the official name of the city Frankfurt am Main (literally Frankfurt on the Main River) to distinguish from a much smaller station on the Polish border, Frankfurt an der Oder, in the DB as Frankfurt (Oder) on the Oder river.

The most major station in a city is known as Hauptbahnhof, abbreviated as Hbf. Or main station in English.

So don't fall into that trap....

"Frankfurt M Sud" is in long form Frankfurt am Main Süd, süd (with an umlaut) means south which is a physically closer station to the airport - on the same side of the river as the airport - than the much larger Hbf across the river.

hope that helps

Nothing wrong with riding the bus in itself, as long as it's an 'airport-compatible' bus with room for 2 rollers and 2 backpacks, and the time from bus station to train station is manageable in the 6 minute allowed

The X61 bus is an express bus, but not a plushy coach. You can simply keep your suitcases with you; no one will mind if they are on the floor.

However on 3th of October, due to construction work some S8 trains run directly from the airport to Frankfurt Süd. So you could reach the train RE 54 dep. Frankfurt Süd at 11:36 to Würzburg by using the S8 departing at 11:00 from FRA Regionalbahnhof (same travel time as the connection suggested above via Hanau but avoiding the long S-Bahn ride. BTW, the terminus of that train is Bamberg). This gives you 22 minutes to change trains. Do a separate search for the connection FRA - Frankfurt South to see all the options.

This is instead of taking the regional trains directly from the Airport. It seems counter-intuitive that it's better to take a bus from the airport than a regional train, if we are going to end up in the regional train network to Wurzburg.

RE 54/55 trains to Würzburg regularly depart from Frankfurt Central Station and never from the airport, and you can catch them at Frankfurt Süd. And under normal operation conditions, between FRA and Frankfurt Süd you always have to take the Bus (apart from some regional trains).

In English a Main station would be interpreted the most important station in the area.

In this case Main is used to refer to the Main river and the official name of the city Frankfurt am Main (literally Frankfurt on the Main River) to distinguish from a much smaller station on the Polish border, Frankfurt an der Oder, in the DB as Frankfurt (Oder) on the Oder river.

The most major station in a city is known as Hauptbahnhof, abbreviated as Hbf. Or main station in English.

I was aware that 'Main' in this context referred to the city name (based on the river), but clarifications are never wasted as these threads live on forever thanks to Google.

What I wasn't clear on was the status of 'Frankfurt Sud'. I lived in London for 6 years and there, we had Euston (which served N/NW), Kings Cross (N/NE), Paddington (W) and Waterloo (S) (and several more). All four were considered equally 'main' in many ways (so all "Hauptbahnhofs"!), and I was wondering if Frankfurt Sud was one of Frankfurt's major stations, presumably servicing 'points south'. From what you are saying here, Frankfurt Sud is more of a regional station, located to the south of the city.

Going off-topic here, but is London somewhat unique in having so many 'major' railway stations, compared to most European cities? It does seem like Frankfurt Hbf is the only major station in Frankfurt.

Paris is another city with several "Main" stations. Older cities that were the first to industrialize and build railroads. The city centers were already too built up to centralize stations, so the stations were built away from the center and only serviced their own regional rail lines.

Moscow is another great example. Sam doesn't give the real reason for London's situation. The underlying reason in London is that each terminal was built by a different private company.
Nowhere is that dafter than London Victoria. On the face of it one station but for many years two wholly separate adjacent stations each with a complex history.

Until pretty recently Vienna was another example (until the 'new' Vienna Hbf) and Budapest is still another good example, also Lisbon.

Basel, Switzerland has 3 stations, each predominantly serving a different country.

Basel Bad Bahnhof is the end of the DB line from Germany..

Basel SBB is the main line station for the SBB, the Swiss National railways. Through trains from France and Germany stop there too.

And then there is the old SNCF station for trains from France. Adjacent to the SBB station, and now given platform numbers in the 30s, linked by the old immigration and customs passages, now used only for TER trains terminating at Basel (Bâle in French).

The Swiss don't use the Hauptbahnhof expression much except in Zürich and it is abbreviated HB rather than Hbf.

Two main stations in NYC too - the huge and ostentatious Grand Central and the very useful Penn Station which I prefer.

Leipzig once had a Prussian, a Saxon, and a Bavarian railway station. The first two were merged into the main station by the Nazis in 1934, but are still easy to distinguish architecturally and by the two different coats of arms above the two main portals. The Bavarian station was downgraded to a local transport station. :(

Very interesting about Leipzig Hbf, a huge trunk line station, which I've not seen a few years pre-pandemic.

I shall check for that different coat of arms, very intriguing, the next time passing through, usually from Berlin Hbf.

Update after the fact …

We ended up buying the ‘Flexpreis’ (full fare, flexible) ticket, in advance online, for the non-stop ICE service from Frankfurt Flughafen Fernbf to Wurzburg so we could take any train on the day of our arrival. We also purchased a seat reservation on the 12:01 service, as that was the one we could rely on based on a 9:20 arrival and allowing for delays.

We ended up landing an hour early, and even with the slow non-EU immigration line, we were out of the airport by around 9:30 and we headed straight to the fernbf (everything well sign-posted). I used the DB navigator app to try to get another seat reservation on an earlier train, but the app said all trains were full. So we decided to wing it (willing to stand if necessary). We ended up boarding the 10:01 train, and easily found a seat. The train did fill up when it passed through Frankfurt Main Hauptbahnhof, but we didn’t have to give up our seats. We arrived at Wurzburg around 11:30am and were checked into our hotel room by just after noon; out wandering the streets of Wurzburg by 1pm!

So we achieved our main goal, which was to get as much time in Wurzburg as possible that first day.

Today we took a day-trip to Rothenburg; absolutely gorgeous town, even in the rain, and worth every moment! We took the regional trains. The central area was ‘busy’, but not in any way overcrowded (I can imagine it’s overwhelmed with tourists in the peak season). And when I walked the wall, I had several periods of time where I was totally alone. Jet lag caught up with us and we weren’t able to wait for the late dinner reservation we’d made at a preferred restaurant, so cancelled the reservation and just wandered into one that was along the way, and it turned out great!

The DB Navigator was absolutly great to work with.