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Germany in late November through early December

Hello,
My wife are planning our (delayed) honeymoon to Germany. I've been to Germany before, but its been well over a decade. However, I have never been in winter.

The best flights we have found are arriving in Frankfurt and out of Berlin. We are leaving on 11/22 and returning 12/10, so roughly 17 days in country.

We plan to roughly follow Rick's suggested itinerary. However, in many ways, a lot of it looks more geared towards summer travel, which makes sense. Does anyone have suggestions about places that are musts, places to add, and places that will be busts due to weather? We are both skiers, but we do not want this to make up a large portion of our trip. However, we want to include other outdoor activities where possible.
Cheers,

Posted by
8889 posts

Christmas markets start last weekend in November.
Virtually every German town big and small has them. Two top ones are Strasbourg and Nuremberg, if you could include one that would be very romantic.

Remember the days are short, and the driving can get difficult. Frankfurt 1st December, sunrise 08:02, sunset 16:25 . Dark at 5pm.
At that time of year I would recommend train.

If you want skiing, this is a little too early. It doesn't start until mid December, and in recent years pre-Christmas skiing has been increasingly bad. And you would have to go a long way south to the Alps, southern Bavaria, Austria or Switzerland.

Posted by
6589 posts

I would avoid these Rick-destinations: Bacharach, Rothenburg, Baden-Baden, Neuschwanstein and the Black Forest.

The weather could be bad wherever you go, so stick mostly to cities where you can spend time indoors if needed - perhaps 1-2 mega-places like Berlin and Munich, but smaller cities can work too (Bamberg, Regensburg, Würzburg, Erfurt, Bremen and Mainz come to mind; most of these have some well-preserved old-town areas, museums, cathedrals, and indoor sights.) Places like Bacharach tend to be shuttered tight and offer very little in December.

Do some research on Christmas markets as you research destinations.

It's your honeymoon. Book a castle for a night or two. Try Auf Schönberg in Oberwesel (Rhine) or Burg Colmberg (Franconia.) There are plenty of others as well.

Posted by
1477 posts

This is one of our favorite times to visit Germany due to the atmosphere of the Christmas Markets (more so than the goods themselves). Our favorite is Regensburg and its Romantic Market.

https://mcchelsea.smugmug.com/Advent-2010/Regensburg/
https://mcchelsea.smugmug.com/Advent-2010/Thurn-and-Taxis-Palace-Market/

We also liked Rothenburg, which can be very attractive this time of year and not as crowded as in the high season. The much maligned tourist shops give over to selling Christmas items, often a bit different than you find in the open air markets.

https://mcchelsea.smugmug.com/Advent-2010/Rothenburg-ob-der-Tauber/
https://mcchelsea.smugmug.com/Germany-2008/Rothenburg-ob-der-Tauber-2008/

Great time to visit Germany.

Posted by
94 posts

A couple years ago, we flew to Munich on thanksgiving day. We spent two weeks there sightseeing and visiting Christmas markets. We visited Nuremberg, Regensburg, Passau, Salzburg, and Munich. We enjoyed the markets in Nuremberg, Regensburg, and Salzburg the most. The weather was cool, but we only saw a light snow one day on our drive from Salzburg to Munich. Didn't see the sun much either, as it was cloudy most days. Had a fun time. The atmosphere of the markets was most enjoyable. Although it does get darker earlier, you'll have more time to enjoy the Christmas lights at night! Enjoy wherever you decide to go.

Posted by
19052 posts

I spent a day in Baden-Baden and was not impressed enough to ever go back.

Posted by
1419 posts

Christmas markets are wonderful! I disagree with Russ. Rothenburg is awesome in December! I would recommend Nuremburg, Wurzburg, Frieburg and Munich. If you are flying out of Berlin then try and make a stop in Erfurt on the way.

Posted by
3049 posts

Rick's itinerary is crap. Start from scratch and ignore what you've read (and some of what you'll read here from acolytes who only follow his suggestions and ignore that there are other ways).

Into Frankfurt and out of Berlin is good. Frankfurt's market is nothing special but the city is worth a couple nights (one full day) at least, more if you're into art and Jewish history. It's a good place to recover from jetlag as well.

I know I'll be accused of bias, but I've been all over Germany for Christmas markets, and my suggestion is to take the ICE (book early) south to Stuttgart for 2 nights to do the Stuttgart, Esslingen, and Ludwigsburg markets. Stuttgart's market is the finest "big city" contiguous market I've seen, but the city is not touristy. It's home to the excellent Mercedes Benz museum even if you don't like cars, it's well worth a visit. Esslingen has a famous "middle ages" market that is my favorite in all of Germany. Ludwigsburg exists thanks to a Baroque palace and it's market is elegant with great crafts, italian meats, and the special "feuerzangenboelwe" a special alcoholoic punch that must be experienced. Base in any city - they're all only 15 minutes from each other by train.

From there, Munich is just over 2 hours (Ulm also has a decent market and a separate middle ages market if you want more of that scene and is on the way). Bamberg is glorious although it's market isn't special, but there's also Nurnmberg which is the home of "German Christmas" and has one of the largest markets. You could chose another stop on the way to Berlin (I haven't spent much time in East Germany so I don't feel qualified to comment) and end in Berlin with over 50 unique and radically different Christmas Markets, it's the perfect tend to this trip.

I'd largely forget about "outdoor" activities though, unless hiking through brown and grey forests in slush is your idea of a good time. Maybe check out some Alpine activities near Munich in Bavaria. That's your best bet for nice winter scenery. Aside from the mountains, things will be dreary, that's why we have Christmas markets to enjoy!

Sorry, just read that you're skiers. My German skier friends don't have a high regard of German slopes - most tend to go to Austria. However for a 17 day trip I wouldn't bother with the timing. A Bavarian ski resort should be just fine, just don't expect it to be amazing.

Posted by
1477 posts

First, I also think that Stuttgart is the most enjoyable big city market that I have visited, especially when coupled with the Medieval Market at Esslingen on the Neckar.

"Rick's itinerary is crap. Start from scratch and ignore what you've read (and some of what you'll read here from acolytes who only follow his suggestions and ignore that there are other ways)."

I have a little more trouble digesting this suggestion. I too have lived in Germany - 4 locations over 6 years. Rick has omitted places that I love: Regensburg being a prime example. That does not mean that the places that Rick includes are crap.

I have a healthy respect for anyone who has visited Germany and is willing to share their views. I live in Utah but am hardly an expert on every corner of the state. I am sure that there are Germans that know more about many places in Utah, even after a single visit. If I ever pretend to be the "expert" even about my current home state of Utah, you are all invited to have a chuckle at my expense.

We all have worthwhile experiences to share.

Posted by
868 posts

It's funny that people complain about Rick, but most of the tips here are about Southern Germany, basically the only part of Germany Rick covers in depth. The OP however flies out of Berlin, which is in the opposite direction. If the OP follows the suggestions here the itinerary would probably start with 12 days in Southern Germany, followed by a train ride to Berlin, with a short stopover in Erfurt. Have a look on a map. That's silly.

Regarding Christmas markets:
It's not known outside Germany, but many German Christmas traditions, and most of the things you can buy on a typical Christmas market, originate from the mountainous parts of Central Germany, the area between Erfurt (Thuringian Forest) and Dresden (Ore Mountains). The Christmas baubles are from a small village (Lauscha) to the south of Erfurt, and all the handmade wooden Christmas toys like pyramids, miners, nutcrackers, smokers and Schwibbogen, are from the Ore mountains, to the south of Dresden. Moravian Stars are from a village to the east of Dresden. And Stollen, the popular Christmas cake, is from Dresden.
The Ore Mountains are actually known as Germanys Christmas country. Here is a nice article about it:
http://www.startribune.com/longing-for-light/110826984/?c=y&page=all&prepage=1#continue

The Christmas market of Erfurt was already mentioned, and I would like to add that this is the only big Christmas market (200+ stalls) of Germany staged on a completely preserved town square, and in a preserved old town. All competitors, like Nuremberg, Stuttgart or Cologne, were leveled in WW2.
Here is a 360° panorama of the Christmas market (click on the third one):
http://3d-top-event.info/weihnachten_48_Weihnachtsmarkt_Erfurt.html

So, I would highly recommend to stay in Central Germany for a few days. And since this is your delayed honemoon: there are romantic hotels all over the country, and some of them are even called "Romantik Hotels". I think a unique hotel could make your trip more enjoyable, especially since this time of the year can be grey and depressing.
In Erfurt you could stay in a hotel on the Krämer bridge, one of the touristic highlights of the city:
http://www.kraemerhaus.de/

Wartburg castle, Germanys most important historic castle and a World Heritage Site, is 50min to the west of Erfurt. And next to the castle, and high above the Thuringian Forest, is the "Romantik Hotel at the Wartburg":
http://wartburghotel.de/en/

Posted by
26 posts

I second the recommendation for Hotel Auf der Wartburg in Eisenach. The hotel is perched above the town and holds a spectacular view of the Thuringian Mountains. It is, as M. Luther said, "the kingdom of the birds." It is a favorite place . . . among many. Another town north of this and in the Harz Mtns. is Wernigerode. We enjoyed our stay in the Gothisches Haus, a Travel Charme hotel. You mentioned being skiers, which I am not, so neither of these recommendations probably fulfill that aspect of your trip.

Posted by
15560 posts

Thanks to Sarah, I got to visit the medieval market in Esslingen and it was one of the highlights of my Christmas market trip. The other highlight was the Alsatian markets, and especially the seasonal decorations, which are easily reached by fast train from Stuttgart or Frankfurt to Strasbourg, then on to Colmar. Of the markets I saw, Frankfurt's was the least interesting, but the city has a enough interesting sights to fill a couple days. I day-tripped to Mainz from there, lovely market and lots to see, including the cathedral, the Chagall windows in St. Stephen's, a good archaeology museum and an interesting (and free) excavation sight under the shopping mall.

Posted by
416 posts

@ Russ: what did you mean by this?

"I would avoid these Rick-destinations: Bacharach, Rothenburg, Baden-Baden, Neuschwanstein and the Black Forest."

Did you mean avoid them altogether or just avoid them in that time of year??

Posted by
14481 posts

If you are going to Germany even for the first time, ( I know this does not apply to you), I would suggest getting out of the American comfort zone, spend your time in places which are not in the RS itinerary or suggested in the book. Pick your itinerary from cities/towns in central, eastern and North Germany. There are numerous places to choose from.

Posted by
416 posts

American comfort zone?? That's the second time I heard somebody say that here. What does it mean to you?

Posted by
2898 posts

What it means to me is to not visit the popular towns. So if you come to America, don't go to NYC. instead go to Islip, NY. What's in Islip?... Exactly. We happened to enjoy our 2 nights in Rothenburg. Would have hated to miss it.

Posted by
868 posts

What it means to me is to not visit the popular towns. So if you come
to America, don't go to NYC. instead go to Islip, NY. What's in
Islip?... Exactly. We happened to enjoy our 2 nights in Rothenburg.

No, it means to not visit large parts of the country. So, if you come to America, don't go to the Grand Canyon, San Francisco or New Orleans. Instead go to New York only, that's America.

90% of the posts here are about Southern Germany. Some people here visit the same sites there for the third or fourth time. There is obviously no interest to see the rest of the country. Islip? No, you miss the Grand Canyon or San Francisco this way. There are FOUR preserved medieval towns on the Baltic Coast which are World Heritage Sites because they are so important and good preserved. Islip? Hardly, but Americans simply aren't interested and will visit Rothenburg for the 4th time instead. Quedlinburg! The centre is almost twice as big as Rothenburg, a World Heritage Site too (unlike Rothenburg), and in a region with equally good preserved towns that can match anything you can see on the Romantic Road. But even Rick Steves didn't manage to see it at least once in 27 years. Because he knows what he can sell to his audience: Bavaria, and some short stopovers from there to Berlin. And that's the American comfort zone.

Posted by
15560 posts

I sense that Rick's destinations were chosen many years ago and a goodly number of them were off the radar at the time. In recent years, this has changed - maybe partly because he made them popular, maybe for other reasons. But while his guide books are updated (mostly) annually, and presumably places are added since they get longer, they haven't been overhauled so the destinations of yesteryear are all still there and the additions don't seem to cover new areas. I sometimes wonder if Rick were 30 years younger and going to Italy for the first time, if he'd still rave about the Cinque Terre or if he'd tell us to avoid it at all costs and head for other nearby coastal towns. Or would he tell us to go to Sicily?

Rick's books are very useful, especially for first-timers to a destination, but they shouldn't be stand-alone guides. I like using the books once I've chosen my destinations, but only then.

Posted by
6589 posts

"I would avoid these Rick-destinations: Bacharach, Rothenburg, Baden-Baden, Neuschwanstein and the Black Forest."

Some reasonable guesses above, but here's what I was thinking...

  • It's winter. BACHARACH and the BLACK FOREST are both charming but offer very little at that time of year. It might require a global climate shift for you to ski the BF in November.

  • Rick's itineraries tend to over-hype certain underwhelming places. ROTHENBURG is not underwhelming actually, maybe even fairly impressive in some ways - but it has become far too overwhelmed with visitors. It slows down in winter there and at night when the tour buses depart, but the 2.5 million annual visitors that inundate this town of 11,000 have "adjusted" the town's focus and character. Its sole purpose now appears to be serving tourists, so it's more about English menus, tourist trinkets, Christmas decorations, etc... BADEN-BADEN is just mildly interesting, perhaps more so if you are into casinos and spas (which Rick "Mud-bath" Steves seems to be if you've seen his videos.) NEUSCHWANSTEIN is a completely unique building, but the building's history is somewhat minor. Eccentric Bavarian King Ludwig II moved into his unfinished, newly-constructed palace-with-faux-castle-exterior in 1884 and died fairly promptly. It became a tourist attraction after that. Many visitors go there based on Rick's rec and its reputation as the original "Disneyland Castle", which it resembles. I can see why tour operators would want to take commercial advantage of this "tie-in" to tourists' vacation dreams and experiences. But Germany actually has dozens of other real medieval castles and more impressive era-built palaces that don't get much press in books like Rick's. If you are in the Füssen area already for other reasons or if you already have a passion for the Ludwig II story, then you might consider a visit, but otherwise I don't recommend making elaborate plans for the 30-minute tour.

People look at honeymoons differently, but in my very subjective opinion, heavy international tourist crowds tend to mar the experience and the romance of discovering new places (especially small ones.) Martin's suggestions are the sort that I had in mind. In Europe, I tend to like places that are less impacted by American and international tourists, not tourist-free places, but places with historical roots where my wife and I might rub elbows more often with Germans and other Europeans. Besides the guidebooks, you might have a look at the UNESCO World Heritage Site list for Germany (which Martin has referenced) to gather further ideas on places that might get you off the tour-bus trail:

http://whc.unesco.org/en/statesparties/de

Posted by
930 posts

Christmas Markets!!! Lots of walking, German music and food, Cathedrals - all in the hearts of the Old City. Feel free to PM me for any details. The ones in Frankfurt are ok, but not the best by any means.

We loved Nurnberg, Heidelberg, Passau, and so many other places. Happy Planning!!

Posted by
868 posts

All this couple wanted was information about a trip to Germany in Nov
and Dec and time after time we read the great philosophers of travel
write their opinions which have absolutely nothing to do with their
question.

OK, another idea between Frankfurt and Berlin, ... and not a huge detour to a place somewhere Southern Bavaria:
at least some of the trains between Frankfurt and Berlin go via Hannover or Braunschweig. To the south of these cities are the Harz mountains, which are roughly halfway between Frankfurt and Berlin. The area of the Harz mountains was the heart of Early Medieval Germany, and today you can find a number of preserved towns full of half-timbered houses there. Some of them are World Heritage Sites because they are so well preserved. Here is a site with 160.000 pics of the region:
http://www.raymond-faure.com/index_harz_english.htm

Have a look at Quedlinburg, Goslar, Wernigerode, Stolberg or Wolfenbüttel.
The region also offers the biggest steam train network of Germany. One of the lines goes up to Northern Germanys highest mountain, the Brocken. Very impressive on a beautiful day in winter. Here is a nice video about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6QUB4LrPew

Posted by
43 posts

Thank you everyone for the response. I think we are going to skip a lot of the western portions we were considering. This is what we have come up with so far. I'd love any further feedback.

Fly into Frankfurt, get car and spend day (1 day)
Drive to Rothenberg (2 days)
Drive to Fussen (2 days)
Drive to Salzberg (2 days)
Drive to Munich (3 days)
Drive to Nuremberg (2 days)
Train to Dresden (2 days)
Train to Berlin (3 days)
Fly home

thoughts? we are also considering adding a day to Rothenberg and subtracting one from Fussen.

Posted by
11294 posts

A car sounds like more of a headache than a benefit for your itinerary. In particular, even people who like driving in Germany say that driving in and around Munich is a major hassle.

Even if you want a car for part or all of your itinerary, no need to pick it up on your day of arrival. This just means an extra day of paying for parking, since you won't be driving around the city. Instead, get it on your way out of Frankfurt.

Posted by
6589 posts

"Thoughts?"

My thoughts are much like Harold's. I've driven and taken trains to all your driving destinations; I would not make the mistake of driving again into Salzburg, Munich or Nuremberg, and I would probably drive to the others only if I required accommodations that took me to an isolated location away from the station.

"...we are also considering adding a day to Rothenberg and subtracting one from Fussen."

I can't imagine 3 nights in Rothenburg, which IME is a half-day sort of place. For a visit to the German Alps I would probably cut the lengthy detour to Füssen, and add a day to Salzburg for a day trip to Berchtesgaden since Berchtesgaden and the Königssee, are so close to Salzburg - and spectacular.

If you can spare 1-2 nights anywhere, you could wisely add time to Berlin. Berlin takes time.

It's a shame the old-world cities of Bamberg and/or Regensburg didn't make the cut. Both are UNESCO World Heritage cities and nice places to be in winter. I would expect Nuremberg (which I like very much) to be extremely crowded during the pre-Christmas season, btw.