Germany/Austria trip

I suppose my #1 concern is that we're moving around too much. Will we regret being so nomadic? Perhaps we should pick two towns and stay 3 nights each, doing day trips each day. We will each have a rolling carry-on or backpack which could cause an issue unless we find lockers while exploring waiting to check into our next hotel.

Or maybe it's best to do this and see as much as possible, as I'll be staying in Cologne for four nights and will feel at home for a while.

Thoughts?

You're going to Germany and Austria at a wonderful time, but Im not sure your itinerary is allowing for travel time. Two nights in Salzburg with travel days on either side barely allows you to see Salzburg, with maybe a quick trip into Berchtesgaden. Mittenwald is almost 3 1/2 hours away by train! (Check www.rome2rio.com.) It's a cute town, but to see it I would trade the overnight in Nordlingen for one in Mittenwald. Two nights in Rothenburg gives you one day for either Nuremberg or Bamberg, but it's not realistic to do both in one day. I think it's better to be hardheadedly realistic about travel times at the planning stage rather than to arrive and be frantic and/or disappointed. If your boys are really attracted to Amsterdam, they might find Mittenwald and Nordlingen very...quiet, though I like Mittenwald a lot. Nordlingen's too slow even for me!

I think you have a good plan to my taste. I will say that no city in Germany is like it was in say the Middle Ages. Germany has been the battle ground for several wars. Nördlingen fell in the 30 years war. Rothenburg was about 40% bombed in WWII. Nürnberg was largely destroyed in WWII, much of what you see is rebuilt.

Added to the wars are changes in styles. The Baroque Age came to Germany after the Thirty Years war and Bamberg was largely redecorated.

Finally, Germany has my full thanks introduced electricity and indoor plumbing to cities of all ages. Buildings have had to keep up with building codes.

I would not omit places because they are somewhat changed. We did like Nördlingen.

https://mcchelsea.smugmug.com/Germany-April-2016/Nördlingen/

If you stick with Freising for your first night, we really like the Wirthaus Weißbräu Huber for good German food.

You are right, Ruth… the Mittenwald stop is a mistake... held over from when we WERE planning to do Innsbruck. (I was originally going to Nuremberg for work, but they changed the location to our Cologne office so we now have to work our way north.) I'll edit the above post to take that out.

We do like quieter places though. The boys just thought it would be interesting to go to Amsterdam since they will be quite close. I bet they will come back exhausted!

Great to know about Wirthaus Weißbräu Huber, Gary. Thanks for that!

I understand what you say about the oldness of the towns, but on my last trip to Germany, one of my most awe-inspiring memories (bringing tears at times) is standing in a building where SO much has happened.

That said, I realize that Nuremberg is rebuilt and I absolutely love that town!

"Flying into Munich and staying in Freising one night."

I assume your flight arrives late in the day or you'd be moving on to a different destination.
"Train to Salzburg where we’ll stay for two nights, probably seeing Miitenwald and Berchtesgaden while there."
B'gaden works as an outing. Mittenwald is nowhere close by.
"Train North to Nordlingen where we’ll stay one night."
This would be a 2-hour trip via Munich, mostly to the west from Salzburg.
"Then... we’ll take a train to Rothenburg ob der Tauber and stay two nights...I'm more interested in seeing original towns that weren't destroyed in the war."
This 2.5-hour trip requires 3-4 different trains from Nördlingen. Here's a photo of Rothenburg after WW II - roughly 40-50% destroyed.
"...probably doing a day trip to Nuremberg (Christmas Market), and possibly Bamberg."
Nuremberg works as a day trip - about 1.3 hours each way. Bamberg takes 2-2.5 hours each way, however. Bamberg really is a must if you want to see a well-preserved medieval town (UNESCO World Heritage city.)

I would probably re-organize your 6 days/nights prior to Cologne as follows...

Days, Nights 1-3 as planned - Freising, Salzburg, B'gaden
Day 4: Train to Wuerzburg for 3 nights. But stop over several hours in Nuremberg for a visit there on the way. The station has lockers while get around this city on foot.
Days 5&6: Day trip to Bamberg (just under 1 hour) on one day, day trip to Rothenburg (just over 1 hour) or other similar towns on the others. On the train route to Rothenburg are some other cute Main River towns you might visit on the way...

Ochsenfurt 1
Ochsenfurt 2
Marktbreit

Like these previous towns, the adorable walled town of Iphofen (see photos) is less than 30 minutes from Würzburg (on the train line to Nuremberg.)

Why Würzburg? While Würzburg was hit hard during the war, it does have some good sights, including the UNESCO World Heritage Residence Palace. It's a city but not a huge city - and a mostly attractive one. It is a very convenient train hub for your destinations, has plenty of hotel and dining choices, and puts you closer for the trip to Cologne. And there are good places to dine and enjoy the wine - like the zum Stachel. You'll have the convenience of a larger town with the ability to visit Rothenburg and other small towns during your stay. With 3 days in one place you don't have to pack up, check out, etc. - and you have some flexibility as to your sightseeing - choices you can make as you go depending on the weather, etc., since you have fewer pre-arranged hotel nights. And in W'burg you aren't stuck in a "tourists-only" town like Rothenburg - it's a real place where Germans live and study (major university) and work outside the tourist industry.

And what gorgeous photos of Nordlingen! I imagine it will look a bit different when I'm there in December. :)

Have you thought about going directly to Salzburg when you land? I think some combination of Salzburg/Rothenburg/Cologne with time for some day trips might be a really good trip. I just don't like packing and unpacking for less than three days if I can help it, and I travel light. When I was traveling with teenagers, I found that part was really not their strong point! Salzburg and Rothenburg are both pedestrian in their old centers, and you can really turn kids loose a little more there. If you don't have to pack up too often, but can just hop on a train, you can see some more places without working so hard. I think an overnight in Amsterdam from Cologne will be a fun addition!

Russ, thanks for your lengthy reply!
1. We get to Munich quite early, but thinking we’ll be jet lagged and beat, didn’t think we’d want a lengthy train ride right off the bat. Freising looks kinda neat. Should we bypass it?
2. The Mittenwald stop was a typo. I meant to remove it when our initial plans changed to omit Innsbruck.
3. I get that Rothenburg was partially destroyed, but from my research it looks like it is mostly intact (I read 40% taken out).
I appreciate your suggested itinerary and will discuss it with the family tonight.

We typically stay in Freising our last night in Germany. It is a scenic small town with a nice community styled Christmas Market. No grand sights but great for walks and atmosphere.

https://mcchelsea.smugmug.com/Travel/Freising-April-06/

https://mcchelsea.smugmug.com/Advent2012/Freising-2012/

BTW we were stationed in both Würzburg and Nürnberg. I think that you can not go wrong with either. Still, Rothenburg might have the best Christmas Market atmosphere.

https://mcchelsea.smugmug.com/Advent-2010/Rothenburg-ob-der-Tauber/

You are thinking of visiting many of my favorite places.

"We get to Munich quite early..."
I have never broken up a trip in Iceland - sounds like a great option. If you've gotten some sleep there and freshened up, you'll probably feel somewhat re-invigorated once at MUC - - that's the point of the stopover, right? I think the flight is something like 4 hours to Munich. Staying in Freising is pleasant enough but delays your visit to Salzburg, which is only 2.25 hours from MUC by train. I don't travel more than a couple of hours after flying into Europe - but that's after 11-15 straight hours of flying and airports as I depart from SFO. Your choice of course, but as long as I have some airport snacks or groceries in hand, I find train rides pretty undemanding, and I'd opt for a Salzburg bed that night.

"3. I get that Rothenburg was partially destroyed,..."

The fact that it was doesn't mean you shouldn't visit, IMO. Just wasn't sure if you knew. It's still an interesting place if you're in the area - for a short while anyway. My advice not to stay there isn't related to the rebuilding either - it's just that using Rothenburg as a base always means extra train rides and journey time for outings to Bamberg and Nuremberg - and also that IMO, 2-3 nights there is just too much Rothenburg... my feelings about the place are reflected in Rick's comment that R'burg "is well on its way to becoming a medieval theme park."

It would also be possible just to base yourselves in Nuremberg for 3 nights and to day trip to Bamberg and Rothenburg. Your trip to Cologne will take a bit longer if you do, and Nuremberg is four times larger than Würzburg, and Nuremberg may be overpacked with Christmas visitors, and hence may be expensive - I haven't checked - but Nuremberg is also an excellent train hub and your day trips would be doable. Würzburg IMO is a little closer to the small place you seek and much less overwhelmed by visitors.

Don't know your hotel requirements. I recently stayed at the B&B Hotel Nuremberg - small rooms, clean, nice enough for a short stay, though for 3 nights a larger room would be better. Breakfast available but not included. In Würzburg I've stayed at a place called the Jägerruh (which you should avoid if it's still open) and at Rick's rec the Barbarossa (great breakfast, passable room, great location.) Also stayed more recently at the IBIS, a bit of a walk from the station for train outings but a decent place... breakfast available but not included, which isn't a big issue for us on account of the abundance of bakery/coffee options in/near W'burg station (same is true in Nuremberg.)

Russ, you have persuaded me to go straight to Salzburg and have a bit longer stays in a single hotel room. My husband mentioned it in the beginning and I remembered how tired I was last time I flew to Germany, but that was a LOOOONG flight and not broken up by a good night's sleep.

Ruth, you have aided Russ in talking me into going straight to Salzburg. :) I remember our AK vacation and how we felt like nomads, as we stayed in a different room each night. Not relaxing at all. Making that first change now and will try to determine one more home base after Salzburg... maybe a halfway point to Cologne.

Thanks! I love this forum.

Hi,

I'll address your interest in seeing towns not destroyed by the war. Nürnberg was pretty much destroyed, shot up even before the US Army got there. I had a boss once who was a vet in WW2, I asked him of all the towns in Germany they went through, which was the worse looking, most devastated, ie, destruction, bombed out, gutted, etc, he said Nürnberg.

Of the towns/cities not destroyed, remained intact by war's end are Heidelberg, Celle, Hameln, Lüneburg, Flensburg, Sigmaringen an der Donau, Plön/Holstein, Weimar, Meissen, Bamberg,

Cologne was the one of the first big cities to be hit by US raids carried out by a thousand bombers at a time.

Hi Fred. Thanks for your reply! I do realize that Nuremberg was destroyed in the war as I've spent time there and am quite a history buff. Should have mentioned that I'm not ruling out seeing towns that had to be rebuilt, as I love Nuremberg and want to visit the Christmas Market there. But this is why I chose to include smaller towns that some may overlook (like Nordlingen, Bamberg, etc.). As for Cologne, I don't have a choice in that, as my company is headquartered there and we're turning a work trip into a vacation.

I think you can have a fine trip splitting your time between Salzburg and somewhere in the Wurzburg/Nuremburg/Rothenburg triangle. (I'll be there myself in early December, same as in 2015 and 2013.) I choose Rothenburg becauseI love its peacefulness at night when the crowds have disappeared, but I have a car for doing day trips. I always consider taking the train to Nuremburg and Bamberg, but when I realize it takes twice as long coming from Rothenburg, I always drive, even though navigating pitch dark roads is not my favorite part.

Both Wurzburg and Nuremburg are unquestionably better for train connections. Don't know how your trip falls out as far as specific days of the week, but Nuremburg's market on weekends is so crowded it's not fun for me. I don't think Wurzburg is affected as much by weekend crowds, and nights in Rothenburg are all about the same. This might influence your choice.

In Salzburg the Saturday market can be very crowded also. That's the day I like to make an early run to the farmer's market then head out of town for a day trip. A good day to go to Berchtesgaten, or Konigsee or the markets connected by boats on the Wolfgangsee. (Go early to that one; it gets crowded too later in the day.) Not trying to complicate your plans, just think more info usually means better planning. Tschüss!

Great to know about the train, Ruth. We are toying around with renting a car instead. I will need to check the hotels I have booked regarding parking. I'm also somewhat concerned about road conditions in December. Does Germany tend to keep their roads in good shape if winter weather is occurring?

Speaking of hotels, Rothenburg is PACKED when we are there. I was able to find a room for two nights in Hotel Rappen Rothenburg ob der Tauber, but they cannot accommodate our third night. So we'll have to move down the street a bit to Reichs-kuechenmeister. Both seem like lovely hotels. I will keep calling to see if they may have cancellations so we can stay in the same hotel while there.

I'm glad to know about the crowds, as that's not our thing. Will definitely keep this information in mind!

RE: Road conditions. Really heavy snowfall isn't that common in most of Germany. You usually only find it in southern Bavaria and some other mountainous regions, particularly the Ore Mountains of Saxony. The snow that falls elsewhere is usually only a light covering of no more than a few inches, and gets quickly removed from the roads. All bets are off, though, if you drive during the actual storm itself.

Don't worry too much about the parking in Rothenburg. I always stay in tiny Pension Elke which has no parking but they always direct me somewhere I can find a spot, usually along the inside of the old wall. Even if you have to park in a lot outside the wall, Rothenburg is so small it's not far to walk. I've had dinner at the Reichskeukenmeister and it was a lovely place.
I've been in Rothenburg when it snowed and they cleared the roads very quickly. That's true of all of Germany. It was a little tricky getting out of an icy parking lot, but the roads were fine. I actually enjoy driving in Germany because the Germans are such good predictable drivers. It's just very dark getting out of Nuremberg at night. But with GPS I've never had a major problem. I do always appreciate having a calm friend riding shotgun to help read the streetsigns!