Germany, Austria, Switzerland Itinerary Advice

A few comments. Generally you don't say what transport you are planning.

"walk from Murren to Schilthorn" - that isn't a walk, that is mountain climbing. See this website: http://gigigriffis.com/hiking-the-alps-to-the-top-of-schilthorn/

Keep in mind that this hike is advanced, steep, and not for the faint of heart or the inexperienced (you’ll be crossing some ridges with dizzying drop-offs, a number of loose rock falls, and one extremely steep hillside where a wrong step could mean a long fall).
Hiking time is around five hours (longer if you mosey and take lots of photos). Elevation gain is 1,320 metres.

"Day 4 - Fussen or Hohenschwangau or Garmisch (2 nights) – Lake constance, castles (Neuschwanstein,". This is an overfull day. It is difficult to get from Lauterbrunnen to Füssen or Garmisch-Partenkirchen. Either lots of trains, or drive (which had you planned?). Car hire has the problem that dropping of a car in a different country to where you picked it up is costly.
You will go past Lake Constance (Bodensee), but won't have time to stop. You will not have time to do Neuschwanstein on the same day.

"Day 18 - Plane to Frankfurt -> Rothenburg ob der Tauber (2 – 3 days) – Day trips to Nuremberg, black forest, Ludwigsburg palace, lichtenstein castle." - That is the long way. Just take a train from Berlin to Rothenburg ob der Tauber, ~5 hours.
Black Forest is too far from Rothenburg ob der Tauber for day trips.

Thanks Chris for the feedback. I should have mentioned that the descriptions of activities on any one day is just an overview of what we could do over the subsequent days, so not all done on one day. Thanks for the hiking information! I had not known it wasn't going to be an easy walk. I would be driving mostly unless the trains were more convenient. Heading out of Switzerland I would probably catch the train to a nearby city in Germany and hire a car from there, as you mentioned the expensive drop off in another country.

Heading out of Switzerland I would probably catch the train to a nearby city in Germany and hire a car from there

The obvious candidate is Lindau, just over the border in Germany and on the rail route from Switzerland. It is on Bodensee (Lake Constance), on a small island in the lake connected to the mainland by 2 bridges. Worth a visit.
Other option is Konstanz at the west end of the lake (Constance in French, which is where the English name for the lake comes from).

And where are you returning the car? In big cities (Munich, Vienna, Berlin) a car is a liability.
You could do Salzburg (for which you list trips out) before Munich, Then do the Alpine road, then head for Munich and drop the car on arrival. After Munich, train to Vienna.

Vienna to Berlin best to fly, it is a bit too far for train (7½ to 8 hours).

Vienna to Berlin best to fly, it is a bit too far for train (7½ to 8
hours).

There is also a night train between Vienna and Berlin.

Garmisch-P. Is a great place to stay. We spent a week there and only touched the surface of all there was to do.

You had me until Vienna-Berlin-Frankfurt, where it seemed like you were playing hopscotch around Germany and Austria. Vienna and Berlin are great cities, but they are geographic outliers here. Getting from Vienna to Berlin is going to require a long train ride or a flight, and then another flight from Berlin to Frankfurt. You're only giving yourself about 2.5 days in each city, since part of the first day is going to be spent getting there and settled in. And, these are coming at the tail-end of a long trip, when you're probably going to be tired. I guess I'm wondering if you should drop one, painful as it is, and the one I'd drop would probably be Berlin. You could do a fun, manageable trip through Switzerland, southern Germany and Austria. Something like:

Day 1-3: Arrive Zurich, Lauterbrunnen Valley.
Day 4: Train to Freiburg (about 3.5-4 hours, depending on how many stops). Rent a car and explore the Black Forest. I know it's not your priority, but if your partner "insists on seeing it," I think you should make it a part of the trip. Otherwise you run the risk of resentment being a third companion on the trip.
Day 5: More Black Forest.
Day 6: Three-to-four hour drive to RodT. You can pass through Ludwigsburg to see the palace and arrive in Rothenburg by early evening.

Day 7: Rothenburg/day trip to Nuremburg.
Days 8-11: Drive Munich, return car, take organized tour to Neuschwanstein (the one I went on included Linderhof and a stop in Oberammergau) one day, spend the rest of the time in Munich, OR
Day 8: Head to Garmisch-Partenkirchen, explore, do Castles, day trip into Munich.
Personally, I would stay in Munich. I think there's enough to see there to spend three full days and most of a fourth, especially if you do an all-day trip to the Castles, and another half-day trip to Dachau.

Day 12-14: Train to Salzburg. I haven't had the best experiences in Salzburg, but realize I'm in the minority here. You could probably stay out of the city - I love Hallstatt - but that might require renting another car. Up to you. You can easily do tours to Berchtesgaden and Sound of Music sites.
Day 15-16: Train to Melk, bike the Danube.
Day 17-20: Train to Vienna, explore city.
Day 21: Fly home from Vienna

I like making fake itineraries, so feel free to ignore any or all of this. But do seriously consider dropping one of the big cities. You've mentioned you can do places you've missed on another trip. A future trip to northern Germany, including Berlin, Dresden, maybe even Prague, would be something to look forward to. Have fun!

"I would be driving mostly unless the trains were more convenient....Swiss Travel Pass? "

The Swiss rail system is superb and particularly so in the Jungfrau region. You might want to look into a multi-day pass matching your time there. You'll be able to navigate everywhere, change plans without penalty, hop on and off without purchasing tickets, and be better able to enjoy the scenery. As I recall, the pass also works on the boats that can take you on the lakes (Brienzeersee and Thunersee) that flank Interlaken. I'd be tempted to add at least another day (particularly if you plan to spend a day on the amazing Jungfraujoch -- https://www.jungfrau.ch/en-gb/).

Chris, thanks for suggesting the two potential candidates to hire a car from. I was thinking to drop the car off in Munich as it would make it easier to head to Vienna by train.

Thanks Allison for your detailed itinerary. Given me a lot to think about and change, very much appreciated! You are right, I guess I can add the Black Forest in there to avoid the negative feelings :)
I feel that if he researched it a little to see what is actually there and what would interest him then he might want to leave it out. Great suggestions with routes and timing!
I think if I did drop one it would probably be Berlin. I do like the direction of your future trip suggestion! Thanks!

RCA, I will definitely look into a multi-day pass! Thanks for the suggestion.

We were also toying with the idea to do Austria this April 19th for 10-12 days and then do the Germany/Switzerland leg in September. I casually browsed hotels in Salzburg and Hallstatt for those dates but there doesn't seem to be much available. Is there a reason for this?

Not to be a contrary voice, but I like your Salzburg, Vienna, Berlin sequence just fine. Vienna is a 4 hour train ride from Salzburg. The OBB Nightjet train leaves Vienna at 10pm and travels through Poland to arrive in Berlin at 9am. Book a sleeper compartment. Or fly - it's about 90 minutes.

I rode a bike around Lake Constance last summer. IMO on a first trip you could miss it entirely and not such a big deal. Lindau is the highlight city. I thought the little Swiss city Schaffhausen on the Rhine just west of Constance though was a lovely and interesting town. Nearby Stein am Rhein more touristy but interesting muralled buildings.

I would suggest the night train option between Vienna and Berlin, you stretch out a travel day. You have 3 different night routes between these two cities. That listed above going through Poland is the newest.

The other route is via Passau transferring in Hannover to Berlin, the terminus is Hamburg.

Another route is the night train Vienna to Munich, then take a direct ICE to Berlin.

I would take the train from Berlin to Frankfurt. Buy your tickets ahead of time and they will be super cheap. Only takes 4 hours. A flight will end up taking longer and be more expensive once you add in getting to the airport, waiting an hour and half before your flight, the flight itself and then getting into Frankfurt from the airport.

Rather than a 3 hour train to Rothenburg from Frankfurt, you might want to consider Büdingen instead? Original, medieval walled town, never been bombed and only an hour by train from Frankfurt. The near-by town of Gelnhausen is worth a visit too as is Ronneburg Castle.
https://www.buedingen.info/en/
http://www.burg-ronneburg.de/
https://www.gelnhausen.de/

VIENNA is actually a 2 hour 20 minute train ride from Salzburg.

If you get on the fast one ;)

There are multiple fast trains every hour between Salzburg and VIENNA offered by OeBB and Westbahn. There is no such thing as a slow train on this route.

Thanks so much all for the great suggestions! I do like the idea of the fast train from Salzburg to Vienna and the train from Berlin to Frankfurt. I will definitely consider Büdingen instead of Rothenburg. Looks very similar to Rothenburg.

Also, If I were to visit the Black Forest, what would be a good base? I have read that Hornberg and Wildgutach are good bases as they are IN the Black Forest. Otherwise a good choice would be Gengenbach for it's convenience to public transport. I will have a car so this wouldn't matter too much.

Just remember to get any road vignettes you need to drive in Austria and Switzerland so you don’t get fined. We picked them up at the border.s. We rented our car through Avis in Frankfurt so if one was needed for Germany it was already on the car.

Hi again,

I have had a break from itinerary planning and have made some adjustments based on everyone's comments:

Day 1 - Arrive Zurich - head to Lauterbrunnen Valley

Day 2 - Lauterbrunnen Valley

Day 3 - Lauterbrunnen Valley (add another day?)

Day 4 – Train to Freiburg (2hrs). Rent car and stay in Black Forest area. Suggestions: Hornberg, Wildgutach, Gengenbach, Titisee?

Day 5 – See Black Forest

Day 6 – See Black Forest

Day 7 – Drive to Rothenberg (3-4hrs) (pass through Ludwigsburg palace and Lichtenstein castle)

Day 8 – See Rothenberg/day trip to Nuremburg

Day 9-11 – Drive to Garmisch- Partenkirchen (3.5hrs). Stay here as base to see Lake constance, castles (Neuschwanstein, Hohenschwangau), Oberammergau, Munich. OR

Day 9 – Drive to Munich and stay here as base and take day trips to castles and other sights.

Day 10 – Munich

Day 11 – Munich

Day 12 – Leave car and take train to Salzburg

Day 12 – Stay Salzburg or other base (Hallstatt, Fuschl St Gilgen, Strobl or St Wolfgang?). Hire car here

Day 13 – Salzburg area sightseeing

Day 14 – Salzburg area sightseeing

Day 15 – Train to Melk

Day 16 – Train to Vienna (1hr), explore city

Day 17 – Vienna

Day 18 – Vienna

Day 19 – Vienna

Day 20 - plane to Berlin (1hr)

Day 21 – Berlin

Day 22 – Berlin

Day 23 - Berlin

Day 24 - Fly home

Still tweaking it. Do I have too many days in Vienna and Berlin?

Without reading the whole thread just the opinion to cancel one day of Vienna and to add it to Berlin, e.g. spend it in Potsdam to see the Prussian / German palaces in contrast to Bavarian castles. You can see also a more northern version of castles, the red fortress Zitadelle Spandau.

Be aware that Berlin has a lot of events in September (e.g. IFA and marathon). Book asap. Prices will raise only.

The usage of a night train (NJ 456) between Vienna and Berlin can give you some more time and reduce your eco footprint a little bit.
https://www.nightjet.com/en/reiseziele/deutschland/berlin.html

Thank you so much for the feedback. I had not thought of the night train but that might be a good idea for saving time! Great, I will drop one day in Vienna and add it to Berlin. Thanks for the heads up regarding the marathon, I also did not know about that!

Hi,

The Night Jet train is a relatively new night connection between Vienna and Berlin, goes through Poland instead of the former night route through the Czech Rep.

If you do go to Potsdam, the Tourist Office is conveniently located on the top floor of Potsdam Hbf, where postcards are also sold. One of them has the title, "Potsdams Schlösser" showing the various chateaux aside from Sans Soucci. I've seen a few of them, obviously, not all.

Potsdam is nice, one of my favourite small towns in Germany. I managed to see it by guided tour (only way allowed in the Cold War days) in 1987, the last time last summer.

Hello,

In regards to your updated Itinerary: I would put Lake Constance with the Black Forest, it's much closer. Gar is nice, but as a base for the castles I would suggest something closer to the castles say Fussen or even across the boarder in Ruette. You will want to drop the car off when you get to Munich, there is no need for a car in Munich. What I did with a car on my way to Munich was visited Dachau and then dropped the car off at the airport (maybe 20 min drive) then took the train 40 min into Munich. Personally I was emotionally drained after Dachau and it was nice to sit on a train and ponder.

I'm currently looking into the Jungfrau region of Switzerland myself so I'm very excited for you to visit there. It looks amazing and lots of outdoor activities to keep you busy.

Thanks Fred for the help. I will definitely have to add Potsdam to the list now, I love small german towns.

Thanks schroeder0503. It does make sense now to put Lake Constance with the Black Forest leg. Thanks for the suggestion of Fussen. I was thinking of Fussen as a base but a few people in forums say it is too touristy and prefer maybe Schwangau. Having a bit of trouble deciding. Maybe it won't matter so much if it's only a couple of days there. That is an excellent suggestion about visiting Dachau on the way to Munich and leaving the car at the airport. I had a look at the Dachau website and they suggest to get public transport since they are renovating the parking area. So maybe I will just drop car off at the airport then head into Munich and use a day to take the train out to Dachau instead.
I am excited for you to visit there too! It will be my first time. :)

@ Sarah...You're welcome. As you are exiting from the train platform, chances are if this is in the morning, the guided tour ticket sellers will try to talk you into taking their tour, the buses are located across the street. You'll see them one after another. The obligatory places they go are Sans Souci (Frederick the Great's Schloss) and Neues Palais. The difference among the tour companies is whether you'll be let off at either place and are guided around by the tour leader and for how long.

The tours end when they bring you back to Potsdam Hbf where you joined up. That's when you can go back by bus (the bus depot with the destinations all clearly indicated by electronic boards) or walk back.

When I went to Potsdam the first time in 1987, by guided tour only from west Berlin, the place served as a showcase for the commie government. Lots of the city struck me that history and time in Potsdam had stopped in 1945...totally different as to how the streets and building look like now.

In the war, the ending days of the war, Potsdam was bombed by the British once...totally unnecessary.

Seeing, exploring the town on your own after a tour gives you an insight of a small town in eastern Germany, sociologically and culturally very different, pleasant. I've been to a number of them. It's a different feel compared to similar size towns in western Germany

There is another activity in Potsdam, which, admittedly, I have yet to do, if you want to do something where you'll be (most likely) only among locals, (Germans), that is, take a boat cruise on the Havel (Havelrundfahrt). You arrange that at the Tourist Office.

I’d really think twice about the night train. Flights between Vienna and Berlin are frequent, fast and CHEAP. Nothing like a slog on an overnight train to ruin your day of arrival completely.

Thanks again Fred. You have a plethora of knowledge!
Emily, I think I am more inclined now to just take a flight to Berlin.

Scythian - Instead of constantly trying to tear down another’s opinion or advice, kindly work on your own original thought.

If something is factually wrong, then feel free to correct. Your contrariness is becoming tiresome.

Vienna - Berlin:

Whether you can sleep on a night train or not is an individual matter. Even that varies. I used to sleep well anywhere. Now, my needs are completely different.

Night train vs. day train... These are NOT the only options. I would split the train trip into two journeys on two separate days - one pm train ride + one early am train ride - and overnight in between in Munich, in a real bed.

Lv. Vienna 17:30
Ar. Munich 21:42
(overnight)
Lv. Munich 6:57
Ar. Berlin 11:29

This trip can be done on a single ticket (w/scheduled stopover) and costs €39.90 at DB for the sample date in July I used. Once September tickets become available, I'm sure you will have a good shot at a similar price.

"...where train is a viable alternative." True...day or night, it is viable, isn't it?

Those night trains I have taken and do take certainly are not empty. when it comes just getting a seat in a six seat compartment, never mind a sleeper or couchette. I wish they were, never sat in a night train compartment seat alone or even with one other person, always a full house...always locals, Austrian or German, even families with kids among them, mostly solo guys, sometimes solo women too, again exclusively German, encountered a couple of times solo Asian females.

What I don't encounter on the NJ night train are North Americans, even to popular places within their radar, Munich and Vienna.

The Munich to Budapest night train I have yet to take. Maybe the Americans are to be found on that night train. but then the sleeper and couchette are not options for me.

Those night trains I've taken, at least 2-3 on every trip, even though the last trip 4 night rides were planned, are within Germany or crossing from Germany to Austria regardless of direction.

No problem sharing a compartment with 4-5 strangers, (you are a stranger to them too) as mentioned, the overwhelming odds are they are German speaking because usually at some point people start up a conversation, which I eavesdrop on and might join in...just depends.

I saw one American family on the last 8-9 trips taking a night train, a sleeper.

I am not as pessimistic as to the fate of night trains. There might be no sleeper or couchettes, which I find very doubtful, but there will always be night service. NJ took over the night lines run by CNL. and expanded the night net. Plus, there is also EN. Numerous night lines run ...all one has to do to find it or tailor the times, which is no problem.

The Berlin-Vienna direct night line running now through Poland is new, it used run through Czechia. Of course, you can do Berlin-Munich by night, change in the morning for Wien Hbf.

I'm going to refer you to this post I just made about the Black Forest. I would not do it on this trip, but that's me. I wouldn't include it on any itinerary unless it was my 3rd or 4th trip to Germany.

I liked Fuessen in it's own right as a place to base for the castles. Garmisch is nice too, more "Americanized" although both are fairly touristy, due to the old US Army presence and an Army resort in town.

If you're spending extra time in Southern Germany I do think Lake Constance is lovely, Lindau in particular.

I'm personally not a fan of night trains. I'm a light sleeper. I love the idea but it hasn't worked out well in practice for me.

Ludwigsburg and Lichtenstein are in my neck of the woods but are far enough outliers that they don't make sense on this trip. Rothenburg is not a good base to get to them, you'll be spending a lot of time in the car (traffic can be awful).

Hi Everyone, thank you very much for the informative discussion and suggestions. The only issue I have with training it to Berlin is that we would lose one night in Vienna if we were to catch the train say at the 3pm slot (to head to Prag) and the 5:30pm slot (going to Munich). Also, I am an extremely light sleeper so I would definitely get no sleep. I will have 3 suitcases so this makes mucking about with stop-overs a bit tiresome. Otherwise I am all for it.

Hi Sarah, interesting article. I also do not see the appeal but my partner has always wanted to head in that direction. He loves hiking in forests and wanted to try the black forest cake in the region. We are coming from Australia, so a good 24 hours to travel to Europe. I do not think with such a long travel time, we would be doing this trip any time soon let alone 3 or 4 times. We will most likely investigate the other countries in Europe. If my partner did change his perspective then I guess our plan to hire a car in Freiburg would change. If Rothenburg is our first point of interest after Switzerland then we would hire a car from Lindau as Chris suggested.
We have beautiful forests in Australia, so I doubt the Black Forest would be much more different. I am open to recommendations and to be convinced otherwise but I have read in a lot of forums that it is quite over rated.

3.5 days enough to do Vienna? This includes a day trip to Melk.
I have 4.5 full days in Berlin, also enough?

Hi,

Five full days for Berlin and 3.5 l days for Vienna is good, 4 would be better if you could spare that. This gives you down time too.

In Berlin I would suggest taking the boat ride on the Spree. See Berlin from the Spree, (also the subject of old time traditional Berlin songs), just as seeing Potsdam from the Havel. The boat tours start near the DDR Museum if you are in Mitte.

Unfortunately, that is the amount of suitcases I need to take as I am transporting some belongings of a relative.

Thanks Fred for your help and great suggestion about the boat ride in Berlin.

Hi,

You're welcome. There is obviously more than one company offering boat rides on the Spree. You'll see that at the where you buy the tickets, ie in the same area as the DDR Museum. It's basically seeing Berlin from the Spree just as seeing Paris from the Seine.

The Potsdam boat ride on the Havel is what I would find much more interesting since the route goes through rustic areas too.

Re: the end of the Munich-Zagreb night route, that's bad. If I take that route, I'll just have to tailor the ride (be creative) in the same manner as I would do Berlin to Paris with one transfer on the night train. Munich to Budapest is actually Munich to Vienna by night train, which arrives ca 0600 hrs in Wien Hbf., then changing for Budapest.

As long as there is night service, I'll find a way of getting to the desired destination by night train, eg, going from Cologne to Warsaw.

@ scythian....Thanks for the information on the EN night train Munich to BP direct, wasn't aware of that connection.

That gives me one more option, doesn't it? Changing in Wien Hbf ca. 0600 hrs isn't too bad either before continuing to Budapest.

I would not try to do Nuremburg as a day trip from Rothenburg. I find Rothenburg interesting enough to just spend the day there. Plus, if you are using the train, just getting in and out of Rothenburg is not particularly convenient. Also, I would want to spend a night or two in Hallstatt and not do this charming village as a day trip. For me, I did not find Vienna interesting enough to spend so many days there, but I know others would disagree. I am not so much into museums. I enjoy charming small villages much more.

If this train will be indeed suspended that'll threaten the Kálmán Imre(the Budapest - München night train) as well, since the 2 were running together between Salzburg and München and the MÁV may not be able to finance the train on its own.

But Salzburg - Munich is just the last short leg. And the train is operated jointly by ÖBB and MÁV, not by MÁV alone. Moreover, the Lisinsky is paired with the ÖBB NJ Munich - Venice as far as Villach, so the ÖBB has a natural interest to keep it running. If the HŽPP withdraws the Lisinsky they will probably operate the train themselves or in cooperation with Slovenian Rail, if only as far as Ljubliana.

"...so the ÖBB has a natural interest to keep it running." Let's hope those 2 night trains stay around, Munich to Ljubliana/Laibach and Munich to Budapest.

Hi,

On seeing the Prussian-German palaces as recommended above, my recommendation also. You'll get quite a different perspective and historical and geographical insight in seeing these "Potsdamer Schlösser."

Good points Joy about Hallstatt and Nuremburg.
Will definitely add the Prussian-German palaces to my list!

I am planning a similar trip except we wont be doing Switzerland and trip will happen in early July for about 15 days. This is a great thread and loved reading the suggestions from all the people. This would be our first trip to the area. We did Italy (Rome, Florence, Venice, Cinque Terre 10days), Grindelwald valley (4 days), Paris (4) days) and Amsterdam (2 days) a few years back. Our goal was to spend more time in the places we wanted to see. This time we would ideally like to spend 10 days in Germany, 2-4 in Austria and if possible 2 in Budapest. I will be doing some reading over the next few days and post our itinerary to get some feedback. Oh by the way we will be traveling with 8 and 10 yr old.

@abhijit_junnare it is a great thread isn't it. Everyone has been most helpful and kind in sharing their knowledge. This really is an indispensable resource.