Germany 4/20/18 - 4/29/18

Not too little, rather a lot actually, certainly doable by train. Germany has a lot of local train deals called "Laender" tickets and "Verkehrsverbund" tickets (OK, Germans like big words, but they are local transit district tickets).

Can't give any rec's whether it is "worth it" to stay anywhere in particular. Its worth it if its worth it to you. My personal opinion would be to stop in Wuerzburg (note the "r", and the "u" has has an umlaut, so I use the convention of adding an "e" after the "u" because it will take me too long to figure out how to type a "u" with an umlaut) for an afternoon then go on to Rothenburg for 2 nights then to Nuremberg. But that's just me.

Dachau is a suburb of Munich, so a half-day trip from Munich would work.

Frankfurt airport to Bacharach is a local RMV ticket (Frankfurt "big word" transit district). Bacharach to Wuerzburg/Rothenburg can be an advanced purchase discount ticket or a "QdL", like a Laender ticket but covers all of Germany for a day of unlimited travel on local trains. Rothenburg to Nuremberg is a VGN ticket ("big word" transit district again) and to Munich and Neuschwanstein is a Laender ticket. Munich to Dachau and back and to the airport are MVV (Muenchen Verkehrsverbund) local transit district.

Learn about Laender tickets and QdL tickets at: https://www.bahn.com/en/view/offers/regional/index.shtml?dbkanal_007=L04_S02_D002_KIN0060_ST-REGIONALE-ANGEBOTE_LZ01

If you're not wedded to April, I'd make the trip a bit later in the year when your odds of good weather in Germany would be better--assuming you would consider warmer and more hours of sunshine "better" even if accompanied by (likely) more rain.

I wouldn't suggest mid-summer when it might be too hot; it was definitely unpleasant during mid-summer 2015.

Just to add to Sam's excellent synopsis above, since you plan to travel from Bacharach to Würzburg on a sunday, it can be done with regional trains and a Schönes-Wochenende-Ticket for 44€ (for two). There are currently 3h45 RE connections with only one change. You could also use a Savings Fare ticket and long distance trains for about 60€, but you would save less than an hour, maybe only 20 minutes.

As for Dachau, I would take a direct train to Munich, which doesn't stop in Dachau, and make a partial day trip from Munich to Dachau. If you stop in Dachau on the way from Nürnberg, you'll have luggage with you. Although there are lockers at the Dachau station, when I was there in 2011, they were all full. There is no provision for luggage storage at the Memorial.

"I have poured over countless threads but still feel at a loss... We are open to any and all suggestions."

I'm not sure how to read this. Sounds like you might be very "unmarried" to your plan. Germany is very diverse, and there are countless alternatives and/or tweaks that you might pursue. I'm curious why you are discontent with your plan, what sort of trip you had in mind, what your interests are. Your husband wasn't impressed with Frankfurt I take it... he's not alone in that regard... but it might be wise to nail down for us what he disliked and what kinds of places the two of you hope to see instead. (For example, I notice you have about half your nights in Munich, a city with a population twice that of Frankfurt's... so I hope his turn-off is not busy, heavily-populated cities that were flattened in WW II... Munich may not be his cup of tea. Würzburg and Nuremberg aren't as large but suffered similarly in the war.) It sounds like you have basically adopted Rick Steves' generic menu of destinations and sights... that's not horrible in itself - it certainly simplifies planning - but maybe you're saying you'd prefer to make the trip a bit more your own?? You certainly could. There's lots of time before you have to finalize your trip decisions. The route you have in mind could mean a visit (or an overnight stay) at a medieval castle or at a family winery. You might want to wander around some towns that, unlike Rothenburg, have eluded mass tourism - Iphofen, for example (scroll through photos here.) There are cities similar in size to Würzburg such as Bamberg (a place with wonderful pubs btw) and Regensburg where the past is much better preserved and the effects of WW II were not so devastating - unlike other Bavarian cities, both of these have UNESCO World Heritage status.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/624
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1155

Another special place that Rick ignores is the wonderful Franconian open-air museum in Bad Windsheim, where you wander through historic buildings and take in the last 500 years or so of local history.

So I don't know what tugs at your sleeve exactly, but Germany probably offers it. Maybe some of these suggestions will sound right for you or lead you to explore other options.

Lubitsch: Many here value your contributions, but they would be a little more valuable if you removed the condescending "standard US holiday tour" nonsense. The fact is that many US tourists to Germany will go one time. For you, a resident, this is all so tacky. But for US tourists, these are the high points. Your valuable thoughts, as a resident, would be more helpful without the huge amount of judgemental stuff. I have taken your "master list" and saved it in a file for later examination. It's great to have a German who has good ideas about "off-the-tourism-centrum" locales.

Just my opinion, and you may feel free to disagree with me. You have previously.

OP: In 8 days, 3 differest stops will mean a lot of traveling. I'd pick 2. You have a short trip. I would choose to add an extra night in Nurnberg. Is there any way of adding 1-2 more days to the trip? You are 6 M out - have you bought your air tickets?

What specifically will you do on the birthdate itself?

3 days in Munchen is good. Chinisichum Turm Beer Garden (outdoor beer garden, at that time probably not too touristy), Nazi-time tour in Munchen, Dachau, all good. There is also the Residence tour in Munchen. Of course, the Hofbrauhaus. There are plenty of great restaurants and beer places.

"The fact is that many US tourists to Germany will go one time. For you, a resident, this is all so tacky. But for US tourists, these are the high points."

Well, I think the high points are the high points because US (and other international) tourists are heavily targeted and swayed by the interests of the tourist industry - not because they make their own decisions based on real-world, on-the-ground options in Germany.

If they visit only once, there's no reason visitors must do what Rick Steves or Karen Brown or Burt Wolf tells them to do. I don't necessarily share Lubitsch's word choices, but I certainly do value his suggestion that they shop around - and pay attention to what people in Germany happen to think as well. "What places do Germans travel in Germany?" is a very good question. They might just know a thing or two about their country.

I don't want to get into the discussion about tone, but as far as the content goes, I am with Lubitsch on this one. This is pretty much a run-of-the-mill itinerary, give or take a day or two here or there, give or take a small deviation in the route or in the order of stops here and there. And there is nothing wrong with that if that's what someone wants to see.

However, you must grant us a sigh or two when we see this itinerary over and over again and visitors consistently ignoring that Germany has a lot more to offer than Neuschwanstein, Rothenburg and the Rhine. Just imagine, there is civilized life even north of Frankfurt!

I've seen the same kind of thing happen on "travel the U.S." forums when person #1355 asks "I want to travel San Francisco, LA and Las Vegas, is that a good itinerary?" There is absolutely nothing wrong with traveling SF, LA and LV if that's what you want to do, but millions of people have done it before you, and there are millions of trip reports, itineraries and recommendations out there.

There is this kind of vicious circle of what tourists expect in a country and what guide books keep recommending. Obviously, guide book writers need to sell their stuff, and writing about those iconic places everyone has heard of probably sells a lot better than trying to introduce unheard-of places.

That said, while some of these favorite spots certainly are worth visiting, you might in fact give a thought or two to the question why many Germans never even bother to visit Neuschwanstein.

Lubitsch and Anna: You don't live in the US. We have several forms of TV. Public TV is one of the TV forms which dispenses cultural, cooking, and travel info. Rick Steves has been on public TV since 1990 or so. For many Americans, Rick Steves IS Europe. His idea of cheap, non-glitzy, non-hotel travel is what people think of with European travel.He makes about 6-7 1/2 hour travel programs every year. Now, Rick Steves plays every night on our public TV. So, he is the face of Europe. You might know this, probably you don't because I have no idea what is on German TV. So that explains a bunch in my opinion about American travel patterns.

What I think most people do is travel like an onion. On the first trip to Germany, you want 1) Rhine 2) Neuschwanstein 3) Hofbrauhaus. Once you do those, you can get to Traben-Trarbach, Erfact, Leipzig, Cottbus, the Spreewald, and so forth. But the first is Germany 101, the second is Germany 202, 301, 401.

It's like France. We did Paris on our first trip and the Normandy battlefields. On our last trip, we did the Bretagne region, Chartres, and skipped Paris except for a change of trains.

So, instead of dumping on our OP, the excellent suggestions you both made will be more helpful. Of course, the first time a tourist comes to a country, they will do the Tourist 101 stuff. As I said, I saved your excellent list of resources for Germany behind the obvious.

That is an interesting observation about those UNESCO sites. Well, we'll just enjoy them ourselves and be glad that they are not as overcrowded with tourists as they might rightfully be!

I wasn't thinking of the RS guide in particular, BTW, but years ago, we had friends visiting from overseas, and I believe their guide book actually did not include anything north of Frankfurt, so I was only half joking about that.

Edit after seeing Paul's post, @Paul: Americans have been visiting Germany long before Rick Steves ever did his first show. And guess what places they visited before Rick Steves: 1) Rhine 2) Neuschwanstein 3) Hofbräuhaus. And as I said, this is not a typically American phenomenon (see the SF/LA/LV example).

Unfortunately, what you call "Germany 101" remains "Germany, the only one" for many travelers, and they return home with the impression "I have seen the important sites of Germany".

Well, they haven't. They have seen the sites that Mr. Disney and a number of guide books presented to them.

Rick only makes 6-7 videos a year. Many videos on TV have dates of 2009, 2010. So, the issue is not that he makes the same video, its that the same video is in permanent rotation. There is 1 video for Croatia. One for Slovenia. It's a very limited view of Europe. He has made maybe 100 videos. Since they are shown every single day in my market, you go through the entire rotation 3x a year.

I think we really have to apologize to @hanelme for hijacking this thread. :-(
Sorry, @hanelme, all this isn't directed against you in any way. I do hope you have a wonderful stay in Germany, and basically, that's what this is all about.

@Paul: From my European perspective, anything Rick Steves may or may not have done is negligible. He may or may not have reinforced already existing clichés, but those clichés were there before anyone ever heard of Rick Steves, so I am not focussing on his person here.

My point is this: Imagine Europeans visiting the United States, and visiting 1) the Columbia River 2) Hearst Castle 3) Mardi Gras in New Orleans. Certainly that's a legitimate choice of destinations, and I am sure one could very much enjoy a vacation to these destinations.

But you would probably shake your head if all European visitors were to visit only those three places and go back home saying "We've seen America". You would (rightfully!) ask: What about the Grand Canyon? New York City? Niagara Falls? San Francisco? Or even Disneyland?

Does that maybe give you an idea how we feel about those "Germany 101" destinations?

hanelme, I'm sure you didn't expect the lectures you received when you posted your question. I think your itinerary sounds fine with maybe a few minor tweaks as suggested (making Dachau an afternoon trip from Munich). Perhaps you might get better responses on another travel sight as those here seem to want to pontificate rather than help.

For a first timer, going the beaten path can be reassuring, and an introduction that results the idea to get off the beaten path the next time around. True confession, first trip we went to Rothenburg, and we enjoyed it immensely. It has a well developed tourist infrastructure, including the hourly little connecting train from Steinach, lots of hotels, the Night Watchman Tours, shopping, etc. It is a bit of a slog getting there, which is why I suggest staying there. Like Venice, its a different town after the day-trippers leave.

With 9 nights, 2 in Bacharach, 2 in Rothenburg, 2 in Nuremberg, and 3 in Munich is not a bad introduction. Yes, it hits all the RS buttons, but it can lead to venturing further afield next time. Those items have been checked off and now you can dig a little deeper.

I didn't see any pontificating. Broadening, yes.

I wish we had more discussion with hanelme (happy birthday to come) to see if they are adventurous or not.

I know that when I was in my late 20s and early 30s I was pretty adventurous. I would have loved to have known some of the detail shared above.

The great thing, hanelme , is that we have so much time to help you plan and you have so much time to decide how much of this to adopt.

I know when I read through the initial itinerary in your OP I was taken aback by how rushed it felt.

I am well aware of the kid in a candy store feeling...

Perhaps have a read of this trip report, in the Germany Trip Reports forum:=

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/germany-switzerland-italy-in-a-blur

Back to the original question. I would stay in Rothenburg and then do the day trips to Wurzburg and Nurnberg.

Yes, Rick Steves tv shows are seen on tv and today are 'the face of European tourism' for many Americans. He can hardly be blamed for all the tourism to certain places. I visited these places at least a couple of times before he ever stepped foot in front of a camera. Your route is a fine one that you will enjoy.

Just a note in favor of fine discrimination, once you get above the Germany 101 level: In August, 2017, we included Lübeck, Stralsund, Wismar on the same trip. It was not necessary to see all three! There are personal reasons for selecting one or another of them, but I found that the most touristy one, Lübeck, delivered the most traveler value for we two. OTOH, our nearby stopover in Schwerin, and on the more central leg, in Aschaffenberg were very rewarding, in important non-UNESCO historic cities. We previously saw Quedlinburg, which I count a must-see.

First I'd like to point out you will be in Munich during Frülingsfest. It's like a mini Oktoberfest but without the high prices. Please take advantage of this while you are there.

On to your questions.

Am I planning too little?

No you are not. Quite the opposite actually.

Is it worth staying the night in Nurnberg or should I go straight from Wuzburg to Munich & then do a day trip to Dachau and Nurnberg?

If it were me I'd choose heading strait to Munich to minimize the number of overnight locations. A day trip to Nürnberg is possible but I'd recommend somewhere closer to Munich unless there is something very specific in Nürnberg you needed to see. Freising, Erding, Landshut, any of the lakes south of Munich (plus more) are all closer and make great day trips.

Is this itinerary viable without a car?

Yes, but I'm in the camp of recommending a car if you are doing a day trip from Munich to Neuschwanstein so you can stop at places like Weiskirche along the way. It's one of the few time I prefer a car over public transport.

There is nothing wrong with taking the well worn path, especially if you are nervous about what to do. It's your trip and your money so don't let others make you feel like your choices and somehow flawed.

Hope you have a great birthday trip.

DJ

Rick Steves, from the current Travel with Rick Steves radio show (#505, at ~40 minute mark):

I've spent decades looking for the untouristy Rothenburg. I would say the two closest things to the untouristy Rothenburg are Erfurt and Bamberg.

And here I was nervous no one would respond! Sorry for going radio silent, I posted Friday night and then went away for the weekend so I am just now getting back!

I was hesitant for my original post precisely because it felt very cookie cutter. My husband and I are adventurous and love having a mixture of hitting the highlights but also seeing things off the beaten path. I'm so excited to be going to Germany in the first place that I want to see everything & anything (Kid in the candy store indeed Nigel!). This may be my only chance to visit Germany (who knows what the future holds right?) so I want to really maximize my time there while still actually enjoying & absorbing it. I'm a history fan, but also don't want to spend all of my time in museums. We also love the outdoors, markets, great food and great drinks!

I'm going to look at my schedule & husbands and see if we can't add another day or two to help slow down the pace, as we have not bought plane tickets yet. Also I do think I will make Bamberg a home base & bypass Rothenburg ob der Tauber. I will also go straight to Munich rather than stopping over in Nurnberg. Worst case, we can make Nurnberg a day trip from Bamberg?

And I agree with there being better castle options than Neuschwanstein Castle. Unfortunately the ONLY request my husband has for this trip is to visit that castle. I have already attempted to dissuade him but alas, it is a sticking point.

As I have several months, I will continue to refine and research and will most likely come back to bug everyone when I have nailed it down a bit more but please feel free to keep posting as I definitely love all the input.

If you want an "untouristy Rothenburg", go to Nördlingen. It is Rothenburg's little sister. It has an almost intact wall, with a Wehrgang you can walk on, and a church tower you can climb for a great view of the town and surrounding area. All it "lacks" is a Christmas shop and a Crime and Punishment museum.

Thanks, Hanelme, for not getting put off by our little philosophical discussion. A few more days would make the trip more pleasant. Your modification will make it a bit less frantic. Enjoy your trip, and post your trip report when you return.

All it "lacks" is a Christmas shop and a Crime and Punishment museum.

... and above all that outrageously kitschy christmas shop. But then it lacks the beautiful situation above the Tauber valley and a masterpiece like the Riemenschneider altar too. But I agree, Nördlingen is well worth visiting, and so is Dinkelsbühl.

It is most easy to visit Bamberg to Nürnberg or vice/versa as a day trip. Regional trains make frequent fast journeys between the two. I once went to Bamberg for breakfast. Only 41 minutes (plus or minus) station to station, using a cheap VGN-Plus ticket which includes local transportation at both ends.

Hi,

You have such a great choice in this first trip to Germany. If you want to celebrate your birthday in Germany, I can see that, otherwise, I would suggest going in the summer, say from mid-May to September. Pick nine days within that time frame.

Your travel plan to Germany is all within the American comfort zone, which is all right if that is really what you want. I wouldn't and did not on my first trip over. For this trip you certainly are not limited to visiting and staying in these places under consideration listed above. Why? There a lots of places to visit in Germany, towns and cities, in the north, central, east, not those only visited by US tourists. If I were designing a first time trip to Germany for someone from the US, I would skip 95% of your proposed itinerary. Good, flying to Frankfurt, then moving on to Berlin, by a connecting flight, then departing from Munich or Berlin.

I suggest focusing the nine days on Berlin, Potsdam, day trip to Dresden or Leipzig, day trip to Naumburg an der Saale, or Weimar, a German cultural center. Skip Rothenburg, Würzburg, Neuschwanstein (you'll most likely be inundated with international tourists there, even in late April.). Bottom line is the geographic focus of the trip would be shifted.

@ hanelme....It is up to you if you want to accept this Germany 101 line of reasoning in your travel plans. The travel philosophy/goals or reasoning in Germany 101 I completely reject, never heard of such a thing.