German train Intermediate Station Limitations

The trains of the Bahn (ICE/IC/EC) are set. The ticket is only valid for those specific trains. However, you can use any regional train on the same route that day. This rule is referred to as Vor- und Nachlauf and says you can use any equivalent regional train(s) until 10 AM the next morning. You could also use any regional train on a specified route any time on the first day to get to the specified trains of the Bahn (had such trains been part of the booking).

I haven't used one of these tickets in a few years, but my ticket from 2008 has these words on it,

"DB: Gilt nur in gebuchten Zügen an angegebenen Reisetagen. Im
NV(S/RB/RE/IRE) auf eingetr. Streche vor/nach den geb. Zügen am 1. Tag
ul. Folgertag bis 10 Uhr."

Deutsche Bahn: Valid only on the booked trains on the specified travel day. in NV(S/RB/RE/IRE) on the listed route before/after the booked trains on the first day and following day until 10 o'clock. "NV" is Nahverkehr, the regional train system.

If your first 2 trains are both ICE trains, you must use those as scheduled.
It's not clear what the designations are for the subsequent 4 trains. If those are all definitely regional trains - not IC, not ICE, and not EC - you can use any regional trains you like, when you like, the same day on the same train routes.

Thanks for the answers so far.

Dependent upon final scheduling I have S, ERB and possibly RB and IC. All would be within the NRW regional area.

An IC is a train of the Bahn, and, therefore, your ticket is only valid for the IC specified (date and time) on it, regardless of how far it goes.

The other trains are regional.
S is for S-Bahn, a suburban train.
RB is for Regional Bahn. These are milk run trains that stop at every station.
ERB is for Eurobahn. These trains are run by a private company under the Bahn's privatization policy. They're are undoubtedly run on an RB, milk run schedule.

To see if a train is regional or not, go to the Bahn website and put in the start and end stations for that train, the date and time, then select "only local transport". If the train shows up on the schedule, it is a regional train.

German railway tickets are complicated!

If I have a specified IC train & I don't take it am I correct in understanding that I could take any regional train that followed the same route instead?

"Dependent upon final scheduling I have S, ERB and possibly RB and IC. All would be within the NRW regional area. "

As Lee says, the IC train would need to be used as scheduled. It doesn't matter what the transport region might be - only what kind of train it is. You must use the the specific high-speed trains on your ticket. Any travel segments on your ticket that are designated for "Nahverkehr" (NV) must be done on local/regional trains only (but you can choose which time you use those.)

If the ticket isn't already purchased, you can almost surely specify a regional train choice in place of the IC train - if you want. You just need to click OFF the IC, ICE and EC train options under "Connections/more means of transport" for that particular train segment.

If all of your travel is going to be within the state of NordRhein-Westfalen (NRW), you can get a Schöner-Tag-Ticket for 29€ single, 42€ for 2-5 people, and have unrestricted use of any regional trains in the state all day. You wouldn't be able to use a train of the Bahn (e.g. an IC), but you could stay anywhere as long as you liked (that day. Länder tickets are generally valid until 3 AM the following day).

Ah - Thank you. I had not found that option & I have not purchased the ticket yet.

I would still appreciate an answer to the question that if I have an IC train specified can I just take a regional train instead. The IC is an efficient train, that I understand I can only take if it is specified, but it comes right at the end where my desire to either have extend or truncated my visits is the most likely to have an effect.

If it is not possible then I will definitely tick the boxes for regional trains only on those legs.

Lee

The journey starts in Brussels (0633 ICE) & ends in Dortmund with visits to Wuppertal & Dusseldorf.

If I have a specified IC train & I don't take it am I correct in
understanding that I could take any regional train that followed the
same route instead?

I do not believe that is correct.

All would be within the NRW regional area.

The journey starts in Brussels (0633 ICE)

Which is it? Brussels is not within the NRW.

Oh I do hope you will consider a ride on my favourite little swinging train - the Schwebebahn in Wuppertal.

I assume you want to take an ICE from Brussels for the first leg. Selecting only local transport will deselect that train.

Instead, put in Brussels to Dormund with Düsseldorf and Wuppertal as stopovers. Then go to Means of Transport and deselect ICE, IC/EC, and D from all but the first leg. That should show you a routing by ICE to Düsseldorf and regional trains from there.

There are a number of RE (regional express) from Wuppertal to Dortmund and they are only a little slower than an IC.

Yes you are correct. The first leg is on an ICE which gets me to Cologne and the €29 fare. The rest are within the NRW area and included in the ticket price.

I have found the train leg options & I can deselect ICE & IC trains for everything but the Brussels to Cologne bit.

The swinging train is the reason to go to Wuppertal.

Thank you for information that I would never have worked out on my own/

There is a full length YouTube video of the length of the Schwebebahn which is very good and gives a good idea of the experience.

Enjoy the trip through the chemical factory. I find it astonishing how thin the floor of the stations is. Be sure to get off at the ends and watch the turn-around. Very tight.

"If I have a specified IC train & I don't take it am I correct in understanding that I could take any regional train that followed the
same route instead?"

As I indicated above, "You must use the the specific high-speed trains on your ticket." The German pages are clear about this:

From the DB site - Sparpreis conditions:
"Bei der Buchung legen Sie sich auf einen bestimmten Zug des Fernverkehrs zu einem bestimmten Termin (Datum und Uhrzeit) fest. Das Ticket gilt nur in diesem, auf der Fahrkarte eingetragenen Zug und an diesem eingetragenen Termin.

English (my translation) -
Upon booking you commit to a specific high-speed train and to a specific schedule (date and time.)
The ticket is valid only for the indicated train and for the indicated schedule.

Russ
Thank you. I realise that I have to take the specified high speed train but I have other ordinary IC trains on the suggested schedule that I may or may not wish to take when the trip actually happens. My question was thus not about the high speed part of the trip but about the other Bahn IC trains and whether I actually had to use the suggested train or whether I could substitute a local train at my discretion on the day.

I now understand that I do not have this option and will thus specify local trains on my ticket for all legs other than the initial ICE from Brussels to Cologne.

I have seen the video of Wuppertal and the photograph of the turnaround and yes it does look incredibly tight. As you appear to know the overhead are there any other "must not miss" highlights that I should include?

German train tickets are not complicated....that's relative. If it specifies date and time (Geltungstag), then take that train, as simple as that as it pertains to the IC train.

German train travel does appear to be relatively complicated if you are trying to do it on a budget. A couple of examples:-

There are critical distinctions between regional and Bahn trains dependent upon ticket type as discussed above.

If travelling on a zone ticket you have to know which stations are in your zone - without them being listed anywhere - to make sure that your train does not pass outside your zone even if you are not leaving the train. eg if you have a VRR zone B ticket purchased in Essen and want to use it to travel from Wuppertal to Dortmund (both in the zone) you can either get the suggested DB website train that passes through Hagen - which is not valid on the ticket even if you stay on the train- or transfer via Essen which is valid. If you are not told this I cannot see how you find out until a ticket inspector tells you that are travelling on a non valid ticket.

I am sure that it is all easier if you speak German.

"I have other ordinary IC trains on the suggested schedule that I may or may not wish to take when the trip actually happens. My question was thus not about the high speed part of the trip but about the other Bahn IC trains"

In Germany, trains fall into one of two categories - high-speed/long-distance (Fernverkehr) - and local/regional trains (Nahverkehr.) The German IC train is not an ordinary local/regional train, but a long-distance train. A question about IC trains is a question about Fernverkehr; ticketing rules that apply to trains in the Fernverkehr category apply to EC, ICE and IC trains.

"There are critical distinctions between regional and Bahn trains"

I think with "Bahn trains" that you mean to refer to high-speed/long-distance trains -. Deutsche Bahn (DB) in fact runs both categories of train - the regional trains and high-speed/long-distance trains. Here's a DB regional train.

I think you are quite correct - the German train system and ticketing system is quite complicated, and knowing understanding the Nahverkehr/Fernverkehr distinction as Germans do is essential. You're also right that facility with the German for these two categories is helpful. And nothing but a map can help anyone sort out which stations lie within which transit authority... and how DO you get those ticket prices for those transit authorities if you don't know German... and even if you do, it's complicated as you end up looking at a beehive network and counting individual travel cells, then finding prices on a chart by the number of cells you pass through... AAARGH.

I know for a fact that many Germans themselves, even frequent train users, don't fully grasp the way the system works. You almost have to be a trained employee of DB for that.

Thanks everyone.

I think that I know what I am doing.

Deutsche Bahn (DB) in fact runs both categories of train

True, Russ, but the regional trains are run by subsidiaries of the Bahn, Schienenpersonennahvekehr or SPNV) in the individual states (Länder). In Bavaria, for instance, the regional trains are run by Bayerische Eisenbahngesellschaft (BEG). That is why regional trains don't run for very far outside their Land, usually only to a major rail hub in the adjacent state. When I went from Dresden to Freissing, I took one Regional Express run by Sachsen from Dresden to Hof, just over the border in Bayern, where I changed to a Bavarian RE for the rest of the trip through Bavaria.

The Fernverkehr, on the other hand, runs the express trains (ICE/IC/EC) directly, which is why they span across multiple states. DB, itself, refers to these as "trains of the Bahn".

If travelling on a zone ticket you have to know which stations are in
your zone

You don't mean zone, you mean within a Verkehrsverbund, or transit district, in your example the VRR (Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Ruhr). In your example, Wuppertal West to Dortmund is a price level 'D' ticket, whether via Essen or via Hagen. If the trip between Hagen and Dortmund goes through Witten, which is in the VRR, it's still a price level D. But if it goes through Schwerte, which is in another Verkehrsverbund, it's a different tariff (not shown on the website). This is the VRR webpage to get fares.

And yes, understanding German is a help (mostly). Try navigating a transit system in this (or your) country if you don't speak English.

I think we have missed something here. Do you already have the ticket from Brussels to Düsseldorf (or Köln) and just want to use a pass of some sort to get from Düsseldorf to Wuppertal to Dortmund? If you don't already have the ticket from Brussels to Germany, why don't you just get a SparPreis ticket from Brussels to Dortmund with only regional trains after Düsseldorf? I can see SparPreis ticket prices for 92 days from now for 29€, same as the Länder-Ticket. Then you wouldn't have to worry about whether the train from Wuppertal to Dortmund goes out of the VRR.

No you are not missing anything. I am planning a trip to Dortmund, Dusseldorf and Wuppertal and I obviously have a choice of how to do it.

One of the options is to effectively start in Brussels with the early morning ICE to Cologne & that is what I was asking about here. Other options obviously include flying etc and in connection with these I looked at local day tickets.

One of the other options includes buying a VRR day ticket in Essen. As I understand it, despite what is suggested above, if I validate a VRR B ticket in Essen it does include both Wuppertal & Dortmund. The VRR website would agree that a ticket between the two is indeed a D ticket.
A VRR day ticket purchased in Dortmund or Wuppertal that included both + of them and Essen would indeed be a D ticket.

My plan, following the discussion here, is to buy a €29 SparPreis ticket from Brussels to Dortmund travelling to Dusseldorf on two specified ICE trains & then free choice of local trains for the Wuppertal and Dortmund bit. I will also need a day ticket for the overhead railway in Wuppertal.

All this train nomenclature in translation can be REALLY confusing. I'm going to make a plea to all the train advice-givers that we standardize our terms.

"DB, itself, refers to these as '"trains of the Bahn."'

OK, but I think it's a turn downhill if the Fernverkehrszüge/long-distance/high-speed trains should now be referred to as "Bahn trains." That only blurs the most important distinction IMO and doesn't de-confuse the confused.

"The Fernverkehr, on the other hand, runs the express trains (ICE/IC/EC) directly..."

I think of the ICE/IC/EC trains as "express" trains in English as well - but it's a bad label IMO for the German trains because of the Regionalexpress train (which then becomes an oxymoron!)

DB generally calls the non-ICE/IC/EC trains "regional trains" - as in...

Valid on all Deutsche Bahn regional trains (RE, IRE, RB, S-Bahn)

And DB generally calls the ICE/IC/EC etc. trains "long-distance trains" - as in...

The use of long-distance trains (e.g. ICE, IC, EC, City Night Line and
other international high-speed trains) is not permitted.

Since readers will be reading DB pages, I intend to drop my use of "high-speed trains" to refer to the ICE/ICE/EC etc. trains and to use the above terms consistently (to the extent of my skills at being consistent, anyway.)

Will you join me?

OK. From now on it's Long-distance trains or Regional trains, preferably with (ICE/IC/EC) and (IRE/RE/RB/S) added, respectively - just to avoid the confusion between "IC trains" and "other Bahn IC trains" or "ordinary IC trains". The term "express" has never bothered me, since Inter-City Express is a faster version of the Inter-City, with fewer stops, and Regional Express is a faster version of Regional Bahn, with fewer stops, but if it confuses those people who come here for advice, sobeit.