German pronunciation question

The regional pronunciations can differ considerably, but the »ch« as in the Scottish loch or the Spanish Jerez, but softer, is the standard. Use Ba.bla or Forvo for specimens of pronunciations.

Generally it doesn't help to equate the difficult German consonants with any of the English ones. You need to learn them anew, or English tendencies will color your German pronunciation.

Standard ("High") German for the ch in "ich" and "nicht", or "echt" or "sprechen", or "euch" or "feucht"... it's closest to the first sound that many of us make in English when we say "huge." (And thus I break my own rule about comparisons with English... but it works to do so in this case.)

Try saying "ha" in English, then "huge." Do you hear a little "extra air" when you say "huge" in English? That's the sound. It's a voiceless palatal fricative - IPA symbol is [ç]. The tongue approaches the palate to make this sound.

For "acht" and "Buch" and "Loch", the sound is also a voiceless fricative. But the tongue approaches the velum, further back in the mouth behind the palate. In some dialects, the tongue is closer to the uvula. So it's a voiceless velar (or uvular) fricative, also with that "extra air" sound. I do not know of an equivalent in English. The phonetic symbol is [x] or [X].

There is no phonemic (meaningful) difference between the two "ch" sounds. It just sounds very odd if you do them wrong. So why the difference? The [ç] sound is preceded by vowels made in the front of the mouth. The [x] sound is preceded by "back" and "low" vowels (like [a] and [o].) The location of the tongue for the vowels "conditions" the pronunciation of the consonant. This is very common and natural process in English and other languages as well as German. "d" in English, for example, has a number of different versions depending on the phonetic environment it occurs in.

Here's Katja to help you.

Some experts will chime in with good guidance, but yes, it does vary regionally with dialects, etc. The problem, I think, with trying to pin it down for native English speakers, is that the closer-to-"kh" sound is very hard to produce if you didn't grow up making it. So language books try to make it easier for Americans to default to the easier "ish" sound or "ick" and, you're right, its somewhere between. I always aim for a back-of- throat "eech(uh)" as in "chutzpah" for Ich.

I think I hear it closer to "ish" as you go south and into Austria. Just my impression.

@ stan...Saying it close to "ick" is berlinerisch. Good. You will hear it said that way in traditional Berlin songs.

I go by the German pronunciation key. It is certainly not "ish".

In standard High German it is "ch", not "s(c)h" and not "kh".

Tip: dict.cc has pronouncation examples from native speakers and language computers.

Tip 2: Babbel is a very good language learning app, especially for German because made in Germany.

If the variations are regional, which way would Berliners pronounce
'Ich"?

If we speak High German it is "ch". If we speak Berlinerisch we say "ick" or "icke", the "ck" similar to German word "Ecke" (corner). A Berliner saying is "Icke, dette, kieke mal, Oogn, Fleesch und Beene" :-)

Info: a very few Germans have a language handicap and switch between "ch" and "sch" without willing or intention.

Well, in Frankfurterish or even in Hessich, Ich is pronounced Isch. Words that end in ig, like zwanzig, artig, driesig, are also pronounced with an isch sound instead of a hard g.

Dialect has everything to do with how words are pronounced unless people are speaking Hoch Deutsch. The Germans in Cologne sound nothing like those in Bavaria who sound nothing like those in Berlin, or Frankfurt, or Stuttgart, or Dresden, etc..

Berlin is definitely more of an ick, with hard g's and ck's.

When I go to Berlin, I speak German the way I would in Frankfurt, with more of a Frankfurt dialect. Lots of soft sch sounds. My German is street German though, with an American accent but people usually have no idea where I am from. Classes were not cheaply available to me in 1986, so have done the best that I could with a dictionary, German TV, and for a while a German husband.
What is fun is that the different states or cities will have advertisements in their respective dialect and it is interesting that I can read the ones in Hessen, but not in Cologne, or Bavaria.

Just want to make clear that Hessisch dialect is only spoken in Frankfurt / Main, not Frankfurt / Oder :-)

Also every dialect has its own words for some context, e.g. "plietsch" around Hamburg which stands for smart / clever but do not expect that this is understood 200 km away. A Bavarian example is "Schmarrn" for nonsense.

One more for the OP: "Ch" at the beginning of a word is a little bit difficult. Two examples:

• "Charakter" is spoken like a "k". Same for "Charisma".
• "Charme" is spoken "sch" or in English "sh". Same for "Champagner".

Sorry, Mark going to have to disagree with you there. Come to Wiesbaden, Eltville, Büdingen, Idstein, Bad Homburg, Limburg. They all speak a form of Hessisch.

My German is street German though, with an American accent but people
usually have no idea where I am from.

Interesting. Very few German-speaking Americans go undetected as Americans. Learning German the way you did (a great way to learn any language,) you very likely have mastered most of the sound system, with an exception or two. If you say your accent is still American, it is probably due to the English "R" sounds of your birthplace. It's those sounds that are toughest to shake - and the German "R" equivalents are the most difficult to acquire because of that. Getting the R's right requires the attention of a professional - like a speech therapist, or professional phonologist!

From what I've seen, Germans are very good at spotting accents, and they pick up on those American English "R" sounds right away. If they are confused about where you are from, it is probably only because you have become so extremely fluent in the rest of your German skills. In other words, to the locals, it's almost unfathomable that any American could learn to speak and understand spoken German with native fluency - and this assumption, in light of your native-like fluency, trumps the fact that your accent sounds American.

Russ, I have no illusions that anyone ever thinks I am German, they just don't know where I am from. Have been guessed every country in the world at one time or another. Just like you would probably not know if someone was from Austria, Switzerland, Berlin or Bavaria, Germans often do not hear the difference between British, Australian, or Amerian English.
My grammar is awful, my pronunciation leaves a lot to be desired unless speaking slowly, which I seldom do. Vocabulary is extensive though and would be fine going weeks speaking only German. Hopefully, Mark will visit Frankfurt someday and we can put it to the test.

It all sounds like Greek to me!

Russ is correct on the "r" pronunciation, the so-called "das Zäpfchen-R"

True, a lot of Germans speak English, also among them those who speak it fluently or certainly to close to it. . That they want to speak with you since you are American for the purpose of practicing their English is a myth. Maybe I've come across that once when the waiter saw my MC credit card had "California" on it. He switched over to English, I continued in German.

@ Ms. Jo: seems that you misunderstood my comment. What I meant: Hessisch is spoken in / around Hessen, so of course in & around Frankfurt / Main. But we have two Frankfurts in Germany - I do not know if you are aware of this other Frankfurt in which of course Hessisch is not spoken.

do not hear the difference between British, Australian, or Amerian
English

Not mentioning does not mean that German people do not hear the difference. It is so easy for German ears. In most cases I can even feel the difference - even without the language.

@ Diane....Yes, that's what we say in American English.

In German a similar expression, idiom, or equivalent was used too, (don't know if it's still said, most likely no longer) but instead of "Greek" the German term used "villages in Bohemia " to represent something incomprehensible to the listener.

The German equivalent of "it's all Greek to me" was: "Das ist mir böhmische Dörfer."

I lived in Germany from age 5-10. Thus, I did learn German pronunciation at an early age. I can converse reasonably freely on simple subjects with Germans, and sometimes they don't immediately switch to English. Not with Swiss, however.

As to "Ich", my mom's side is DonauSchwabian, and Schwabian pronunciation is a bit more "Ick". At least that's why I think I started that way.

My main problem is my vocab, which sucks.

There seem to be a lot of myths around the German "ch". :-)

Dialects aside, the ch in "ich" is pronounced neither as "ish" nor as "ick" nor with a ch like in "Achtung" or "chutzpah" or as in "Jerez". If phrasebooks describe it that way it's simply because there is no sound like that in the English language and they don't have any better way of describing it.

You'll have to listen to pronunciation samples to hear what it really sounds like, but I'd actually describe it as a bit closer to the y as in "yes" or "yuck", just not quite as soft and vowely.

And yes, the pronunciation does depend on the preceding vowel. With a preceding a, o, u it's a hard ch sound like in "Achtung" or "chutzpah". With a preceding e or i, it's this softer y-like sound.

As a language learner, I would try to stick with the standard pronunciation as much as possible and not worry about dialects, but since you ask: Yes, Berlin has the "icke" in its dialect, and in some regions of Germany (Westerwald for instance) people have a hard time differentiating between the soft ch and the sh sound, so the two sort of melt together into one. Low German (a language still spoken in parts of Northern Germany but on its way to extinction) also has the "ick" sound.

"Ch" at the beginning of a word is a little bit difficult. Two
examples:

"Charakter" is spoken like a "k". Same for "Charisma".

"Charme" is spoken "sch" or in English "sh". Same for "Champagner".

Fortunately, there is a system to that. You may have noticed that all those words have one thing in common: They are loan words from other languages. Words with a Greek origin like "Charakter" or "Charisma" are pronounced with a k sound. Words with a French origin are pronounced somewhat like they are pronounced in French, with a sh sound at the beginning. Same thing goes for words with a Hebrew origin like "Chutzpe" which are pronounced with the ch like in Achtung.

Just like you would probably not know if someone was from Austria,
Switzerland, Berlin or Bavaria

Oh, it would be very easy to tell the Swiss person from among a bunch of foreigners speaking English. :-) They have a very characteristic melody to their sentences. Unless they have lived in an English speaking country for a long time, they would have that in English too.

Fortunately, there is a system to that.

And of course there are exceptions to these believed rules like "Chemie" :-)

And of course there are exceptions to these believed rules like
"Chemie" :-)

... or China or Chile. :-)
You are right, those rules probably are a bit more complicated than that. I would assume that it has to do with the following vowel sound. A k sound before a, o, u, and a sound like in "ich" before e and i?

Anna writes, "You'll have to listen to pronunciation samples to hear what it really sounds like, but I'd actually describe it as a bit closer to the y as in "yes" or "yuck", **just not quite as soft and vowely."**

Anna, if an English speaker takes this advice, he's going to sound very weird! With "soft and vowely" what you are actually pointing out is that the "y's" in "yes" and "yuck" are significantly dissimilar from the "ch" in "ich" - dissimilar because those first two are voiced sounds - created by activating one's vocal cords. The "ch" in "Ich" is voiceless. If you try "ich" with voicing, you may or may not be understood - or you will sound like you have a speech impediment. In fact, it is entirely unnatural for native speakers of German to use voiced consonants at the end of a syllable That's why the second "D" in Dortmund sounds so different from the first "D" when you analyze it. The point and manner of articulation is the same, but the voice gets turned off for the final consonant. With the exception of nasal consonants (n, m, ng) German de-voices final consonants.

English messes with final consonants too. But it does not de-voice them. That's what Germans do when they speak English and what (in part) causes their German accent. It's why they have no trouble pronouncing "back" in English, but "bag" is so difficult for them (and ends up sounding like "back", as in "Where's my handback?")

if an English speaker takes this advice, he's going to sound very
weird!

No weirder than if he says "ick" or "ish". Or a with a ch like in "Achtung".

dissimilar because those first two are voiced sounds

Well, yes. That's what I was saying, wasn't it? Only in other words.

I didn't say the ch in "ich" is identical to the y sound. I said it is closer to the y sound in "yes" than to a k sound.

The ch as in "ich" and the y sound are produced in approximately the same region of the mouth, just with more or less air flowing to make it voiceless or voiced. The k or the sh or the ch as in Achtung are produced in totally different regions of the mouth.

Oh my gosh this is complicated!

Just to clarify my own situation -- I am Jewish and quite familiar with the "ch" sound in "challah" and "chutzpah." That's not the problem. It's the other ch sound, the one in 'Ich," that I'm having trouble with because the advice I get from phrasebooks varies so widely. And now I've seen some say that it's like the "h" in "Hugh," or like a "y," which is even more confusing. I realize that there are sounds in other languages that I just can't distinguish perfectly, and it seems that this is one of them. And I have no desire to try to convince anyone that I'm not an American -- I'm sure that will be obvious before I even open my mouth.

About that only things I will really NEED to convey are "My husband is a vegetarian. Is there any meat or meat broth in this?" and "I don't eat pork. Is there any pork or lard in this?" (I just read that some pretzels, which I was assuming were okay for both of us, are "brushed with pig fat," so I'm even more paranoid about the food than before.)

I'm really enjoying what I'm learning about the language ("gloves" are "hand shoes"??) and looking forward to my first visit.

Oh, one other thing that surprised me -- the word that phrasebooks list for "Doctor" is "Arzt," which is unlke anything I know in other European languages. Where does that come from? I'm sure I've heard "Doktor" -- is that just for for Ph.D.'s? If you are actually seeing an "Arzt", would you call them "Doktor"? (Herr or Frau Doktor, maybe?)

If a native speaker were from Austria or Bavaria speaking Hochdeutsch or their dialect, I can tell right away. Get a person from Berlin or a nearby small town in Brandenburg, I 'll tell you easily that s/he is not from Vienna or the Salzkammergut area.

If s/he is from Switzerland, I have a bit more difficulty in determining whether he is from Austria or Switzerland and would have to listen more/eavesdrop more.

There are certain linguistic features, sounds, tell tale signs you listening and look for , the same as when an American is speaking German...generally.

I have never heard of pretzels being brushed with pig fat. Where did you read this?

Being vegetarian in Germany is very, very easy as it is very popular. Every restaurant will have multiple options. Check out the Happy Cow app or simply google Vegetarian restaurants in any town you will visit. Even TA has this as a filter option

"I didn't say the ch in "ich" is identical to the y sound. I said it is closer to the y sound in "yes" than to a k sound."

Similar / dissimilar / identical... these judgments are all complex and subjective, and dependent on one's native sound system, which prejudices one's impressions. One thing you can count on for sure. Native English speakers tend to judge these things in one way, German speakers in another.

I challenge anyone to go to Katja's excellent video lesson (previously posted as sell) at 00:27 where she pronounces the "ch" in "ich" and say the same sound out loud. Then say the "y" - the first sound in "yes." Do they really sound at all the same? If you say yes, then you need to go to 03:50 of the same video, where Katja explains the "yodded h" - which is not a "ch" or a "y" but instead a "ch" - "y" sequence. She pronounces the "ch" + "y" + "u" in "huge." So it's possible, Anna, that you are confusing the "ch" sound with the "ch" + "y" sequence (or yodded h.) Katja's spot-on point is that German "ch" is nearly identical to that very first sound - without the added "y" sound - that English-speakers make when they say "huge." AND, she makes the point that the "y" sound is a completely different one. One reason she has to explain this, and why people find this confusing, is English spelling - there are only two letters to represent the 3 sounds in the "hu" of huge.

Back to what you said about "ch" and "k" sounding very different to you. That's exactly right - and I'm sure German speakers will nearly all agree with you. The reason for this is that both sounds occur as phonemes in German - sounds that distinguish meaning. Take the words "lachen" and "laken." The "ch" and the "k" are different phonemes, and you can't get them wrong, or you miscommunicate. Then we have the English-speaker learning German... even though he makes the "ch" sound when he says "huge", that "ch" sound for him is just a by-product, not an English phoneme - he has no idea he even makes that sound when he says "huge", he ignores the sound when he hears it and uses it, and thus he doesn't have a "slot" in his head for that sound at all. The closest phoneme sound he has is "k" - so he latches onto that sound, and that's the same error made by every English speaking learner of German at first. Every one of them will agree that "ch" is pretty much like "k", even if it's not so in German. They all make "ich" or "euch" sound like "eek" and "oyk"!!

Anyway, the point of this is that our native language sound systems determine what sounds are important and what sounds are meaningless by-products - and this fact conditions our judgments about what is similar and dissimilar. That's where phonological science steps in as a more neutral judge of such things. Katja IMHO does an outstanding job of applying phonology and helping learners escape their native English pronunciation tendencies when learning German!

Jackie writes, "And now I've seen some say that it's like the "h" in "Hugh," or like a "y," which is even more confusing."

Yes. Jackie, go to the video I posted previously. Katja will sort it out for you!

@ Jackie...For your "Arzt" you do address that person as "Herr Doktor" or "Frau Doktor"

@Russ, I am sorry, I am not quite sure what you are getting at. So you are saying the ch in "ich" is more similar to the sound in "huge" than in "yes"?

You say that "Native English speakers tend to judge these things in one way, German speakers in another." Well, certainly. We are talking about a German word and a sound of the German language though. Wouldn't it be for the German speakers to judge if the ch is more similar to "huge" or to "yes" or possibly to k or to sh?

By all means use "huge" if that makes it easier for you to learn the ch sound. I personally don't see that it is any closer to that sound than the y in "yes", on the contrary. But I wouldn't want to be splitting peas about that here. Just as long as no one insists the ch sounds like a k. :-)

About that only things I will really NEED to convey are "My husband is
a vegetarian. Is there any meat or meat broth in this?" and "I don't
eat pork. Is there any pork or lard in this?"

If that's all you need, no need to worry! Everyone will be thrilled by your attempt at speaking so much more than "Good morning", and no one will care about your "ch"!

(I just read that some pretzels, which I was assuming were okay for
both of us, are "brushed with pig fat," so I'm even more paranoid
about the food than before.)

I have never heard of that, but I am afraid that lard does seem to be part of the recipe in some regions. I am not sure which regions.

Oh, one other thing that surprised me -- the word that phrasebooks
list for "Doctor" is "Arzt"

Yes, "Arzt" (or fem. "Ärztin") is the correct term for a person of that profession. It's not a term you would address someone by though.

"Doktor" is actually the term for the Ph.D. and can refer to a person with that degree of any profession. In a legal sense, it is considered part of your name, and you have the right to be addressed as "Herr Dr. Meyer"/ "Frau Dr. Müller" (though many Drs. Meyer/Müller won't insist on that). If you hear or read about "Herr Dr. Meyer" you certainly can't be sure he's a medical doctor.

In former times though, "Doktor" referred to the medical doctor just like in English. So any physician would be addressed as "Herr Doktor" (without the name). Now here's the funny part: His wife would be addressed as "Frau Doktor" even though she was neither a physician nor did she hold a Ph.D..

thank you all -- so much good information! Last night I was looking at Youtube and Buzzfeed things about typical German food that Americans would either love or hate.
(hedgehogs made out of minced raw pork? Really?) and I saw the claim about pretzels and lard in one of those -- can't find it at the moment. (I did have a feeling that some of these were like claiming that Americans eat Jello with marshmallows in it all the time.)

Many local German dialects have different words too - Franconian German in the towns around Nuremberg simply have different words... Although they will (mostly) smile and humor your efforts till you become familiar when they will try to correct you...

I have been in ski area gondolas and half off the people spoke German understandable to me(I was schooled in German in the US) and half spoke German and I had no clue what they were saying (mostly southern Bavarian, Austrian or Swiss German).

"Wouldn't it be for the German speakers to judge if the ch is more similar to "huge" or to "yes" or possibly to k or to sh?"

1.) It's OK with me if you think German "ch" sounds like "y" in yes, but Katja (German) the pronunciation teacher clearly thinks the first sound in "huge" is a better guide for learners. And that's what this is all about - practical instruction. And as a native speaker of German, unless you have the education and training that Katja clearly has, your native language skills alone do not lend you the understanding and insight needed for this kind of instruction. This is nothing against you or other Germans. It's the same here in the states. Native speakers only have so much insight based on their native abilities. If I want instruction in Spanish pronunciation, sure, I can go to any native speaker (there are millions here in California) and learn SOMETHING, but for mastery of the more difficult parts of pronunciation, I would need a real teacher who understands both the Spanish and the English sound systems fully and is trained in helping others to expand their oral skills. In fact, this kind of teacher is RARE even among most teaching staffs in this country.

2.) Being a native speaker in some cases actually handicaps you as an instructor of pronunciation. Even though you've mastered your sound system, that mastery came by acquisition, not analysis. So there are many things you do unconsciously and automatically when you speak your native language, things that you are completely unaware of - and thus many things that you cannot explain - because you don't have the training and awareness needed for that. For example, I've heard several Germans insist that the "Bad" in "Bad Wimpfen" has a voiced "d" sound, when in fact the "d" is uniformly pronounced as a voiceless "t" by Germans... in that phonetic environment, the "d" is disallowed in normal speech by the rules of German phonology. Likewise, there are thousands of instruction points that untrained native-English speakers are ignorant about and simply cannot undertake if they want to help non-natives pronounce English properly. There are certain things that all native speakers just do not and cannot grasp about their own language without studying it carefully.

I am reminded of the Scorpions' "Hurricane" lyrics...

It's early morning, the sun comes out
Last night was shaking and pretty loud

And the lead singer (Klaus Meine I think) is unable to pronounce the English "d" in loud - so it comes out as "lout", a completely different word. He probably thinks he got it right. But what he needed to get it right was the right kind of pronunciation training from a real instructor, not just his native-English-speaking companions.

@ Jackie...on gloves as "hand shoes" there are other specific examples just like that, eg, what we call a "thimble"...that's a "Fingerhut" (like a hat on one's finger" from der Finger and der Hut

What we call a "jack " (that word tell me nothing) unless I hear it has to do with a car, ie the tool you need to lift the wheel so as to change a tire. The German term describes the tool, "Wagenheber"

The video shows the very harmless version of a northern German woman speaking High German. If she would speak one of the Low German dialects you would need a third translation into High German. Low German (Plattdeutsch) is still broadcasted in northern Germany by public radio & TV stations.

@OP: If you want to know how something sounds use either dict.cc or Duden (the reference for German language).

Forget about "ch" sounds like part of "huge". And the final "ch"-challenge you will find in Swiss German with the word "Chuchichäschtli" :-)

"...one of the Low German dialects ...." you have different choices here, eg, Westfalen Platte, Niederrheinplatte, Mecklenburg Platte, Hamburg Platte. and others that make up Plattdüütsch.

The blonde girl in blue speaking Bavarian used the word "Preiss" ...not exactly complimentary, actually an insult to northerners and Prussians. True, harmless and no big deal linguistically

@Russ: Again, I am not sure what you are getting at. Disqualifying what I am saying because I am "only" a native speaker and not a trained language instructor is, excuse me for being so frank, nonsense.

I for one never learned my voiced d's and b's at the end of a word from any of my various language instructors, neither German nor English native speakers. I learned them from my native speaker friends who had no linguistic training whatsoever.

I have in fact had occasion to teach those voiced d's and b's to native German speakers who were totally unaware of there even being a difference. I am not sure complicated linguistic explanations would have helped them. What did help them was listening closely and echoing the word directly. And that's what I would recommend to anyone trying to learn a sound they don't have a "slot" for. It's basically the same thing babies do who don't have a "slot" yet for many sounds either.

It's OK with me if you think German "ch" sounds like "y" in yes, but
Katja (German) the pronunciation teacher clearly thinks the first
sound in "huge" is a better guide for learners.

Katja is free to think what she will, so are you, and so am I. As I said before: If the "huge" trick helps you with your pronunciation, by all means, go for it. It's certainly a lot better than settling for a k or a sh pronunciation. I can't imagine how it would work, the sound you need for "ich" being so closely surrounded by other sounds you don't need in "huge". But again, if it works for you, that's all that counts.

"...one of the Low German dialects ...." you have different choices
here, eg, Westfalen Platte, Niederrheinplatte, Mecklenburg Platte,
Hamburg Platte. and others that make up Plattdüütsch.

Please make that "Platt" without the "e". :-) If you talk about a "Westfalenplatte" I might expect a restaurant dinner with specialties from Westphalia, and in Mecklenburg I know only the Mecklenburgische Seenplatte. ;-)

Will be back shortly, just running out to the store for some more popcorn.

@Russ: Again, I am not sure what you are getting at. Disqualifying
what I am saying because I am "only" a native speaker and not a
trained language instructor is, excuse me for being so frank,
nonsense.

My point on this subject is that because you (or any human being) are/(is) a native speaker, your pronunciation is perfect, but your understanding of your own native phonological system is inherently imperfect. This does NOT mean that everything you teach someone using your own intuitions is unhelpful. It just means that without "metalinguistic" understanding and training, there's only so much you can do to help with certain phonological problems. And based on what you said about the "ch" and the "y" sounds, yes, I think this is one of those problems.

Since you call this "nonsense," here is a way for you to disqualify what I am saying - and to test your own native-speaker intuitions and the advice you gave about "ich" and the English "y" sound. You create an audio file whereby you actually follow your own advice and produce a /ɪy/ sound sequence (your suggested fix using they "y" sound in "yes") and then a /ɪç/ sequence (the standard IPA pronuniciation for "ich", with /ç/ representing the first sound in "huge" as demonstrated by Katja.) My prediction is that the first sequence will be impossible to make or incomprehensible as "ich", and the second will sound exactly like "ich." (There are additional ways to test your suggestion as well, if you're interested.)

I have in fact had occasion to teach those voiced d's and b's to
native German speakers who were totally unaware of there even being a
difference. I am not sure complicated linguistic explanations would
have helped them. What did help them was listening closely and echoing
the word directly.

Your anecdote supports what I said about intervention. You obviously DO have metalinguistic understanding of this problem in English and intervened in a helpful way. And my hunch is that this lesson you gave did not just spring out of your head because you speak English so well, but is one that you picked up at some point from some teacher, tutor, or other individual. Obviously, the Germans you were teaching were not yet able to master these sounds on their own. They weren't able to hear the difference between "b" and "p" in final position (as in "lab" vs. "lap") because they were trained by their German language to ignore them. But you were able to explain, model and practice as a teacher would - and this was probably helpful. Right?

It's basically the same thing babies do who don't have a "slot" yet
for many sounds either.

Oh NO, it's really not! Before these adults got your lesson on "b" and "p", they were doing what babies do... acquiring the phonological rules naturally by listening and communicating with others... Every baby, with its inherent brain/language plasticity, eventually masters these sounds perfectly, indeed, without a single pronunciation explanation or lesson! But your adult students were handicapped by their already-acquired native-language system and needed your intervention to make progress. There is a reason why babies learn the sound system perfectly and 99% of adult second-language learners keep their native-language "accents." Some features of phonology are inherently difficult and "late-acquired" for both babies and adults - but for adults, native-like acquisition is much more problematic and slower, and without intervention, they die before they've mastered certain phonological skills.

sorry about the "e"..oversight !

The former German chancellor Helmut Kohl (1982-1998) seemed to have a speech impediment. For instance he couldn't pronounce the German word "Geschichte" (history) correctly. He kept saying "Gechichte". I once asked a professor of linguistics who dealt with German dialects why that was so. He told me that in the second half of the 19th century people in the region of Ludwigshafen (in Rhineland-Palatinate nowadays) developed the habit of saying "ish" instead of "ich". At school they were told this was not correct. That is why they developed a new habit. They used the ch-sound (and they still do) even in words where the sh-sound would be correct.
For example they say "komich" instead of "komisch" or "magich" instead of "magisch". Linguists call this phenomenon hypercorrectness. But nevertheless many of them still say "ish" instead of "ich".

Thanks dermag for this information. I'm glad that I never fell for the "ish" habit.

The video would have been even more interesting if it had shown 3 instead of two speaking, the first girl speaking Hochdeutsch, the second speaking Bavarian, and a third could have been speaking, say Hessisch or Ostfriesisch (east Frisian ).

Then it would be even more linguistically enlightening

I had not heard that Kohl story.

When you grow up in a dialect that does not distinguish between the "-ch" and -sch" sounds - one that uses only the "-sch" sound for both - it's fairly easy to learn to make the "-ch" sound (as Kohl proved.) But it's VERY difficult to learn WHEN to make the "-ch" sound, and WHEN to use the "-sch" sound that you grew up with.

John Kennedy had a similar problem. His home dialect systematically drops "r" in post-vocalic position... "Car" and "Harvard" are always "cah" and Hahvud". But when this speech pattern became socially stigmatized, and he attempted to learn this "-r" sound, he learned to make it just fine - but couldn't always figure out where to make it and where leave it off. He handily changed "cah" to "car". But his speech also became peppered with post-vocalic "-r" sounds where they did not belong - "idea" became "idear"... that sort of thing.

Of course, these were not stupid people, and they were not the only ones with this problem. Pretty much ANY adult who tries to expand his native phonemic system in this way runs into the same trouble - and often NEVER gets it right. Older brains tend to be phonologically petrified, that's all. And it's the same when they learn a new language - to really master certain parts of a new sound system, adults will usually need professional intervention.

"Doktor" is actually the term for the Ph.D. and can refer to a person with that degree of any profession. In a legal sense, it is considered part of your name, and you have the right to be addressed as "Herr Dr. Meyer"/ "Frau Dr. Müller" (though many Drs. Meyer/Müller won't insist on that).

No, the "Doktor" is not part of the name, and there is no legal right to be addressed as "Doktor" - it is only considered as polite to do so. This being Germany, there are actually court decisions on the matter... It is true that the degree can be on identity cards, passports, credit cards and so on.

In former times though, "Doktor" referred to the medical doctor just like in English. So any physician would be addressed as "Herr Doktor" (without the name). Now here's the funny part: His wife would be addressed as "Frau Doktor" even though she was neither a physician nor did she hold a Ph.D..

I have heard the latter is still common in some regions, but I don't consider it as appropriate, certainly not in the 21st century (to me, that sounds like you cannot expect a woman to achieve a degree on her own, so she has to use her husband's--though in fact, the majority of medical students are women). I certainly don't address my physician as "Herr Doktor", but just use his name.

I have heard linguists say that you can't learn a new language without some accent after the age of twelve.

Anyone besides me been going around for two days saying out loud various variations of "Ich" - ish, ikh, ic-hu, i-y, eekh, etc.? Lots of strange looks from people.

I concur that children under puberty can learn languages without accent. I've read that part of the brain that learns language changes after puberty and never returns to that state. I've known Army children with German mothers and American fathers that speak both languages perfectly with the accents of their parents. I would encourage parents to immerse their children in a conversational second language at a young age. Grandparents should pitch in too as part of the education of their grandchildren.

Anyway, I am in the Oberpfalz along the Czech Republic boarder. The German dialect here has become part of the Zoigl Bier tourism as other parts of Germany do not understand the local dialects and slang. The locals get a kick out of it too. It's good fun for all especially after a bier or two.

Linguistic specialist sort Helmut Kohl's language issue in his mid carreer years into Hypercorrection, not onto where he is coming from. Interviews in very early and his late years do not show this issue.

He was a control freak in his upcoming days but got very relaxed also with media in the later years.

Linguistic specialist sort Helmut Kohl's language issue in his mid
carreer years into Hypercorrection, not onto where he is coming
from.

MarkK: As a kid, Kohl used "-sch" exclusively (in other words, for both -ch and -sch), right? Then when he discovered his speech was non-standard ("incorrect"), he switched to using "-ch" exclusively, right? (That's how I understand it from this thread.)

If so, then yes, this is normally called "hypercorrection", whereby the person overgeneralizes the use of his new sound in order to be "correct."

But "where he came from" (his home dialect) is not irrelevant since it determined his use of the non-standard "-sch" for both -sch AND -ch in the first place - did it not? I think hypercorrection is very often dialect-related since many speakers wish to abandon their dialects or to acquire standard German in addition to a local dialect.

Russ, you are free to think everything :-)

I just do not understand your felt high emotional involvement.

There's no emotional involvement on my part - only serious curiosity. I'm just trying to understand what you wrote and to figure out why you think Kohl's native dialect is not related to his hypercorrection (if that is what you think.)

I just repeated a statement from a source I read. No intention to argue this in any direction, especially not in this travel forum. From what I see there are enough relevant books on the market to research this question deeper.

I've found this thread incredibly interesting! I had no idea that the German language was so complicated, and I've enjoyed the explanations of all the knowledgeable people here.

I also had no idea that German and Bavarian were so different - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKF0HfSg_oo .

I've found this thread incredibly interesting! I had no idea that the German language was so complicated, and I've enjoyed the explanations of all the knowledgeable people here.

This may appear complicated, but German pronunciation is a lot more consistent than English pronunciation. Check out the poem "The Chaos" by Gerard Nolst Trenité if you don't believe me.

"German pronunciation is a lot more consistent than English pronunciation."

This is true if you mean that the spelling system conforms neatly to the sound system. English spelling only provides faint clues as to how a given word is pronounced; German spelling mirrors actual speech far more consistently.

"I had no idea that the German language was so complicated..."

Certain parts of German appear complicated to native English speakers (and others.) But I think that's mostly because when you're a child, learning to speak and understand English - or any other language - is so easy... not much trickier than learning to breathe. Native speakers don't realize that our own language has complex structure and rules. And in school we learn only the tiniest smattering about that complexity (generally, only the stuff that impacts improved communication skills.)

I remember being blown away in my first German classes by the German word inflections I was expected to learn. But then my first Linguistics class totally upended my view of my own language. What? The English I speak has 15 vowels, not 5? Ever since I learned the word "trial" I've been pronouncing the "t" as "ch"? And the "L" in "trial" is significantly different from the "L in "law" - and there's a rule for that??

It's probably the case that all developed languages are very complex - and probably in equal measure if all things are considered. I think it's definitely the case that what we don't know about our own language makes the details of any second language look very intimidating.

A non-English-speaking cousin of mine said during a visit: "English must be easy to learn - even the kids here can speak it".*

But I've read convincing arguments that English could be classified as a dialect of low German anyway.

*a joke, if its not obvious

Very true on the German linguistics course in upper division university German. First, you are introduced to linguistics in English, after covering that topic, you are presumably ready for German linguistics, which is the meat of the course.

RE: the video listed above, one would even hear more incomprehensible but distinct sound differences if each speaker along with the written sentences appearing as subtitles spoke not only High German and Bavarian ( as we see) but also Sächsisch, (Saxon), Hessisch (Hessen) and Schwäbisch (Swaben), plus some variation of Plattdüütsch (Low German)

Then without the High German first, you won't understand a single thing, maybe you might get a word or two, just by cognates

"...a lot more consistent...." How true !

Thanks to all for the additional comments. I'm very interested in all European languages, although still mostly focused on learning Italian.

I don't know how much of an "expert" this guy is, but I also really enjoyed this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3IImGiiY1Q .