German/Austrian vacation, Hamburg, Nurnburg, Salzburg?

I spent three nights in Hamburg a few years back, and that seemed like about enough for the city itself. However, I wasn't able to take any daytrips, and I wanted to see some of the low moorland in the vicinity.

Bavaria is the single largest state in the country. Nürnberg is a good base for exploring northern Bavaria, and likewise Munich for the southern half of the state. Either can be visited as a daytrip from the other. So, I guess it depends on what specifically interests you. Monasteries are more common in the southern half of the state, particularly in the regions of Swabia and Allgäu. NW Bavaria (Lower Franconia) is known for it's wine, the rest of the state is mostly beer country. The northern half of the state has a particularly dense network of castles, including what, in my opinion, is the single best specimen in the country, Veste Coburg (above the town of Coburg). But of course, at the foot of the Alps in the southern Bavaria, you'll find the single most famous castle in the country, if not Europe as a whole, Neuschwanstein.

My opinion is probably in the minority, but Salzburg rather underwhelmed me. It looks like a more monochromatic version of several other very colorful southern Bavarian towns (Landshut, Regensburg, Passau, Rosenheim, Burghausen). And for a city that gets so much attention, I found the Altstadt surprisingly small. About as big as a medium-sized US shopping mall.

Hi,

Unfortunately, one of the means of transport you used two years ago, the CNL night train no longer exists. There is however night train service with EN and ICE and IC also do night routes, which I took twice last May/June. As for Hamburg, what are your interests, specifically, in the area, the lower Elbe and northwards into Holstein. Logistically, from Hamburg you can direct go Lübeck, Kiel, and more into Holstein, Eutin, Plön, Heide, or Lüneburg, or eastward to Schwerin. Hamburg itself is worth visiting as the cultural center of north Germany. My advice is don't just rely on RS Germany guide...I certainly wouldn't. You can easily do the night train from Hamburg to Munich.

How do you plan on getting over to the continent from the UK? There used to be the ferry from Harwich to Cuxhaven...now gone. Prior to that was the ferry connection from Harwich to Hamburg. I took that route once but from Hamburg to Harwich.

Up until RS included Hamburg on the new Best of Germany tour, it was not on his list of places to visit.

I was there in November. For tourists, there isn't as much as many other places in Germany. However, my main reason for visiting was to see Miniature Wunderland. It was worth it.

I would skip Hamburg. It's quite pretty around the Alster and, for train buffs, the Wunderland is a one-of-a-kind spot. But I would rather spend time in Nuremberg or almost anywhere in southern Bavaria. Like Hamburg I would add Frankfurt to your "skip" list.

Nuremberg has a pretty old town and medieval castle. It also is famous for its WWII/Nazi locations such as the rally grounds, Documentation Center and the court house where Nazi big-wigs were tried after WWII. It's a must see for WWII buffs.

I like Salzburg. There is quite a lot to see in the old town - the Hohensalzburg (castle) on the hill reached by funicular and in town there is the cathedral, Mirabell Palace and gardens, Mozart's birthplace, and of course the Sound of Music Tour. I also enjoyed Hallstatt. It is a pretty little town on Hallstatt Lake. You might enjoy the salt mine tour or boat ride which are available nearby.

On a nice day the Eagle's Nest in Berchtesgaden is worth half a day and so is the Documentation Center. This Documentation Center focuses on the acquisition by Nazi leaders of most of the properties in the Obersalzburg area. It is still possible to see some of the bunkers that remain.

If you rent a car in Salzburg or Munich I recommend driving the Alpenstrasse towards Fussen. It is a very scenic road alongside the Alps. It goes through many pretty little towns and past small lakes.

Thanks guys, all interesting points of view.

For a start, I'll probably be making 2 night stops in whichever areas I decide on. Having re-watched the RS Hamburg show last night I think I'd still like to go there, not for travel to any outlying areas Fred, but mainly to see parts of the city - Hafen City, Alster, Reeperbahn, etc., as well as all the modern architecture - but also having just watched the 5 minute promo video for Miniatur Wunderland, it's kind of tipped the balance for me, as I now want to see that too! There's a good looking hostel right next to the harbor too, so that's settled.

As for getting to Hamburg, which will be my first stop, it'll have to be the bus overnight from London to Brussels, then the train onward. I wish there was a ferry from the UK, but they've all been stopped, including the Harwich to Esbjerg. The only one that I could use is the Harwich - Hook of Holland, but that takes so long, and you either sail all day and get there in the evening which is no use (no night trains from Amsterdam anymore), or you have to pay for a cabin if you sail at night, which costs almost as much again as the ticket.

Fred, you mention IC and ICE night routes that you've taken - I'm gathering that there's no Couchettes, it's just normal seats? How comfortable were you? What routes do they run? Yes, I'll be taking the Nightjet/Euronight 40491 Hamburg to Innsbruck as far as Munich, and the Euronight 466 Wiener Walzer from Salzburg to Zurich on the way to France.

I'm starting to think that Salzburg and Hallstatt can wait for another year, when I can do more of Austria. Maybe instead a 2 night stop in southern Bavaria - Perhaps Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Fussen or similar, for somewhere a bit closer to nature, or is there anywhere else more suitable as a base for exploring southern Bavaria? Like I mentioned, I've seen Neuschwanstein, but the area looks rather pretty. I could even do this after Hamburg, taking the night train all the way to Innsbruck, then nip back over the border, heading to Munich or Nuremburg a couple of days later for another 2 nights.

Anyone been to Ehrenberg castle without the use of a car? Is it worth it anyway? I won't be hiring a car, but the Alpenstrasse sounds very nice. Thanks for all the recommendations folks, I'll research them when I've got more time.

@ mike_maple....I have no problems taking night trains but do prefer sitting in the general seating area (Grossraumwagen) to a six person compartment, I mean, given a choice between the two. If the compartment is the only choice, I would still take the night train, hoping I'll get ok sitting mates. Only once did I consider it less than satisfactory, so the odds are on my side.

Yes, the IC and ICE at night don't have the couchette option, people sit and sleep as if it were a day train. Taking a day train ICE or IC for a few hours, I fall asleep anyway, most of the time. I don't know this was coincidence but the ICE night train I took from Düsseldorf to Munich had the lights on max the whole night long, slept anyway. Usually the night trains in compartments or in general seating, based on the several I've taken, the lights are dimmed or basically turned off. On how comfortable: I was, certainly did not arrive feeling zoned out, spaced out, groggy. The coming trip in starting in mid-May has already two night train rides factored in, so as to squeeze out a couple of more days. There might be a third going from Vienna to Poland on the EN, I'll see

The routes I've taken most recently at night are Hamburg-Munich, Frankfurt-Vienna, Paris-Munich (gone now), Hannover-Paris (gone now), Munich to Berlin via Hannover, and Düsseldorf to Linz via Munich. I would suggest taking the EuroStar to Brussels, then use the Inter-Rail to get to Hamburg. Where are you staying in Hamburg? The HI hostel is one stop from Hamburg Hbf at Landungsbrücken.

Part 2 here....Are you tracking down WW2 sites in the Hamburg area and beyond? Just depends how far you want to go up north...numerous sites. There is also the camp memorial near Hamburg and other historical sights if you're into that.

Hi Fred, yes, I'll be staying at the hostel near the Landungsbrucken stop, it certainly looks a fine position, but then you do get to stay in some fantastic places hosteling!

Good call on the Eurostar - it seems that since January you can use Interrail/Eurail passes on it, albeit paying a 30 euro passholder fare. Makes it comparable, price wise, to the coach, which is only £21 London to Brussels but 8 hours! I can now do the whole run from Leicester to Hamburg in half a day! Means I'll get there about 21:00, but also means I can shave off a day! So I'll have 2 full days in Hamburg, which should be enough for what I want to do. I'm not tracking down WWII sites, to answer your question, although I was certainly interested in what Berlin had to offer in both WWII and Cold war sites, it's not my top reason for coming to Germany.

Concerning the night trains, I'm definitely a couchette person, as I'm a heavy sleeper so can cope with other passengers, plus I like to lie flat. I've been travelling by coach to Europe for a few years now, and it's not the most comfortable position to try and sleep in - I won't miss it! I did try and find any overnight train from Brussels to Hamburg, but there wasn't anything obvious, plus this way I only use one day of Interrail travelling. Very sad to see the night trains petering out though. They're just so great for backpacking! Even when your train to Berlin is 3 hours late and you finally get aboard at 02:00....

Still looking for ideas of what to do in southern Bavaria if anyone has the knowledge - Is Fussen going to be an interesting enough stay when you've already seen the castles?

I find Hamburg very underrated. It's a great city to stroll through. Most was bombed out in WW2 but they rebuilt it very well. As you may know, Hamburg is home of the Reeperbahn in the St. Pauli neighborhood. It's basically Amsterdam's Red Light District times 2. Even if that isn't your thing, it is quite the cultural experience to walk through and see a strip club connected to a McDonald's. Also, Hamburg is within 30 minutes of 2 great old German cities. Lubeck and Luneberg, which were both untouched by the wars. Well worth it.

The water is another cool part of Hamburg. As Germany's main port, its fun to walk along the water and see the ships coming in. They also offer boat tours through the canals. So I say check it out if you can.

Hope this helps. Have fun!

@ mike_maple....The Hi Hostel at Landungsbrücken (same U and S-Bahn stop) serves dinner, good hot food for under 7 Euro. Dinner at the HI hostels is open to the public, no one will ask for you HI membership or anything when you say you would to buy buy a meal ticket. In 2009 I was staying in a hotel across from Hamburg Hbf, went over to the HI hostel to have dinner. There is a private independent hostel "Generator" at the corner, Steinweg and Kirchenallee, check the exact locations, still it's ca 4-5 min walk across from the Hbf. The main difference is that HI hostel cater to school groups, whereas the private ones like Generator are filled with college kids, millennials to retirees. If you want to avoid school kids, don't stay at HI hostels.

On the availability of night trains: there are lots of them in Central and east central Europe with Munich and Budapest as hubs. One may need to be a little creative with the routes and you'll get your night train connection.

In the war Lübeck was one of the first targets of the British night bombing campaign aimed at residential areas.

Thanks Fred and Thomas,

Yes, I'm not visiting Hamburg for the red light district, but it would be interesting to take an evening stroll, especially as there's theatres and all sorts of other entertainment venues in that district. I'll certainly be taking the harbour tour as well, I'd imagine that takes in some of the canals. Doubt I'll have time to visit anywhere outside of the city while I'm staying there though my itinerary isn't fixed as yet.

I'll be travelling in late July (maybe August) like I did two years ago. I stayed in the DJH hostels then at Bacharach, Berlin and Munich Park, they seemed to be OK, I guess you don't get school trips in midsummer, although plenty families. I usually prefer HI hostels when I can get them, as they're usually a good standard - I tend to stay away from independent city hostels, especially ones that are too youth orientated - I've had bad experiences with people crashing in drunk at all hours. The Generator one looks alright though.

Yes I did get creative with my route to Hamburg, but in the end a night train (from Mannheim) would have meant 2 of my Interrail travelling days. I think the daytime travel option works best for me on this part of the journey. I'll get 2 night trains later in the trip anyway. You're right in that the night trains are more to the east, nothing from Brussels or Paris going east these days it seems.

mike_maple asks: Still looking for ideas of what to do in southern Bavaria if anyone has the knowledge - Is Fussen going to be an interesting enough stay when you've already seen the castles?

I did not find Fussen itself offered much once you have seen Neuschwanstein and Hohenschwangau. There are a few things that are close to Fussen that might interest you.

The view of Neuschwanstein (and the plains and lakes beyond it) from the Marienbrucke is excellent. It can be reached by a bus from Fussen. The bridge had been closed for a while but re-opened in 2016.

There is a cable car, the Tegelbergbahn, that takes you to a high vantage point and excellent view. There is a hiking trail down from the top (you could also walk up if you are so inclined) with a great view of Neuschwanstein. (I have not actually done this but am basing these comments on a local who has.)

Also nearby is Wieskirche. The interior of the church is spectacular. I was impressed.

Slightly further away is Linderhof Palace, another of King Ludwig II's follies. It was his hunting lodge. The grounds of the palace are beautiful.

Beyond Oberammergau and Linderhof, on the Alpenstrasse to Berchtesgaden and Salzburg, are numerous cute little towns and pretty lakes. And, of course, you are travelling through the foothills of the Alps so the mountain scenery is spectacular.

@ Mike...From what I've seen at hostels both HI and independent ones, there seems to be more private groups (eg, a women's group) and families at HI hostels, kids and parents, all German. I saw that in 2009 in the Dresden, Hamburg, Weimar and Berlin HI hostels.

Thanks Trinitony for the run-down of what the region has to offer. The Alpenstrasse sounds very nice and it'd be good to visit some of those towns and villages, but without a car, it doesn't look easy - is there one base do you think which you could stay and visit some of these places from? I've been reading this thread and naturally many of the cute towns etc, don't have train connections between them, making the bus the only choice - to do a daytrip between some of these places from Munich sounds a little bit risky.

As for Fussen, I've been on the Marienbrucken when I visited the castles in 2015 - It may have been partially closed, I can't remember, but certainly enough to see Neuschwanstein from it. I also went on the Tegelberg luge - though not the cable car - got the bus to it, had one quick go and then walked to Hohenschwangau. So I guess Fussen can be disregarded this year. As for Ludwig's other palaces, can't say I'm that interested, although I'd wanted to see Neuschwanstein for years.

Fred, you're right, it is mainly Germans at the HI Hostels. I might give Generator a go in Hamburg as it looks decent.

@ Mike...On the hostels it's a trade-off, the HI hostels serve a hot dinner, have a curfew and have school groups. The private independent hostel have no curfew, likely to run into screamers at midnight in the hallway (somehow I've missed that encounter so far), or drunks. At the Dresden HI hostel where I stayed three nights, both at breakfast and dinner for travelers not in groups you had to eat in a separate room (Für Einzelreisenden) from groups. There is where you met families, solo and couples, it was all German, in some ways it reminded me of some HI hostels I stayed in Germany 40 years ago...great for linguistic reasons.

The "Generator" in Hamburg is closer to the Hbf than is the HI hostel at Landungsbrücken, which you have to take the subway.

So, after a bit of a break, here's where I am:
Train from UK to Hamburg, including eurostar.
2 nights in Hamburg
Night train to Munich
2 nights in Munich - (1 day in Nuremburg, 1 day Diessen am Ammersee - Herrsching - Andechs Monastery, 1 day in Berchtesgaden) Heading to Salzburg from Berchtesgaden for night train to Zurich.

This still leaves me with another 2 night stop somewhere in Germany or Austria - if anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them, bearing in mind I've already seen Berlin, Munich itself, Fussen, Rothenburg, Heidelberg, and the Rhine

Any recommendations for hostels in Munich? I stayed at Munich Park last time, but would rather stay nearer the Hauptbahnhof as I'll be daytripping a lot.

Thanks!

@ Mike...I stayed at the Wombats in 2009 in a dorm room, a private independent hostel, located a few mins from the Hbf (main train station), take the Bayerstraße exit. The most central HI hostel is that located on Wendl-Dietrich Straße. As you know the well known age limit rule in HI hostels in Bavaria was abolished in 2009.

On the same block as Wombats are three other private hostels but they (two?) have an max age limit of 35. I would choose Wombats, better location than the HI on Wendl-Dietrich. If you want to meet Germans, then don't choose Wombats...all foreigners, lots of Americans, and other anglophones, etc. The Hamburg-Munich route by night train is fine, I've done it a few times, pleasant and satisfactory.

"...rather stay nearer the Hauptbahnof...." So do I. I stay in a Pension across from the Hbf. There are numerous small hotels and Pensionen in the Hbf area if you want a break from hostels, such as those located on Schillerstraße. The HI hostel on Wendl-Dietrich Str. is far from the train station. I've stayed there before.

Yes, I didn't like the look of the HI Hostel in the centre, the newer Munich Park Hi Hostel was good, though this time I'd rather stay nearer the station for obvious reasons. I'll give Wombat's a try as it seems to get good reviews. Thanks for the tip re pensiones etc - have to say though, B&B's, Guesthouses and such I really don't like - I think it's to do with staying in someone's home makes me uncomfortable.

Any other destinations you'd recommend? The Black Forest seems to be the only place that sticks out as a possibility to me - have you any experience?

@ Mike....The difference in Germany between a small hotel and a Pension is that the building in which the Pension is located may have 4 to 6 floors with the Pension occupying only 2 or 3 floors. The other floors hold private offices, such as that of physicians, a tax consultant (Steuerberater), some other professional, or the owner may live on one of the floors.

In Germany the rooms at a Pension are en suite or, still, with the WC or shower down the hall, just as they were over 40 years ago, just depends. I still stay in those. There is such a Pension near the Munich Hbf. Staying at Wombats has its pros and cons, basically a trade-off. Rooms (dorm and private) are en suite, laundry facilities are available, great service and helpfulness, lockers in the rooms. The con might be hearing some wracko screaming at midnight or so running down the hall but my response is ...so what? Yes, I've experienced that. On day trip recommendations from Munich, my recommendations of towns all pertain to seeing historical "stuff" but that isn't top priority for you, otherewise, I'd recommend Ingolstadt, Augsburg, Ulm, Bad Ischl (Austria), aside from Berchtesgaden and Salzburg, or when you're close to the Black Forest, my recommendations is Rastatt

Thanks again, Fred, not decided on the Black Forest as yet, still just playing around with possible destinations. I've just gone through the previous posts in this thread, now thinking that I might stay another night in Hamburg and do a daytrip to Lubeck's old town, shame to go so far north and only see a modern city.

OK, questions for Bavaria experts...
Would Berchtesgaden be worth an overnight stop to see more of it? There seems to be a lot more of interest than just the Kehlsteinhaus, for instance, the Konigsee/Obersee, Luge, old town etc. Even a few hours in Salzburg if I've had enough...

If I go ahead with that, then there's only 1 extra day trip to find from Munich. I'm thinking south... any further recommendations?