Frankfurt-Rhine-Castles-Salzburg: Train or Car?

Train also allows both people to enjoy the wine. Riding the ship down the Rhine gives one of the best views and if you have a car, you would have to train back to get it.

Best ride on the ship is between Rüdesheim or Bingen ending in Boppard, or perhaps St. Goar.

Agree with Jo. Cost matters as well. Below are sample fares for 2 adults for 4 days of train travel:

1.) FRA airport - Bingen for cruise to St. Goar: standard RMV fare E16.50
2.) Day passes for day trips along the Rhine and Mosel: E22.10 VRM mini-group ticket x 2 days = E44.10
3.) St. Goar - Salzburg by train: E48 (pre-purchased saver fare from DB, sample date October 6.)

total: E108.60

VS. CAR: Fuel alone is E70 just for journeys 1 & 3 above, plus an undetermined amount for day trips under #2. No way you can cover fuel, a rental for 4 days, insurance, parking fees, vignette fees for anything near E108.60.

Thanks for the input! What website are you using for the train info?

Train sites:
DB (German Railways) itinerary search page for St. Goar - Salzburg fares, and all train schedules. Saver fares are capacity-controlled so price varies depending on departure time and how far in advance you purchase.
http://www.rmv.de/auskunft/bin/jp/query.exe/en?application=TARIFFONLY for FRA airport - Bingen fare
Rhine area day pass fares

I am intimidated by the multiple different train systems in Germany. There's no substitute for experience but is there a website where I can at least somewhat educate myself?

Also, isn't a car needed to do smaller side trips?

What "sites" do you want to visit? Before we can give a good "train vs. car" answer, it would help to know where you want to go, what you want to see and do.

Germany really only has one national rail company Deutsche Bahn. There are also some regional rail systems that are run by individual city transit networks, but Deutsche Bahn's ticketing system covers just about all of them.

If you have any German rail questions, I have found for English-language inquiries, this helpline is probably the best source on the internet. Mainly because regular posters Lee and Russ know the system so well. Although I don't always agree with their opinions on the constant question of "rail vs. auto", for answering questions about routes and ticketing, there are no better English-language sources on the internet. And they look up the information free of charge!

liv2ski, google up the website - The Man in Seat 61, and it will help with understanding how the rail system works. Once you are there, you won't even notice the difference between the rail systems. Its all integrated and seamless.

"I am intimidated by the multiple different train systems in Germany."

So are the Germans, at times! I'll attempt a little primer...

Actually, they are complementary systems. DB (German Railways) sells tickets (and provides prices at the DB website) for long-distance journeys on high-speed trains and for SOME of the other slower train journeys for shorter distances on regional and local trains - specifically, when those trains cross over boundaries between transit regions within Germany.

There are a LOT of these small transit regions in Germany. Each has a governing transit authority (usually with a 3-letter acronym.) They sell tickets and have their own pricing for short-distance journeys on regional and local trains within those regions. In Germany they are normally called "Verkehrsverbuende" - you can see all of them on this map, where they are outlined by bold black lines:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Karte_der_Verkehrsverb%C3%BCnde_und_Tarifverb%C3%BCnde_in_Deutschland_(inkl._Legende).png

(The sort-of-brown lines are state (Laender) borders. Each state has several regional transit authorities.)

Within some regional transit authorities there are also smaller entities that cover city buses and subways, etc. The map shows these as well.

Anyway, train stations in Germany have ticket machines for both DB and regional transit tickets- either "combo" ticket machines that sell both DB tickets and regional transit authority tickets, or separate machines.
This photo taken at Boppard's station shows a combo machine with both DB and VRM tickets and a 2nd machine with VRM tickets only.

So if you are staying in Boppard, for example, and you want to make a trip over to Cochem, which is also within the VRM transit authority, you could use either machine, as both have the VRM logo. If you try to buy a ticket to Mainz from the VRM only machcine, you won't have much luck because Mainz is in a different transit region... so you could buy the ticket from the DB machine instead.

The problem is that you won't know which towns are in which transit region. Germans don't always know this either. So if you can't get a ticket from a transit authority machine, try a DB machine instead - or vice-versa - that's what Germans have to do at times.

The Man in Seat 61 doesn't deal with small regions and transit authorities, just the national rail systems.

If you have specific journeys you need help with, feel free to ask. You might not get an answer right away, but you'll get an answer eventually, and with a bit of luck it will be correct.

Tom is way sweet. Aw shucks.

Thanks so much for your Primer Russ! I understand much better now. And the bit about which machine to purchase a ticket from will come in handy.

If we travel from Frankfurt, stopping for a break in Baden Baden (perhaps ride the funicular) and then on to Furtwangen's German Clock Museum via the Extended Black Forest Drive, isn't that best done by car? Or can you just as easily take the train?

Comparing the time on the Bahn website to the time on ViaMichelin for Baden-Baden to the museum in Furtwangen, going by train and bus via Triberg takes the same time as driving (assuming no stops or holdups). However, taking the train on the Schwarzwaldbahn means the driver gets to see some of the spectacular scenery instead of watching the road.

Frankfurt - Baden-Baden - Furtwangen... "isn't that best done by car?"

Assuming smooth progress for both options, the car for this route will probably be faster and more convenient. I'm guessing you will not be relaxing in B-B at the train station but instead several miles from the train station in the B-B town center, which will require an additional bus ride between the station and the center (and another one to return to the station of course.) B-B has an unusually poorly-located train station.

That said, this day involves a LOT of miles. The car time estimate doesn't include picking up the car, fuel stops, stops for snacks or coffee, locating parking and fussing with parking ticket machines, potty stops, traffic detours or delays, or "stopping on a whim" as you put it (which is impractical anyway with long travel days like this.) It's just theoretical time. (Snack/drink/grocery runs involve no extra travel time at all for train users - buy these things at the station - and picnic on the train while you're traveling at 100+ mph.) There are variables that just can't be accounted for in advance with car travel - some with trains too but more with cars. The real world of driving involves more time than estimates indicate.

I think Frankfurt-Furtwangen would be a good trip by train + bus. Lee makes a good point about both of you being able to enjoy the scenery - the Schwarzwaldbahn is one of Germany's premier train routes. Using a direct routing, it's just over 4.5 hours with one change of train (30-min. layover) in Offenburg and one change to the bus in Villingen. Where to stop over?? Not any longer than needed in Offenburg IMO. VILLINGEN, however, is a completely delightful old walled town that is overlooked in Rick Steves' book. Another great option is GENGENBACH. G'bach is just outside Offenburg, and like Villingen it's on the Schwarzwaldbahn train line you'll be taking anyway. Both towns have close-in stations. Villingen has lockers at the station in case you haven't packed according to Rick's guidelines (Gengenbach TI office may hold bags for you - most TI's do.)

Gengenbach: http://www.orte-bw.de/grafik/uploads/10557_2010_1040.JPG
Villingen: http://www.tourismus-vs.de/en/views-of-the-city/sights/villingen.html

Rick's books have a LOT of really good info but sometimes I think he is overly effusive about certain destinations. Baden-Baden is one of those - IME and IMO it is terribly overrated (unless you're really into mud treatments and gambling.)

ALSO: are you staying in Furtwangen? It and 140 other small Black Forest towns offer the KONUS card as a come-on. You get free transportation around the BF and discounts at area attractions during your stay. Ask for the card from your innkeeper.

Great info! Thank you! It sounds like the train might be the most relaxing, instead of a car...

So...we arrive Frankfut at 7:00a the Sunday 24th and have nothing scheduled the entire day, and no plans for lodging that night. On the 25th we would like to stop at the Zepplin Museum in Friedrichshafen and we have lodging that night near the Castle's. Baden Baden does NOT entice us as we are not much for spas and don't gamble. We very much enjoy the out of doors. I will definitely investigate the two websites for the smaller towns. If you have any other itinerary suggestions, they would be greatly appreciated since I had better at least get lodging pinned down...

AND now that I'm not renting a car, should I purchase a Bahn Card?

"...we arrive Frankfut at 7:00a the Sunday 24th and have nothing scheduled the entire day, and no plans for lodging that night. On the 25th we would like to stop at the Zepplin Museum in Friedrichshafen and we have lodging that night near the Castle's."

??? Whoa. I'm confused. So how is it you have nothing planned for Day 1? You said you were first going to the Rhine (which to all of us means the old-world towns of Ruedesheim/Bingen/St. Goar/Boppard etc., probably a river cruise and some castle tours.) But now it seems you didn't mean any of that about the Rhine - and your plan may be to SKIP the Rhine and the castles there altogether. Instead, it seems you're thinking you'll travel SOUTH from FRA into the Black Forest on Day 1 (Sunday) and on Monday end up at Germany's border with Switzerland in Friedrichshafen, and overnight "near the Castle's" - ??? By this I assume you do not mean the Meersburg Castle near Friedrichshafen, but instead the Fuessen-area "castles" (Neuschwanstein, Hohenschwangau, etc.) If that's the case... and if you're talking arrival on the 24th of THIS month... then you might plan on taking the 8:53 from FRA to Villingen (arrive 12:05) or Donaueschingen (12:15) - drop bags at hotel - and then making your way to Furtwangen - and back later that day. The next day, train onward (another 6 hours or so) to the Fuessen area.

But IMO - if by "castles" you're saying Fuessen is your goal- you are rushing way, way too quickly past way too many of Germany's most interesting places - with the goal of spending 30 minutes touring N'stein (not a castle but a late 19th-century palace decorated to look like a castle) and maybe some time in H'schwangau.

Given your apparent time constraints, it would IMO be much wiser to drop the Fuessen-area reservation and spend your first 2 days and nights in the Middle Rhine Valley from FRA - only an hour or so away - where besides the river cruise, you have a collection of handsome old-world villages, 40 real castles in 40 miles of scenic river scenery, chairlift rides to scenic lookouts, and more. South of Mainz in Speyer is the Technik-Museum. If you are headed to Fuessen or Salzburg after the Rhine, Speyer is en route using the high-speed, long-distance trains that will get you to the extreme south of Germany more quickly.

Alternatively - just get on a train at FRA on the 24th and head toward Fuessen for Day 1; if the trip seems too long, break it up in Augsburg or wherever - and travel on Day 2 to Fuessen and your reserved hotel. There is a lot of hiking and good scenery in that area. (You wouldn't want to drive this far after an international flight - that's for sure.) But like I said - your zooming right past some great places if you do this.

Oh dear, I 'm so sorry for the confusion...Here's the big picture:
July 22 & 23: Berlin - overnight both nights in Berlin

24: Fly to Frankfurt arriving at 8am - day is open - overnight ?

25: Morning:open Afternoon: Zepplin Museum (my husbands request) - overnight in Schwangau

26: Morning: Neuschanstein & Hohenschwangau, Afternoon: luge & explore - overnight in Schwangau

27: Morning: Dauchau (my sons request) Afternoon: to Salzburg & Mozart Dinner Concert in the evening - overnight in Salzburg

28: Morning: pick up our daughter from school near Branau. Afternoon: Eagles nest - overnight in Salzburg

29: Morning: To Nurenburg Afternoon: Nazi Documentation Center & Rally grounds then to Rothenburg, evening Night Watchman Tour - overnight in Rothenburg

30: Rothenburg to Frankfurt (drop off car if we have one) and on to the Bingen Itinerary you suggested.

I hope this clarifies things. Our daughter requested we schedule Bingen after we pick her up so she could be along. However, we are certainly open to spending time on the 24th/25th in the Rhine as well. Personally, I would skip Neuschwanstein but my husband and son have never been there...I'm sure it will be mobbed with tourists, but it would be easy for me to give up one of the nights there...

I realize this is a VERY ambitious itinerary so your suggestions are welcome - especially focusing on the 24th & 25th. Thank you, thank you!

I can give you a 100 suggestions for Frankfurt, but you need to tell me what you are interested in seeing.

We are not much for big cities but more for out-of-doors - easy to moderate hiking, chairlifts, etc. All while working our way to Friedrichshafen.

Also, if this is all traveled by train, shouldn't I purchase the German Rail Pass? We are two adults and one 22y/o, picking up a 21 y/o on July 28 making us four persons from then on...

Trains: It's quite late to be hunting down inexpensive train fares for the multitude of destinations you've put on your plate. German Rail passes might work for you, but with so many train trips, you have a lot of work to do to determine the feasibility of each of those journeys.

"I realize this is a VERY ambitious itinerary so your suggestions are welcome..."

If you were planting yourselves in, say, 2-3 different places over those eight days, and doing manageable day trips from those places, the entire trip would be more plan-able and doable, especially if you're using trains. That's about all I can suggest. But you seem to have "musts" scattered around rather widely. So my suggestion would involve radical changes...

If you were going to cut some destinations and sights, I'd encourage you to pick ONE WW II experience - not Berlin + Nuremberg + Eagles Nest + Dachau. The emphasis on this dark but brief part of German history is disproportionately large. I'd also cut places that put you disproportionately in the company of other tourists - Rothenburg and/or the Fuessen area, for example. The Zeppelin Museum merits reconsideration because of its outlying location as well (that said, Lake Constance is a terrific place to spend a few days.) Along with your short time in Berlin, changes like this would yield more doability and give your group a better picture of modern and historical Germany.

"We are not much for big cities but more for out-of-doors - easy to moderate hiking, chairlifts, etc."

3-4 nights on the Rhine, 3-4 nights in Berchtesgaden/Salzburg, and a 1-night stopover in between somewhere - this would be an example of what I'd suggest - and it would better accommodate your love of the out-of-doors.

If you will be keeping your present itinerary (and adding to it after your arrival in Frankfurt) then I'd probably just rent a car at this point and hope for the best.

Thank you for your thoughts Russ - much appreciated. I will try and whittle things down a bit...

The abridged itinerary I suggested would simplify your planning and your transport a lot (but of course I have no idea what you've got in the way of room reservations or how tricky they might be to change.) Here's a default plan for you using public transport. For the prices you see below you would need to pre-purchase (like NOW) only 1 or 2 DB train tickets for 4 adults (#2, maybe #4 below.) The rest can be bought as you go.

1.) FRA International (where you fly in - right?? Or is it Frankfurt HAHN??) to Bingen on 7/24 takes an hour and costs E28 total for the family (group day ticket or Gruppentageskarte from ticket machine at FRA's Regionalbahnhof station.)

2.) Leave Bingen for Salzburg on W or Th am (miraculously, I see a fare of E88 total for 4 adults - still available for prepurchase at DB for the Thur 7/28 8:24 departure - trip takes 6.5 hours; or leave Wed 7/27 at the same time for E172 total. Normal fare is almost E500.)

3.) Leave Salzburg on Sa 7/30 for (one night in Wuerzburg) on a Bayern Ticket day pass, E36 total for 4, buy at ticket machine in Salzburg. W'burg is a train hub that makes getting to FRA or elsewhere very easy. You could stop over on this day in Munich, Nuremberg or Rothenburg on the way to W'burg

4.) You're flying out of FRA?? - on 7/31?? 8/1?? You can get there on the Weekend Ticket (E52 total, buy at ticket machine.) If you need to get there fast, use long-distance trains (1.5 hours, pre-purchase a saver fare from DB - I see morning fares on 7/31 of E76/4 adults.

So for this streamlined trip your basic travel legs are covered for E200-E300 total. Additionally you'd pay out of pocket as you go for day trips within the Rhine region and within the Salzburg/B'gaden area (figure less than E40/day for day passes that cover your family.)

So...a brief sketch of how you'd spend your time in the Rhine and then in Salzburg?

Sure.

Rhine/Mosel: possible day trip destinations... Marksburg (medieval) Castle in Braubach. Burg Eltz Castle near Moselkern. Rhine River cruise. Open-air museum in Bad Sobernheim. WW II museum in Remagen ("Bridge at Remagen".) Old world villages of Boppard, Cochem, Ruedesheim (all 3 have chairlifts,) Gedeonseck terrace overlooking Boppard and the Rhine (near top of chairlift. Bacharach, and its neighbor, Oberwesel. Summer bobsled run in Sankt Goarshausen. Hiking the Rhine Castle trail (Rheinburgenweg) or the Rheinsteig trail.

Salzburg/Berchtesgaden: possible day trips... Koenigssee. Mountain lifts and hiking around Koenigssee. Hohenwerfen Castle tour and falconry show. Eagles Nest. Hallstatt, Austria. Ice caves. Salt mines. Herrenchiemsee Palace - on an island in Lake Chiemsee. Salzburg itself.

Even the abridged version is incredibly ambitious. It suggests that you will never return to Germany again. (I'm not bragging, but I like Germany a lot, and have been to different sections over at least 5 trips. It's a big country, with a lot of variety.) I personally would not combine Frankfurt/Rhine with Bavaria and Innsbruck.

I'm a great believer in public transportation, but I would ask whether you are Americans used to the freedom of a mighty steel steed? That's because getting to a train station, getting your luggage into the racks and your butts into the seats, then the reverse and local transportation on a nearly daily basis is emotionally, physically, and time-consuming. Even if you have the car, the trip plan is like an American family planning to see New England on a a long weekend. (I don't mean that thought to sound rude, but I'm trying to express in a concise way that your plan is too hard if you have never been to Europe before. Have you.) But (with a car, anyway), you need a GPS, a standard-transmission, probably, and some highways you've never been on. You can do these things by train in Europe, but not at the last minute. I'm not talking about advance-discounts, I'm talking about the last 10 miles to each "sight" that is a must-see on your list.

I'm not flogging the car rental idea, but some of the destinations you have named are much faster and easier by car - for example Dachau Concentration Camp. I shouldn't go back to your OP at this point, but I've found that "whims" don't work on road trips in Europe. It's always at least 20 minutes from the highway to the sight, and then you have to search for a parking location, and negotiate much closer quarters than in the US, where there's room for a Chevy Suburban everywhere!

There are plenty of things to do around Munich, but Berlin alone is good for a week. And it's so nice to walk back to your own hotel and the same room a few days in a row. (Personal opinion. But what do you think about that?)

Thanks so very much for your time and suggestions Russ...I am grateful!

And Tim, your thoughts are appreciated as well! Yes, I have been to Germany before and each time by car. By stopping on a whim - that's exactly what would happen. We would drive until we got bored, find the closest available hotel and stop for the day. Then explore around on bikes or by foot. Of course, the trip always had surprises and we slept in the car more than once. LOL This trip I have people with me who aren't quite so spontaneous (and dont want to drive a car in Germany) so I'm trying to do a bit of homework ahead of time. Russ has been an incredible help to me as this will be my first time to the Rhine and I have no experience with the train system. So yes, I am giving a huge shout-out to Russ and all of you who are so generous with your time and suggestions. Thank you!

I get Tim's point. I acknowledge that the Rhine + Salzburg/B'gaden involves some long train rides. But with these 2 main bases, you aren't traveling nearly as many miles, and not moving your stuff every day or every other day. There's nothing too tricky about getting to the station at FRA or in the small Rhine towns, and the same is true if you book wisely (near the station) in Salzburg and Wuerzburg. Also - you want to emphasize nature and the outdoors - and these two scenic areas were on your rather large wish list - and with them, you will get some genuine variety in terms of terrain and culture.