First trip to Germany. Kind of a "shotgun" post.

Welcome to this newsboard with your first post. For the sake of getting responses, you may wish to repost in the list-form of your actual proposed itinerary. It is very hard to follow your stream-of-consciousness thinking about what is a VERY busy, lots-of-train-time, schedule.

I don't know if the dayboats have started by May 1 (online schedules to download), but the scenic middle-Rhine is an obvious choice from Frankfurt, Bingen to Boppard. Do not miss the Roman museum also walkable from the cathedral or HBF in Cologne. Caution, the underground Praetorium has been closed for renovation this year. Check their schedule. I personally did not care for it, but you might consider the Roman rebuilt (very modern) fort in Saalburg. The "Roman Limes" are (I think) a very rural UNESCO WHS involving overgrown forest hiking.

You have already changed your tickets, but I would have flown out of Berlin, to avoid retracing your steps. I personally don't care for Munich, so I would leave that out.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/germany/can-i-see-enough-of-cologne

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/baltic-germany-fachwerke-landesgartenschau

So here is what it looks like to me:

Sept. 14: Fly into Frankfurt
Sept. 18: Travel to Munich
Sept. 19: Travel back to Frankfurt
Sept. 20: Travel to Berlin
Sept. 22: Travel back to Frankfurt.
Sept. 24: Travel to Trier (is this just a day trip over overnight?)
Sept. 25: Travel to Cologne (same question as above)
Sept. 26: Be in Frankfurt for flight back to US

So you have a total of 12 nights there. I will admit that my head is swimming a bit. Why do you keep wanting to go back to Frankfurt? It would be much easier (and cheaper) to just go from one new place to the next. For example, you could spend the first 3 nights in Frankfurt, then travel to Munich on Sept. 17, spend 2-3 nights there (leaving before Oktoberfest starts, which would be good), then head north to Berlin for 3-4 nights, then continue to to Cologne, where you could stay for a few nights and take a day trip to Trier, then back to Frankfurt for your flight back.

Or something else but do you get the idea? You are really wasting a lot of time returning to Frankfurt with each new destination. Or maybe I'm missing something?

ETA: I noticed you only have one night in Munich. If that's all you want to spend there, I would just skip it like Tim suggested. You could easily spend your time in Frankfurt, Berlin and then the Rhine area, which is gorgeous with a lot of history and castles and beautiful scenery. You could base yourself there for 5 nights and take day trips to Trier and Cologne. Or spend 3 nights in the Rhine and then a couple of nights in Cologne as they're not all that far apart.

Two extra days in Frankfurt does not mean at all that you have to spend the time there, if you really don't want to. If not, then I would suggest going to the Rhineland area, say Bad Ems but don't transfer in Koblenz, more likely of a delay and too crowded, better in Limburg.

As a first timer, do factor in glitches when using DB, it can be unnerving and taxing if you don't know what you're doing. My first timer in Germany, I intentionally skipped Frankfurt. Looking back I probably should not have done that. Not until the 2nd trip did I see Frankfurt.

Tim - Ill fix the OP and make the itinerary more legible ty. I thought about a river tour but packed the itinerary a bit much to make that possible. Now I might have a chance.

The roman museum ( the actual building) is also closed. They have a temporary exhibition in the Belgian house. Not as expansive but still the right idea. If I dont spend all my time at the cathedral, that was a place to go for sure. Cologne was kind of shoehorned in because I thought I had too many days in frankfurt (see below response to the other poster)

Mardee - First, Im from Thunder Bay just north of you!

Trier and Cologne are only day trips yes. Im going to Cologne specifically for the cathedral, so a day is really all the time I need. Anything else I see there is just gravy. Trier... I probably couldve spent 2 days there but I only really want to see the Roman sites. Even with a schedule given plenty of time Ill have time to see everything and not be super rushed. Kind of a bonus, my return train ticket was cancelled so I can take any train back to Frankfurt. So I now have more time there. The train to cologne is at 7 am. For me that is quite late.

I chose Frankfurt because its generally in the middle. Its a major transit hub for trains but especially planes. it makes the outgoing and return trips MUCH easier to plan, cheaper to pay for, and have back up flights in case there are disruptions (or in this case missed connections). I hate having to haul my things around, having to wait for check in time to stash my bags, not being allowed in some places because of to big of baggage etc. Id much rather have a central place to go from and keep my things there, even if it does cost me some extra cash. And even though I did say I am having problems filling time there, I DO have quite a few things to do there. There are a ridiculous amount of museums and even some roman sites in the city to see.

And munich? The glypthotek has been a bucket list museum for me to see for years. I couldnt go to germany and not see it (same with the pergammon but unfortunately its closed :( ) I like the way the city looks, and ill be able to see/get the vibe of oktoberfest without actually being in the thick of it. And that is exactly why Im only spending a day. The hotel prices were absolutely rediculous. I managed to find one for 100 canadian a night, right near the HBF, but every day before or after was upwards of 500 canadian. I get there about 10 am, and leave at 6pm the next day so I have '2" days there. Plenty of time. And now, I might have 2 days in Frankfurt without any real plans, so I am looking around the area ( Rhineland too) to explore a bit. I made a mistake in the OP ill fix, even if I get there late the 14th, ill still have 2 extra days that I have no real plans for besides maybe seeing mainz. Those are the days im most worried about filling in.

We've traveled Germany many times--often going up the Rhine River to Cologne, Koblenz and Bacharach--and over to Munich and into the Austrian Alps. I was in Frankfurt last year, and it's simply not a place I care to spend time in. I also had airline connection problems there as I was returning from Israel.

We were in Berlin right at the end of the pandemic. We found Museum Island's museums to not be close to the great museums of Vienna, Amsterdam or Paris. We did go out to Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp on a day trip, but it wasn't as well developed as other such encampments. And we found Berlin to be very modern for the most part--including an abundance of Vietnamese restaurants. I would rather spend more time in Munich and Bavaria and Salzburg than in Berlin.

We took a two hour train ride down to Dresden, and that's where we found the magnificent museums and really good German restaurants. It was perhaps Europe's most beautiful city until the bombings at the end of WWII. We'll be back to see the rest of the mountainous Saxony region. Dresden is the real Germany.

Fred - Exactly! That is why I am asking for suggestions around Frankfurt (2 ish hour train ride is fine for me) Now I at least have time to see mainz.
I have already experienced problems with DB. 2 trips have been cancelled. However Ive used transit in Italy and... if youve ever been there they run on italy time. 10 minutes? 15 minutes? Its ok itll eventually show up! The transit is absolutely abysmal where I am from and there is no way its as bad as here. However I am fully prepared to have to rush to another platform in order to board a train to where I am going.

David - I was really thinking hard about dresden. I ended up choosing Munich instead. That is good to know though ill keep it in mind for the next time. I know Frankfurt airport can be a bit much and I actively avoid it when flying to other european destinations. However the fact that there are so many connections back to Toronto is the exact reason why I decided to be centered in Frankfurt.

Also, just to explain the trains. I absolutely love taking trains and travelling when travelling. IMO its part of the experience and Id get to see places and sites I might not see other wise. Just a personal preference!

Sept. 20 & 21 - Berlin is so much more than museums - if you spend all your time on Museum Island you'll have missed Berlin.

Rick Steves has several good walking tours in the guidebook.

Sites related to WWII history and the Soviet period & Wall are fascinating. Checkpoint Charlie is a waste of time unless you happen to be walking by.

If someone came away from Berlin with the impression that it was too modern, then they missed the good parts. Although, the modern Hauptbahnhof is amazing, as is the Reichstag dome.

MarkCW - I "shouldnt" be spending all my time on museum island. Thats all I have planned. I was thinking of walking towards the HBF after and exploring a bit. I know there are some sections of the wall somewhat near the HBF and related sites. Id also be walking through old East into West berlin so ill get to see the contrast and alexandrplatz. Im also staying in charlottenburg which has its own cool things to see as well.

I'm not trying to sound mean, but there is a reason nobody travels around Germany in this "hub and spoke" system. It's just a really bad concept. You're solving one problem by creating 10 others. The real solution is just to pack lighter.

And while Frankfurt has its defenders, I still maintain it's not a "destination" city on this short of a trip. You're spending almost half of your actual sightseeing time in Frankfurt. I don't know of anyone outside of the Frankfurt Chamber of Commerce who would recommend that. ;-)

I would try to fly open jaws but if you don't like that idea or if you're locked in already, you can circle back to Frankfurt at the end of your travels.

Try to eliminate backtracking and time spent on trains. Think about what types of things you really want to see and experience in Germany. Do you want to fly to Germany to see, what I am sure is a wonderful natural history museum, or do you want to do something more "German"? In other words - Can you get your natural history fix closer to home? Only you can decide that for you.

I'm sorry if this post sounds scoldy. It's hard to convey emotion using just written words. I realize everyone travels differently. I just honestly think your concept makes poor use of your very limited and expensive time in Germany. But you're a grownup, so whatever you do decide, I hope you have a grand adventure.

pencilstealer, well, what a coincidence! I was just talking about Thunder Bay a few days ago as a couple of my grandkids are trying to talk me into going up there (which we will probably do—just not sure when).

Oh, I see now. So you are planning to book a hotel/apartment/something in Frankfort for the whole time and then travel around while still keeping some of your stuff there? Hey, if it works for you, that's a good idea. This is your trip, after all, and ultimately your decision where you go.

I will say that if you stay 2 nights in Cologne, that will give you time for a day trip to Aachen. I loved Aachen. It is a quick 30 minute train ride away and its cathedral is quite beautiful (especially the interior, which is drop-dead gorgeous) and houses the remains of Charlemagne, leader of the Holy Roman Empire. The town is also very charming and has a lovely vibe to it. It's smaller than Cologne and you could easily spend some time just walking around and enjoying the sites. Don't miss the Granus tower, which is next to the Rathaus (town hall) and is one of the few pieces remaining from Charlemagne’s palace. It dates back to the 8th century, making it over 1200 years old.

Did you say Roman sites?

Trier, of course. The Roman museum and sites in Cologne, yes. Mainz, also yes for the sites, but too bad Ancient Seafaring and Roman museum is not open until some time in spring 2025.

So what else? IMO, the Limes Germanicus. Saalburg Fortress outside of Bad Homburg, which is about an hour north of Frankfurt is excellent. Can be reached via bus with a little planning. There are also a number of towers that can be visited, logistics on thes is tougher and I have not visited any.

Hey Chris thanks for the response! I wouldn't be asking for opinions if I wasn't prepared for people who disagree or have other ideas. You don't sound mean at all don't worry. However I am going to have to kindly disagree although I do understand what you're saying

I do pack quite light. A backpack and a gym bag.

Also keep in mind I was originally going to be there the 17th to 26. With only the 17th, half the 22nd and 23rd in frankfurt. I am only travelling the 14th now because of a flight change. I wasn't spending this much time in frankfurt. And now that I am, I am trying to fill the time better and that is why I'm asking for places around there to visit. I was more than likely going to mainz anyways. So other than the 14th (just in case) I now have the 15th and 16th extra due to that flight change. That unfortunately happened last minute. So I'm trying to do the best I can with it. Most likely I'll be in frankfurt for 3 days other than sleep.

I already am seeing many things I want to see. For me that's museums and historical sites. I'm kinda in the middle of nowhere (16 hr drive away from toronto) so that kind of culture isn't really common here. And as explained train trips are part of the experience for me. Even if I didn't back track to frankfurt, I'd maybe get a few hours here and there extra since I would still end up spending a few days in frankfurt and the area.

And who knows. Each trip is a learning experience. If it helps I already have a trip to France in the works and I was planning on taking a more straight lined loop on that trip (something like paris lyon nieme, Marseille nice and back to paris).

Regardless I still appreciate your response and your opinion

Mardee - Weather is very similar here as it is in duluth so if weather is your concern base it on duluth. Id suggest June personally (may long weekend is just brutal driving wise)

I completely forgot about Aachen! I already have the cologne dates locked in, however, its only an hr and 45 minutes from frankfurt! Ill have to keep that in mind. Thanks for the reminder! Thats more than dooable as a day trip.

JKH - Definitely heading to trier! And Bad Homburg just so happens to fall into the Frankfurt transit zone and there is a train that heads that way. Ill take a closer look!

Good to know about the weather! And I forgot to mention that if you do get to Aachen, don't forget to look up at Barbarossa's Chandelier in the cathedral. It's huge and was commissioned by Frederick Barbarossa to celebrate Charlemagne's canonization in the mid-twelfth century.

You have limited days. In your situation I would skip going back to Frankfurt on the 19th. That Munich- Frankfurt train corridor is awful, regardless of which direction. Always crowded, jam packed ICE trains, a seat reservation only solves part of the problem. What luggage space above your seat? Don't be surprised if someone has barged in on it.

I would take the night train Munich to Berlin on the night of the 18th. For me, no problem at all taking night trains without the sleeper option, don't need it.

If your travel style allows that, ( and it's depend on that, doesn't it?) , take the night train. I choose the night train so that I can squeeze out an extra day of traveling.

I too am confused about the zig-zag of your plan. Stay in Frankfurt for a couple of days (yes, there is plenty to see here that match your interests) then move on. I prefer a circular way of travel unless you are using a city as a hub for day trips, which you can use in this case, but short day trips.

For Frankfurt, certainly head over to the Historic Museum and the Archeology museum, but you may want to check out the Judengasse Museum built on top of the medieval Jewish Ghetto. Head to the Saalburg Roman fort near Bad Homburg or also the Hessen Park Open Air Musuem which is close by. If you like Barbarossa, perhaps visit one of his palace ruins in Gelnhausen, about a 30 min. ride from Frankfurt. He has another palace ruin but much smaller in Seligenstadt which is also about 1 hour from Frankfurt.
In Mainz, get off at the Römisches Theater stop to see the ampitheater, but look for the Isis temple in downtown Mainz. There are Roman sites all over this area of Germany and many towns are along the Limes and have leftover towers and walls.

If you really want to see more of the Germany not frequented by international tourists and Americans, lots of places fit the bill where you won't encounter them at all , no Americans, anglophones, bus tours, etc. The only visitors you'll see , if any, will be German.

Go to cities and towns in North Germany and in the east, such as Kiel, Husum, Schleswig, Magdeburg, Weimar, Jena, Prenzlau, Frankfurt an der Oder, Burg, Werder an der Havel, Rheinsberg, Ludwigslust, Greifswald, Babelsberg, etc. etc.

Quite different , you'll see and feel the difference, all sociologically and culturally interesting and revealing.

If I understand this you have booked accommodations in Frankfurt and want to keep returning there....We have splurged by staying overnight while still having our accommodations in the other city. For example we stayed overnight in Beauyaux Normandy but did not check out of our Paris hotel. Took a backpack. I think you would get more out if your trip if you overnighted in Berlin .

You keep going back and forth to Frankfurt. This isn't an efficient use of money or time.

Fred - Most train tickets are booked and so are hotels so most of the day(s) trips are set in stone. I did think of taking night trains. I used to take the greyhound across canada so having to sit in a standard seat/transfer wouldnt be an issue. I do have seat reservations and I only plan on travelling with a backpack (part of the advantage of having a base in frankfurt) so luggage space on trains isnt a problem at all.

I also dont really have any expectations on what germany is "supposed" to be like. I try not to when travelling. I dont want paris syndrome. The only things I expect are good food, famous/historic sites and new experiences. However I wouldnt mind seeing more of "typical" germany and if time allows ill see if I can head up north for a day or 2. The flight from my city to toronto is always late so I dont want to plan much those 3 extra days in case I get to frankfurt later than I expect. But its kind of nice to have a few days to wing it. Thanks for the suggestions!

MS.Jo - Its nice to hear some good things about frankfurt. What a city is/isnt tends to be subjective so while ill take peoples opinion into account, I wont take it as gospel. its a good city to stay in and go around the general area because it does have some really cool areas and history (just like the ones you suggested). The way the trip worked out is just the way it did. It happens. Im not going to dwell on it. Although as I said I do love trips within trips, and absolutely love train rides so the time spent going back and fourth isnt a big deal to me. travel styles are also subjective so what one person prefers wont be what others prefer.

Dianejay - that is one of the main reasons I chose to keep going back. its just easier than having to haul everything with out IMO.

geovagriffith - Well then its a good thing I wasnt asking for an itinerary critique eh :) ? Its kind of funny because some people said the same thing about my trip to greece (day trips from athens to rhodes and heraklion) And guess what? I had probably the best trip ive taken. Sure I couldve then (and this trip) spent more time in each place, but then I wouldnt be able to go to as many places I want to see. And if i have to chose between seeing somewhere in a short time and not seeing it at all, I will always choose to see it regardless of time and the method of getting there. I might only get to see germany once. Life isnt a guarantee so id rather see what I can with the time given than not at all. And that is purely a subjective decision. And how we travel is purely subjective too. Sometimes trips just work out this way and judging someones itinerary when not asked isnt adding to the discussion or even polite. I asked of there were any suggestions for the extra 2/3 days I should have at the beginning of the trip, or things I may have missed in the places im going. If you have any suggestions in that case id love to hear them

I was in Frankfurt last week. I actually drove through there as I had not yet returned my rental. My wife and I both agreed that scheduling only a few hours of our trip there was far more than enough.
We did visit the ruins in Gelnhausen and other nearby attractions (my wife was drawn to the Hexenturm)., but there wasn't anything about Frankfurt that stood out for us in a positive way. In a negative way, yes. We (and everyone) were stopped on the A44 while a van of police knabbed and physically tossed a person into the van, and then near the HBF/Opera we were fascinated to see the amount of police presence there trying to manage what is obviously a bit of a shady underbelly.
We enjoyed a decent meal and left. I would not (unless accompanied by a guide like Ms. Jo) return there except out of absolute necessity. That was my opinion 50 years ago, ongoing for the last 30 years and still now. There are so many better places to call home in Germany. I would be making significant changes to this itinerary.
We also flew into Frankfurt, but we went immediately to the train station and took a train to Erfurt. We stayed there for two nights before travelling to Berlin. I would do that again. In Erfurt I learned about mistreatment of the Jews that I had not previously known. It cast a different spin on our eventual visit to Dachau.
There are some good restaurants there in Erfurd and there is lot's of good beer..

The OP has made it clear, I think, that's he is not looking to change his itinerary, so maybe we could help him with what he asks. It sounds like he is well-traveled and knows what he's doing, and just because others don't travel like that is no reason to bash his plans.

With regards to Nuremberg, it certainly could be done as a day trip, albeit a somewhat long one as the train trip would be around 2 hours. But it's well worth a visit. I spent 4 nights there in 2022 and really enjoyed my stay. Part of the stay involved a day trip to Regensburg and another to Bamberg, but there is plenty to see in Nuremberg itself, including all the WWII historical sites that sit outside of the Aldstadt.

@ pencilstealer....Thanks for the reply. Taking a night train direct (ie, no changing at 3 AM or something disagreeable like that ) for 8.5-10 hours will be nothing new to you since you have the "Greyhound across Canada" experience, similar to my taking Greyhound from SF to LA for 10 hrs. Given the two, however, I much prefer the night train ride in a compartment or in general seating for the same duration.

Be optimistic ...the next trip in Germany you can focus on North Germany and the eastern towns and cities, other than those that attract the most international visitors, Berlin and Dresden. The key is to visit and explore those that do not. If you know German, all the better.

Off Topic Alert!
We always traveled through Thunder Bay on our way up to Ignace fishing. A stopover at Kakabaka Falls was a great spot for the kids to burn off some energy from being trapped in the backseat for six hours. (I was youngest so backseat middle)

I was actually thinking of a weekend in Chicago if they have seasonal direct flights. The Museum of Natural History has been a sentimental favorite of mine since I was a kid.

Mardee - Thanks! Im pretty sure we can see other people travel plans and find something that makes us go " what ? really?" and thats fine. I also dont mind people saying their opinions of certain places. I like to be informed and there are a lot of well traveled people on this forum. And thanks for the tips on nuremburg. I have lots to think about.

Fred - In greece I avoided night (boat) ferrys and opted to take planes to save some time, having never actually taken a farry before. I did take one from athens to aegina and boy was I mad that I didnt book more. I couldve slept on the regular seats like nothing. And thats not being able to sleep on a bus or plane! I can see a train being more comfertable. I might end up taking some trips on a whim so ill keep the night trains in mind! Originally I wanted to go to Paris ( 4 hours on ICE) but if I go on a whim a night train would definitely save some time!

I do try to be optimistic. However working in long term care has made me realistic at the same time. And not to get to "real" but seeing people in their last moments and having them talk about regrets etc has made me want to see as much of the world as possible, with the realization we have limited time. So I travel like Ill never be able to go to that place again although still making plans to do so!

Chris - Its always good to hear about people coming through here. Were kind of in the middle of nowhere yet to get east to west/vice versa you have to at least pass through the area.

@ pencilstealer...Re: "going on a night train on a whim. " A few comments.

Not always so easy, I don't mean the ticket price. It's getting the seat reservation in 2nd class in a compartment or in the general seating area, depending on the train. OeBB has compartments, 6 seats per compartment.

Based on the experiences of last summer's trip and that of this summer, night trains do sell out. I've had that experience 4 times all together based on these 2 most recent trips. This notion that they don't sell out is a myth.

When you board presumably at its staring point, you see how packed the train gets, maybe your 6 seat compartment will end up having 5-6 occupants, including yourself, and that's not counting those boarding at 3AM or so, if the route includes that. Last summer I tried reserving a seat 2 weeks out on the night train to Vienna, was told that the departure on that date was totally sold out....just my luck.

This time the luck was a bit better, was told that the Berlin-Offenburg IC night train had only 10 seats left. A close call, I got one of them. Upon departure from Berlin Hbf, my coach was 95% full, when the train linked up with that night train in Leipzig at mid-night or so (Zugvereinigung), more folks got on. Some didn't get a seat reservation, so they got "bumped" by those boarding in Leipzig Hbf. Being bumped you absolutely want to avoid , all the more so with luggage in tow.